CJams

So... Nikki's running like crap...

2005 TSX SSM Nav AT 130,988miles 31mpg still!!!
Oil change at least every 14,000miles.... maybe 18,000....


She burns a little oil and I have a monster daily commute so she was running low on oil. As I was driving last weekend the check engine light came on with the VSA light. I kept driving it that way and started to run a little low on gas. While at the mall I poured a quart of oil in her and her immune system kicked in and the lights eventually went off. A day or 2 later as I pulled in to my garage she sputtered a bit since it was almost empty and my driveway is uphill. Got it in to the garage and she started to really sputter. I shut her off. I thought it was because of low gas, but I think it was a combination of low oil, low gas, and old plugs that confused her ECU causing her to run rich and foul out the plugs.

I can't complain since I got 130,988 miles out of the original plugs. My F-150 gave me 106,000 so I set a new personal record.

I removed the plugs and cleaned them using degreaser and an ultasonic cleaner. Here are the pics. I'm thinking about throwing them back in to see how many more miles I can get out of them... frugal-tsxer.com

Here are the pics taken by a microscope camera at work:

Plugs 1-4 left to right as you look at engine from the front of the car.

Plug 1 Before and after ultrasonic degreasing


Plug 2


Plug 3


Plug 4



They still need some cleaning if I want to try and reuse them. The gap as found was 0.041" on one of them. I check them again when I get back to the house.

But 130,988... That's damn impressive! What's the record?

well that sucks... pics dont work...

SG81

iTrader: (1)

i went 230k KM (approx 138k miles) on my original spark plugs in my CL-S. when i took them out, they were really clean still and people who saw them said i could clean them and put them back. but i changed them of course.

edit: and i'd change yours. they're not expensive

curls

Cyls 2, 3, 4 might have some pretty significant blow-by or valve leakage based on the jet-black appearance. They should be tan/grey to indicate optimal running conditions.

Change 'em. They're about $10 each and I wouldn't run those back in my car, especially for only $40. While you're at it, look at doing some factory maintenance and/or increase your oil change intervals to prevent any sludge from building up - it could be causing your undesireable oil consumption and spark plug fouling.

CJams

Just bought a new set... $64.00 Ugghhh.... Laser Iridium Premium NGKs.

Thanks guys. Plug 1 was sanded a little before I put it in the ultrasonic so it looks cleaner than the rest. I'm going to clean the old plugs and put them back in at first so she can recalibrate her ECU. Once it runs a little smoother i'll throw the new plugs in so I don't foul them out right off the bat. I sooo wanted 150kmiles out of them.

LuvMyTSX

Awesome. I'm nowhere near your mileage on my 04. My girl's only got just under 61k. She'll be able to stretch her legs on the highway tomorrow, though. We're moving to NY and she's packed to the brim right now.

Oh yeah, I second increasing your oil change interval. 10k at the most is my recommendation. I do mostly REALLY short trips and hardly any highway driving, so I do mine every 5k.

Itchytoe

I gotta agree on the smaller change interval. I drive 40,000 miles a year, 33,000 of which are on the interstate and I won't go over 10,000 miles between changes. An oil change isn't that expensive, and it can't hurt.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

I'd also recommend on the shorter oil change interval unless you have oil analysis done for your particular driving condition and the oil used.

Btw, I'm still on the original set of plugs since the car was purchased new. Then again, it doesn't have nearly as many miles as yours.

Tsx536

Nice to see some of the old school members in this thread

Yeah, I would definitely change those plugs out. You can get brand new replacement plugs on Ebay for about $40.

CJams

Plugs fouled because timing chain slipped. Uggghhh.... OBDII sensor reads "Cam A sensor error".

Compression test shows 140psi or more in each chamber.

I unbolted the chain autotensioner via the cover behond the passenger wheel and was able to get enough slack to pull the chain off of the 2 cam gears. I reset the cam gears to the postition suggested in the manual and placed the chain back on them. Also started with the main pulley top dead center with the middle of the 3 lines lined up with the arrow on the block.

Cranks, but she wont start though. Fuel flow has been confirmed to the injector rail and when I crank her, she tries to ignite, but then stops. It's like she gets the first taste of the gas, but nothing else.

On the Main Pulley there is a single notch sitting next to 3 notches. I ligned up the middle of the 3 notches to the arrow, should I have aligned the extra line to the arrow instead?

Also, I reset the OBD system with the OBD reader. Is there anything else that may need to be reset? Something after the compression test?

JTSOOOOOO...... Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wasn't planning on using the chain for long, I just wanted ot re-time it to make sure before I purchased a new one.

And yes, more frequent oil changes will be in order, holy sludge batman!

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Did you disable the fuel pump before the compression test? Just trying to rule out the cylinders being flooded.

curls

Hey CJams,

I'm looking at a service manual now, and if I understand your description correctly of the crank pulley marks, and the diagram is correct, there should be two larger "notches", with the right-most one having two minor notches near it. The diagram says to line up the LEFTMOST notch (a large notch) with the arrow. So if the crank pulley was set with the left notch aligned with the arrow, the other notches would be found slightly clockwise of there.

This could be why you are not getting her to fire up -- timing might be off.

curls

Also I assume you're lining up the cams properly -- exhaust cam marks at 12 and 3 o'clock, and the intake cam at 9 and 12 o'clock. The marks at 3 and 9 should line up perfectly. The top (12 o'clock) marks sit slightly clockwise of vertical but they aren't of concern - the 3 and 9 marks are.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

^^
The crank pulley should be at TDC, large notch on the left when view from the front of the pulley.

Also, the old oil and sludge could have caused oil pressure problem to the tensioner, resulting the jumping of the timing chain.

Miamicarfan

CJams or anyone:



I have several questions:

1) When you say, "timing chain slipped" is this the same thing as saying timing chain is stretched? Or are these 2 different problems?

2) Before you changed the spark plugs, did the car start properly but ran rough? or did it also fail to start before you changed plugs?

3) Do you think the timing chain already slipped BEFORE you changed the plugs or do you think it slipped AFTER changing plugs?

kaliraver69

Man, and I thought mine looked old when I replaced them at 60,xxx miles Glad you replaced them now and definitely change the oil more often

CJams

So I think I set the timing wrong then. I set the main pulley to the center of the 3 notches to the right instead of the left so it's slightly off.

Sequence of events:

1. Check Engine light came on.
2. Was low on oil so I added oil.
3. After driving for a while the light went off.
4. Light came back on and had to drive about 10-15 miles to get home.
5. Was low on gas pulling up the driveway and it started to sputter.
6. Pulled it in the garage and turned it off.
7. Didn't mess with it for the night and tried to start it the next morning.
8. Wouldn't start easily and when it did crank it ran like ass and wouldn't go over 3krpm.
9. Bought OBDII computer and started trouble shooting.
10. Error P0341 with message Cam A Sensor Error (Timing off)
11. Pulled out the oil mix sensor/relay dealy, tested it and put it back in.
12. Tried to start it and it didn't
13. Pulled valve cover to find timming out by like 45-90 deg it seemed.
14. openned auto tensioner cap and unbolted auto tensioner. That gave enough play to remove the chain from the cam gears, set the gears and replace the chain. I also had to remove the upper chain guide. but too bad I set the main pulley incorrectly. Time to redo it.

So my question since I don't have a bunch of time to research right now is...

Does the chain realy strech or do the chain guides wear out? In the battle of plastic vs steel, I think the steel would win. Has anyone done any research on new chain and old/streched chain lengths? If I crack the case to replace this chain, i'm replacing all 5 parts in there! Anyone know which piece wears the most? I just saw an after market chain tensioner for like $290....wtf over?

Here are the 5 pieces in question. I'd say the right (Really left) guide rail wears the most since it puts the most tension on the chain.

Any ideas?

curls

Since it's a wet chain and doesn't have sharp edges contacting the plastic, I'd say that the wear on the plastic is rather minimal and I wouldn't bother unless you notice severe scratching/scoring on the guides.

Miamicarfan

CJams:

There have been other members of this forum with your problem. I remember following this thread a couple of years ago with Sauceman.........

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...t=timing+chain

JTso

iTrader: (2)

CJams, here's a TSB that talks about your tensioner problem (page 2).

http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/B090900.PDF

CJams

^^^Yeah, I'm the second to last post on that thread right now. Was at 112,000 then

ck123

dont be surprised to see low oil if you run 14k oil change intervals....
i hope you're on synthetic if you run it that long....how much are you burning?

CJams

Always synthetic!! 130mile commutes burn oil and a loose oil filter didn't help. It was leaking from the bottom. I've been running +13k mile oil changes since '97 or longer in all my vehicles. I remove the mileage sticker and ask the oil change guys to give the oil a visual inspection for me and I get the same response every time. Looks good, just a little dirty. So I do +13kmile oil changes with a seafoam flush every few years to clean it out. I think I went 24K miles in my '98 F-150 V8 at 1 time just to prove the point. It happens to be the same vehicle that i've been commuting with for the past week since I haven't had much time to get greasy with my baby and fix the timing in the evenings.

I can't blame the common problem of a "stretched timing chain" on extended oil changes. Especially at 131,000miles still pushing 145-150psi compression per cylinder. Sure, the sludge may cause the engine to jerk back causing the chain to slip and jump, but in the end, it's the streched chains fault, not the oil. The guy telling you to change your oil every 3-5k is the guy that owns the oil company.

All in all, at 5 years and 131k miles the TSX has been to the dealer 1 time for a warranty on warped rotors. Now the chain, and i'm doing it myself.

elliott44k

I had a problem in my 2001 volkswagen jetta last year with it struggling to start and then not reving past 3000, it turned out to be a messed up catalytic converter

CJams

After further review... auto tensioner in question! Will write more later.

mickey513

The TSX OEM NGK Irradium spark plug cost $10 a piece:

www.kragen.com

CJams

Removed autotensioner and tested it. Only traveled 1/4" after removal. Also, it only took 10lbs of forced to compress it. New autotensioner has full travel of over an inch and it takes 20lbs of forced to compress it. I replaced just the tensioner since the stealership i went to only had the tensioner and nothign else. Started fine, ran smooth for 2 days, then this morning the lights came back on. Cam sensor A out of alignment. Going to replace all 5 parts when they come in. Chain, 3 guides and using the autotensioner I bought on Saturday.

Itchytoe

Though I'm sure you won't take my advice, a visual inspection of motor oil is 99% useless. You don't need to change your oil because it looks bad. You change it because the forces in your car literally change it at a molecular level until it's not the same thing you poured in your engine. I feel bad for that big V8 you took to 25,000 miles on the same oil. Just because you physically can, doesn't mean you should.

CJams

^^^Don't feel bad for her. A visual and a good calibrated rub with your fingers tells you as much as you need to know.

You did however make me think about testing the viscosity accurately. time to research viscosity testers and test cups etc..

pimpin-tl

I suggest you read up on bobistheoilguy.com and read what happens to your engine pushing it that far on oil even synthetic. Your engine has so much sludge in it, I would hate to even look inside of that engine now or feel sorry for the next owner. You may try to save money by extending it that far, but it's going to cost you a lot more in the long run.

CJams

pimpin-tl: The next owner will be whoever I "will" it to. If I buy a car new I expect to own it till I die. I've had the truck for 12 years now and for the past 2 weeks she has been commuting 130miles round trip daily. I know everyone has their theories on how long oil lasts etc... I don't expect anyone in a forum like this to agree with me on these things because the majority of us here are O.C. about our cars. I have a 12 year old V-8 that is living proof that you don't need to change your oil every 3-5K. Plain and simple! Just dont tell bobtheoilguy to talk to my truck. She's doing just fine without his input.

As far as the TSX timing chain goes...

The chain stretched at least 1/2". There was also significant wear on the tip of the Autotensioner and the contact point where the tensioner meets the guide rail/tension arm.



My suggestions for anyone looking to do this job is at least change out the Chain, Autotensioner, and tension arm. The top guide rail and the front guide rail have minimal wear if any. I'm changing the front guide rail out as well while i'm in there. Leaving the top alone for now.

Thanks for everyones input.

curls

CJams - got any pics of the wear so we know what to look for? It'd be greatly appreciated!

princelybug

iTrader: (16)

+1.

princelybug

iTrader: (16)

Also, am I mistaken when I say that the plugs in these cars are supposed to last to 125k? That's what a service advisor once told me?

curls

The manual agrees with the service advisor (for once!). VERY long-life plugs (iridium = highest quality OE plugs available). That's also why they're $10 each on sale and not 4/$10.

CJams

Original plugs still in. Brand new set on the shelf. Gonna run the originals till she's back 100%. Those plugs are to expensive to foul out right off the bat.

I will try and get some better wear pics today of the tension arm and the tensioner.

CJams

I love the sound of i-vtec in the morning. It's the sound of victory!

CJams

Make that 133,700miles and still going on the original spark plugs.

And i'm still getting 31.5mpg with all the "sludge" that oilcanjoe.com "says" is in my engine due to extended oil changes.

It went up to 31.8mpg before I stopped this morning, but the sucky iphone cam just couldn't get a good pic of it while I was driving.

In this pic it shows i'm on track to renew my membership in the 500mile club.

Simba91102

What manual is that? My owner's manual (for the 05) specifies a plug change at 110K (the same for the normal and severe schedule).

I get a charge out of this thread. It reminds me a little of my elderly neighbor who dismisses the dangers of smoking cigarettes since she's smoked like forever and it hasn't killed her yet. There are of course exceptions to all rules of thumb, but I'm pretty sure that the normal maintenance schedule intervals are probably there for a reason. I would ask anyone who might seriously consider the extended intervals in discussion here..... would you buy a car from this man? (or anything for that matter; he obviously has some type of deficit)

CJams

Let me reiterate... I am not selling my car! It will be "willed" to the next owner when I pass! Or the engine will be replaced when it blows and she will turn to a track car with a turbo =). That's if it doesn't turn to a track car sooner, then I will blow the eninge racing. And when that happens, I will replace the engine myself. And most of the people reading this will have left their 1st gen TSX behind long before that point.

My actions are a testament to Honda Manufacturing. My first car was a 1981 Honda Civic. You can beat the crap out of a Honda and they will still run forever!

Is there anyone responding to this post that has extended the oil change cycles on a vehicle personally and ran accross problems directly related to the oil change interval? Or are you relying on internet research and advice from big oil companies that tell you how frequent to purchase their products? Also, were you the first owner responsible for driving and maintaining the vehicle from start to finish? And by finish I mean the point you encountered issues?

Miamicarfan

CJams:

How many miles per oil change would you put on your car if you were just running with conventional motor oil and not synthetic?


Sounds like you are a TSX owner for life. I hope to be on these forums a long time as well. Cheers