Ontilt

Well, Im not 100% sure, but you can get the new 2.0t Jetta or Jetta GLI with the DSG, so Im figureing you can get it with the Audi.

drkangel348

Actually an i4 has better reciprocated balance than a V6, and a i6 smoother than both.

Saintor

Absolutely not. This is all about quality feel. Check for example the V6 in the TL. Forget power or trust. You have to be in self-denial state to be convinced that it does not feel better than the K24. In the TSX' I would have preferred a 2.5L V6 180HP than the actual engine.

Three of them. And I will always prefer bigger displacement engines. Only my Mazda made sense as a turbo THEN because no one had a 6 in the category.

Last year, I had the occasion to test Legacy 2.5GT and Outback H6 on a closed circuit. Both had 250HP. But the H6 felt so much better... and it has the same fuel economy as the 2.5GT! Despite having more torque at lower RPM, the 2.5GT was ill-matched to an automatic transmission.

xizor

Audi's website says tiptronic only, I thought the 05 Audi was all new, but it kinda sucks. Nice gadgets on the interior though.

vitocorleone

Similarly, an expensive car does not always make it a better car - the "better" car depends on the wants and needs of the buyer. To me, the TSX is a better car than the TL, despite it's "tin can" engine (again, some people prefer a 4 to a 6). It was also better than the old 325. Better because it has and does everything I want and need more than any other car at the time.

And whomever said that luxury car drivers don't want turbos made a gross oversimplification, in that we're talking about sport-luxury cars and even BMW is coming out with a turbo last I read (not to mention Mercedes, Audi, etc.).

On a side note, there was a German car mag (that generally likes Audi/VW) that recently compared the Audi 3.2, Merc C320 and new BMW 330. The Audi won the comparison, and the Merc outperformed them all. BMW came in last.

GIBSON6594

Honda is known for this as well in some cases. Specifically the TSX, it is believed that, given the TSX various dyno runs, the TSX has something more like 210 horspower as opposed to 200 at the crank.

xizor

the 200HP is pretty deadon, the torque is higher ~172-175ft/lb

BlackAc036

To clear it up, I am NOT saying that an i4 is superior to a V6. All I am saying is for the money THE NEW A4 is an idiotic buy, you can buy a new TL for the same price as a 2.0T audi, I personally would take the TL. This is just my personal opinion and people can disagree, but I feel that audi is pricing their cars way too high and I'm against that...

Ontilt

Oh, your exactly right. But, lets say you had a TSX base and and a TSX Type S with 240-250hp, that cost around 4-5g's more. Would you buy it? Its all about what someone wants. I mean you can get a CLK 320 for around 10g's less than a CLK 430. It is all about if its worth it to you or not.

Hell, Im having trouble deciding if the TSX is going to have enough oomph. That is my real dilemma. However, Im not sure if I wanna spring for the TL.

BlackAc036

My answer is for 4 or 5K maybe, but in the case of the Audi A4 2.0T and 3.2, you are getting such a slight increase in power that it's just silly to buy the 3.2. If the increase in speed was a 1/2 second on the TSX Type S, NO I WOULDN'T GET ONE and I'm sure noone else would either... over 5K for a 1/2 a second, I can't see the point.

jaobrien6

For me, the point would be how the car feels to drive. For example, a WRX is much faster than my 5AT TSX, at least if you're doing clutch dump launches. I don't recall the exact numbers, but I think it's around 2 seconds faster 0-60. Which would I rather drive around town? The TSX, hands down. The WRX is a blast if you don't let the revs drop below 3k, but how many of us drive like that on our daily drive to work? I would pay more money (and did) to get the slower TSX. It's not all about 0-60 for some people.

Now, I haven't driven either of the '05 A4's yet, so I don't know if I'd value the 3.2 over the 2.0T, but it's possible. It all depends how it feels on the old butt-dyno and the overall driving experience.

John

Ontilt

Well, it is about a 50hp jump up. I understand its not that much difference in 0-60 times too. Just food for thought!

BlackAc036

I guess, but IMO I just don't think that it's worth the money for a little feel and slight speed increase... It's just my opinion

Ontilt

I know and that is why I am having such a difficult time deciding on a TL or a TSX. I know there is a 70hp difference, but there is also a big difference in MPG (i know some of you will say not that much, but the way I drive I would average more with the TSX). I dont mind the feel of a bigger car, but I prefer the sporty feel of the TSX.

ndx2

V6 has a smoother power delivery than teh 2.0T... some people hate that turbo rush (especially people buying AT's).

before, i think there were certain options you couldn't get with the 4 banger. i'm not sure if it's still the same.

ndx2

i've been getting a consistent 26~ mpg in my 6MT TL in mixed driving... (but i have hit 20mpg when i went for a cruise after installing CAI). 32+mpg when im doing 80% or more highway driving... i don't think you'd be saving THAT much $$ on gas w/ the TSX. if you do get the TL, get the CT RSB and ASPEC suspension/tein/lowering springs for sportier feel.

Ontilt

Its really funny that someone with 70 more hp than my 99 V-6 Accord can get way better gas mileage than me. Im sorry I just dont believe it to be true. I average around 22-25mpg in the Accord with the mix being 75% highway.

ndx2

why would i make that up?? i calculate my MPG at every fill up, and i was suprised myself, as my brother's 03 TL-S never seemed to go above 22-24 mpg in mixed driving.

of course if i floored my car everywhere, then i wouldn't get these numbers. this is from conservative/normal driving, and traffic congestion is not bad in my area.

BlackAc036

If people hate that turbo rush "to the point where they would pay $8,000" I really feel sorry for them. The TSX and TL is a very different situation though...

BlackAc036

Btw,

mobidutch

A lot of engine talk in this thread, and clearly that is important. But since I spend most of your time IN the car, interior design plays a big factor to me too. Don't you guys agree that the TSX interior runs circles around the A4? I think the A4 must have had the same console for like 6 years. It just looks boring. The middle console does not flow into the dash, and the driver instrument panel looks outdated. All these red displays are not very comforting to the eyes...and the instrumentation in the middle console just feels cluttered to me.

I like the A4...a lot. Exterior looks, the way it drives...nice! Still debating between it (2004 3.0L Quattro) and a TSX in fact. But that A4 interior is really bugging me!

To stay with the thread topic...yes..the price difference plays a role as well. Given how much I dislike one aspect of the A4, there is no way I would would buy a new A4 versus a nex TSX. I can justify paying a little more for 4WD and V6, but it would still be used...new price difference is just too much!

narci

I came from a I6 and now own a TSX (My first 4 cyc. car) I have to admit, I do miss the low end power of the I6. (it was a C36 AMG). I had 280 torque at 3500rpm straight to 6500 ending at 276hp. Performance wise the 1.8T/2.0T would be much cheaper then the 3.0/3.2. Luxury wise, the 6 cylinder would be quieter and smoother. My best frien owns a 2003 1.8T A4 quattro, he brought it in for warrantee (what else is new) and they gave him a 3.0 a4 Quattro to drive. He said the difference is pretty big non-performance wise. It was smoother and quieter. He said he would instantly go for the 6 cyclinder if price wasn't an issue.

dom

Not sure if its been mentioned in here yet and not sure anyone cares but the 05 A4 2.0T did 0-60 in 6.4 and the 1/4 mile in 14.9 in Augusts R&T.

The S40T is was up against took 6.8 and 15.1.

aascsm

co-sign to the maxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

narci

BTW, Lotus now uses a V6 or a V8, one or the other i think.

You can't compare a s2000 to a luxury car like an audi.

Oh, once you get up in speed.. you can't beat the bigger engine. I.e rolling at 100 and gong to pass a truck on the highway.

stphy32

OK I just did the BMW Ultimate Drive this past weekend and I got to Test drive the new 330i, the A4 quattro and Infiniti G35 sedan. I was so NOT impressed with G35 and A4. In fact, I would have to say the 330i totally blew me away. If it wasnt $40,000+ I would probably get that. Only bad thing is the interior. I think the TSX blew away the 330 and G35 interior. I love the Audi red interior lighting
But on performance, TSX=A4=G35 on Poor Body Roll
the 330i is in a class of its own.

Oh and I agree the TSX is way better for price. No way in hell would I buy an A4. Now maybe when the RS4 comes out.

stphy32

p.s.its BS the price increase in engine sizes vs. performance wise

ianS

Lotus use Celica GTS VVTLi engine. My TSX has more passing power on highway than my 2.8L I6 BMW. And also the 3L V6 from ES300 won't able to touch TSX at any speed too.

grendel

I agree with Mobidutch's comments about the A4 interior design. I cross-shopped the A4 and new BMW 3 before I bought my TSX 10 days ago. I'm a former A4 owner so I'm biased towards the Audi. However, the new A4 just isn't as nice as the '96 A4 2.8 I owned. The design and materials were a step below the TSX. The 2.0T engine performed well, but seemed a little lacking in refinement. Little turbo lag, but it never made you forget you were in a 4-cyl at idle. Considering the price, the A4 was not competitive, (sigh).

tcwatkins

What got me on my test drive of an A4 was a stupid thing, the center arm rest. I had to raise the center arm rest to engage the parking brake. The arm rest was also not working well with drinks in the cup holders. Small point but that little annoyance would grow in time, at least with me.

xizor

I had this same problem w/ the Audi when I test drove it. The interior is ok, but I was thinking WTF, who designed this? That would bother me forever.

rpcmx

Speaking as a current Audi owner (2003 A4 1.8T), I really have to disagree with you on some of those points. The interior, though it may not be flashy in any way, is remarkably well designed and executed (the armrest thing mentioned below is a problem, but I have an auto, so not so much for me). They've changed the lighting to white-on-black for some of it, and the red is not nearly as harsh at night as it was in the previous iteration.

The <insert that stupid French phrase that means "I don't know what"> really does exist on German cars. I test drove the TSX, and at the moment, it's topping my list for replacing my Audi when the warranty is up (bleh, the peril of owning a German car out of warranty is akin being against Bush in America these days...). But I have to say that I just didn't get the same feeling from driving the TSX as I do the A4. The steering felt a little less tight, and the car itself felt just a little more loose. The reassuring THUD when you close a door on the Audi just didn't resonate as much in the TSX; these are all personal feelings, but for some reason, it just didn't register with me in the TSX.

That being said, the TSX is a phenomenal deal. They screwed the pooch on the 2005 A4, I can't understand why anyone would up from a B6 to a B7 because the changes are SO minimal, and the new steering sucks... I think they just wanted to rush it out to compete with the new 3. The TSX offers you a much better value, and for that reason, I'm probably going to end up getting one, as soon as I can sell my damn A4.

But again, there is something there with high-end German cars. I've felt it in every Mercedes (Every class, most every model), BMW (new and old 3's and 5's, new 7 (yikes!)), and Audi (old and new A4, and A3) I've ever driven... and it's sorely lacking on most of the other cars I've driven.

...Waiting for flames...
-rpc

dom

I spend about 10 minutes closing and opening the door of an 05 A6 at the Detroit autoshow. The thud was intoxicating.

As for the new A4? The new 2L T is far, far ahead of the old 1.8. At least that what all reviews have said so far. Acceleration times are far quicker as well.

narci

Previous C36 owner here. I know what you mean that something is missing and I think i know what it is. It's the 'feel' of the car. German cars are more hunkered down looking and hunkered down feeling then the TSX. The TSX is light and nimble but I miss the heavy hunkered feeling of a german car.

Dan Martin

The TSX is the most "german feeling" of any japanese car I've driven but my Golf felt more solid at speed (although it took a lot longer to get there).

I don't know what it is but german cars feel so solid on the road. I guess it's the autobahn in their DNA.

There's nothing wrong with the TSX but it just feels a lot lighter.

ianS

But what I feel on German car is heavy, no life, slow response and boring!

mmynatt

Amen to that ---- I have a 2001 A6 w/Quattro and a 2005 TSX 6MT. The Audi cost $40K; the TSX $27K. I like both cars; I love driving the Audi TT loaner cars I get when I take the Audi in for a service. The Audi has the best quality interior of ALL cars for the money. The TSX has more features for the $ of all cars.

The biggest gripe I have with the Audi is the cost of service; I have not had the TSX long enough to have any real gripes yet.

As to which I will keep long term: the TSX. I love the 6MT and I love the features it has for the $. But the Audi drives better, feels better, and due to its Tiptronc transmission, is easier to drive. The biggest drawback for the Audi is gas mileage: you are talking serious bucks difference. I get about 15-18mpg on the A6, but I'll admit I am down to using it only on short trips in heavy traffic.

GIBSON6594

Which A6? I hope you have the 4.2 if your getting 18mpg, but the 4.2 costs a lot more than $40K.

Also, you can get the TSX with a tiptronic if you consider that as a positive as far as easiness to drive is considered...

quintno

Though it may not be particularly relevant, I came from a 96 A4 to a TSX this year and so far I'm happy. Love the gas mileage, the interior (in my Audi, the steering wheel interfered with the sightlines of the gas gauge, requiring you to bend over to see the level), and the reliability (nothing can describe what's it like when an Audi goes out of warranty--I was spending roughly $4 to $5,000 a year just to keep the car afloat). What I do miss, as many posters have noted, is the solidity--there truly is nothing like the doors and trunk, which on the TSX feel like a Chevy.

mmynatt

Unfortunately I have the 2.8 -- I get the crappy mileage because I drive it on short trips in heavy traffic. (3-4 miles in heavy rush hour traffic in Atlanta will do that). If I drive in to and from work in light traffic at 55-65mph with very little traffic I get 24-- 28 mpg.

I bought the TSX with manual to get away from automatic. It is a long story why I still have the Audi; has to do with a wife who can't decide what she wants to do. Very likely we will sell or trade the A6 (hopefully soon) and get her a new car. She is driving an old (94) Nissan Quest van and is unwilling to turn loose at this point.