6SpeedTA95

Oh yeah one more thing...ever heard of Audi? might wanna see what they've done with diesel in racing...

And the BMW 335D? Wanna talk about powerband, 425lbft of torque...even motor trend called it excessive...

cwhsu

of course!..........I lost you wayyyyyyyyyyy long time ago but sure looks like you know ur stuff ive read ur post 5 times now and still trying o figure out somethings

6SpeedTA95

The original poster wasn't completely wrong and said they spoke in "general" terms but I mean come on, this is a car board, lets be realistic here...

If you have question or want to understand things ASK! Thats why this is a message board, for discussion, learning and debate...

JimHolloman

Making general statements about turbo charged engines leads to invalid statements. But, it is safe to say that a turbo charged engine will have more power than a non-turbo charged of the same size, and weight -- once the turbo adds boost. It is also safe to say that in producing the extra power, the turbo increases cylinder pressure, engine stress, and engine heat. Beyond that, turbo powered cars are a lot like hybird cars. They come with many different characteristics. Some have the dreaded turbo lag. Some are designed for efficiency (improved mileage). Some are using turbos for higher performance. A car with a small turbo charged engine will often be underpowered until the turbo spools up -- and then it zooms. Did your WRX have a turbo? If so, then you know how the delivery of power is different from the NA TSX.

Personally, I am not a fan of turbos for everyday use. Most that I have driven have the very annoying turbo lag -- followed by the zoom. But, I have never driven a twin turbo BMW. But, if you are power hungry then a turbo is the way to get power without adding a lot of weight. But, I am not power hungry. I am perfectly capable of getting speeding tickets in a TSX -- so 300 HP is not needed. Nor, is the corresponding decrease in gas mileage. I don't care for the increased engine stress as a result of turbo boost -- I want my engines to last. Now, if I lived in mile high Denver, I might have a different view point.

Driving style. I spend a lot more time on two-lane mountain roads than on Interstate highways -- roads where 15 MPH curves are mixed with 50 MPH straight sections. I get behind SUV's and vans that go 5 MPH on the curves and then shoot up to 60 MPH on any section of straight road that will allow passing. Well, the straight sections are not that long -- so, I get to 6,200 RPM's real fast by dropping to 2nd gear and then I shift at about 6,800-7,000 RPM's. It is incredible at how many drivers will make it difficult for you to pass them. Occasionally, a driver will try to stay with me after I pass them. I guess their egos are too big. Ever seen a SUV entering a 20 MPH curve at 60 MPH? Sometimes you can smell the brakes -- on the SUV -- not the TSX. The broad power band, and RPM range, of the TSX makes it easy to have the power when you need it without shifting gears at an inconvenient time. I will drop a gear, or two, before I enter a curve, and then get on the throttle near the apex of the curve when going up a mountain. Coming down a mountain, I simply upshift at the apex without applying any throttle. From Newfoundland Gap on US-441 I can travel about 15 miles in either direction without touching the brakes nor the throttle -- providing there is no traffic in front, nor behind, of me. I simply control my speed with the gears.

For some photos, see:
http://www.jlhpgms.com/cImages/TSX
http://www.jlhpgms.com/cImages/LS
http://www.jlhpgms.com/cImages/SmokyMountains
http://www.tailofthedragon.com/

JimHolloman

A lot has been said regarding both:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/2004/0...-is-better.htm

http://www.caranddriver.com/features..._it_out_column

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pushrod

https://www.fordmuscle.com/forums/al...m-engines.html

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives...rophet_de.html

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...engine-11.html

http://theautoprophet.blogspot.com/2...=1153762440000

http://www.autotropolis.com/wiki/ind...ead_Cam_Engine

6SpeedTA95

And I could post a dozen links telling you why it comes down to engineering, rotating mass and a host of other issues that go into engine building, ESPECIALLY for street cars...

I also find it hilarious you keep bragging about one of the biggest weaknesses of the TSX...its "power band". The TSX power band is pretty narrow, in fact its the biggest criticism of anyone who owns one that has experience with other cars as well as most respected automotive journalist. Almost everyone agrees it needed the VTEC switchover at least 1,000 rpm sooner (see hondata) and in addition numerous others think it just flat needed another 30 to 40 horsepower to match the superb chassis that honda has provided in the vehicle. The TSX doesn't have a broad power band, it has a smooth engine with SHORT gearing, don't confuse short gearing with a power band, there is a difference I can assure you.

And this is coming from someone who absolutely loves the TSX, i think its a brilliant car and I do plan on owning one.

JimHolloman

Okay, let me say then -- its broad RPM range.

> i think its a brilliant car and I do plan on owning one

Wouldn't you prefer a car with a pushrod (OHV) engine over one with a OHC engine?

6SpeedTA95

Thats a good question and it depends on the vehicle...I've driven plenty of pushrod based cars and owned them as well. My wants/needs for a daily driver have changed a bit. When I was younger I was all about horsepower, didn't really care much about handling. As I began racing both quarter mile and SCCA events my exposure to other types of vehicles helped me to appreciate just about any car if it was a good car. Stock civic SI's to 1200 horsepower chevelles, I really just love cars in general.

Right now I want something refined and quiet inside, with responsive steering and good feedback along with a firm suspension that lends itself to sporty driving. This is especially true after driving my wife's mazda3 extensively. it lacks refinement but the gearbox, suspension are fantastic, it is a blast to drive despite its lack of power.

I think if I really wanted to spend some money I'd wait and pickup a slightly used pontiac G8 GXP. The G8 is a tremendous vehicle, lots of power, great suspension, phenomenal brakes and damn good steering...oh and did I mention the fantastic V8? The problem is you have to get an auto, i refuse to drive an auto, the GXP has a 6MT available.

But I don't want to drop 28 to 30k on what a used GXP would set me back. I will be paying cash for whatever I get next and its just hard to stomach paying 30 grand for a car. 20k however is much easier to swallow, I love the TSX, its gearbox, suspension, its gas mileage is decent and I have loved honda motors since the mid 90s integras showed up.

I've always been drawn to high revving motors even if they lack a bit on the low end. I've got a little experience building motors and helping build up motors and I always leaned toward the higher revving side.

I had built/spec'd a motor for my IROCZ 302 cu in, TPI car with custom runners, custom upper/lower intake and a 54mm twin throttle body. Basically the motor was designed to rev to about 7000 with most of the power delivery coming between 3000 and 7000, would have been blast to drive...but then i decided my dad and grandpa were right and I shouldn't drop that kinda money on a motor build in college, so I canned the idea.

So basically I just like cars, I personally believe honda builds the best overall vehicle on the market right now. They offer great reliability and they're generally a blast to drive. The TSX is a perfect example of good engineering, refinement and a tight fun to drive package with 4 doors (I've always been a fan of sedans and hatchbacks for some reason).

It's really hard to go wrong with a honda product and I do plan on driving the car fairly hard and it will also be a DD, honda reliability is the best in the world in my opinion especially for people who like to drive hard.

Honda builds the best 4 cylinders in the world, BMW the best 6's and GM the best V8s.

cwhsu

So basically I just like cars, I personally believe honda builds the best overall vehicle on the market right now. They offer great reliability and they're generally a blast to drive. The TSX is a perfect example of good engineering, refinement and a tight fun to drive package with 4 doors (I've always been a fan of sedans and hatchbacks for some reason).

It's really hard to go wrong with a honda product and I do plan on driving the car fairly hard and it will also be a DD, honda reliability is the best in the world in my opinion especially for people who like to drive hard.

Honda builds the best 4 cylinders in the world, BMW the best 6's and GM the best V8s.


I agree, reason i traded in the WRX was cause im getting married and the lady can't drive stick~ frankly if an emergency came up or something i couldn't see her driving that car with my child in it~ wouldn't want her to, plus i had done mods and was planning to do more modding~ with the tsx im not really so aggressive about modding and its got everything i need.

go acura.

JimHolloman

I would fully agree.

The TSX is the first OHC engine that I have owned; previously I have always had pushrod (OHV) engines. I have driven, but never owned, a side value car (a flat head). My first car was a 1964 Cyclone with a 289 cubic inch OHV engine that weighed a ton. It produced 190 HP. Today, I have the light weight TSX engine producing 205 HP with less than half the weight of the Cyclone engine. The huge GTO engine, at 389 cubic inches, produced only 400 HP (stock was 350 HP). I get half that with the completely stock, 147 cubic inch, TSX engine. The more the engine weighs, the more the car has to weigh.

If I purchased a large, heavy vehicle, I would look for a V8 -- or at least a OHV V6. If I needed to pull a boat or a trailer, I would look for a V8 or a diesel. But, for handling, agility, and pure pleasure of driving in the mountains, I want a small, light weight, rev happy, OHC 4 or 6 cylinder. Thus, the TSX fits my desires better than anything else within my price range (the BMW's, IMO, are too expensive to buy and maintain). And, the TSX is well suited for Interstate driving, as well.

Honda makes the best 4 cylinder engines, and IMO, the TSX engine is the cream of the crop. But, Toyota, also makes very good 4 cylinder engines.

Few cars these days have OHV engines outside of GM and Ford. So, the question of OHV vs OHC is coming down to what brand. And the OHC Northstar is generally considered the best V8 produced by GM -- even though the LS engines have an excellent reputation and more power -- and certainly more torque. It used to be all about power and torque. Today, it is as much about weight, handling, smoothness, noise, and responsiveness as raw power and torque. In those categories, and IMO, the OHC engine has the edge.

The OHV engines that are hurting GM's image is not so much the current generation V8's, but the 3800 V6. While some people like the 3800, there is a large number of people that find the engine to be very unsatisfying -- for whatever reason(s). And, in any context we ought to remind ourselves that limited production, high cost, cars ought to be excluded (let's say over 36K dollars). I don't know the numbers, but I suspect GM has produced twice as many 3800 powered automobiles as V8 powered automobiles (with SUV's and trucks being excluded) with a price tag under 36K.

6SpeedTA95

You seem to think the LSx engines are heavy, they are not, infact DOHC motors are heavier than OHV motors if they're made from the same materials. The problem is people think OHV motors are made of iron, that may be true if its in a heavy duty application but in cars they rarely are...the corvette motor is made of aluminum. In heavy duty applications or really big power applications aluminum can have some downsides...so that is why you still see some cast iron blocks. Remember DOHC has more parts and more mass than OHV, so if the engines are fabricated from the same material the OHV motor is lighter.

Compare the ZR1 engine to the regular corvette engine. Look at the heads on a DOHC motor compared with an OHV motor, the DOHC motor has much bigger heads to house the camshafts...you have 4 camshafts instead of one, more valves, more lifters, more springs, etc...

Also the 3800 V6 is a fantastic motor and basically bullet proof. The 3400 on th eother was a large pile of crap that had a ton of gasket and intake issues.
GM's 3400 DOHC motor of the early/mid 90s wasn't a bad piece but lacked the refinement of its japanese counterparts, but it had good top end power.

Yeah the Northstar motor is not bad but the problem is GM basically abandoned the technology for 5 years, now they're playing catchup again. Remember those DOHC northstar motors came out in 1993 I think? Great, GREAT motor...then they barely updated it with model changes until 2002 and even then it was a mild updating. Now they're trying to catchup on that front, I think they should drop the LSx motors into the caddy's. The LSx is light, free revving and builds LOTS of power across the entire RPM range. Which is good ina big heavy sedan.


You had a GTO? What year? Also keep in mind power ratings back in the 60s were grossly inflated as a general rule and you've gotta cut that rated power by 35% to get an equivelent rating today. So that 400hp GTO was probably more like 280 today. Modern engine technology regardless of OHV/DOHC/OHC is just amazing, even compared with 20 years ago. Look at how far the corvette has come since computers allowed for true FI. 1985 350cu in TPI cars were the beginning of the new muscle car era, we're still in it. The TSX has more power than my IROCZ, granted it doesn' thave nearly the torque and the Iroc would be quicker out of the hole, but from a roll the TSX would obliterate it.

JimHolloman

> You had a GTO? What year?

1966 -- a dark, metallic blue with white vinyl interior that had the rib pattern and gold highlights.

Yep, it had torque. Touch the throttle at a traffic light (with the brakes applied) and twist the car -- or else pull one of the motor mounts apart. I got a ticket once for spinning the wheels when I was trying NOT to spin the wheels -- the road was slippery and the bias ply tires had poor traction. But, the tires still squealed a little too much.

I put 240,000 miles on it -- and sold it about 5 years ago for twice what I paid for it. I had a dozen people wanting to buy it. One person got my address from the highway patrol. Another offered to swap a new Cadillac for it.

IMO, the 1 Gen TSX is destined to become a collector's car.

JimHolloman

I was either in the GTO or the Cyclone when a motor mount broke. It allowed the engine to twist, resulting in the automatic application of full throttle. That was unnerving until the motor (a car has an engine but uses motor mounts) decided to return to its normal position.

6SpeedTA95

I think the Gen1's could be come like the Integra GSR's, highly sought after.