TexasHonda

This saga is finally ended and I'm some $2500 poorer to return my 2.5TL to running condition again. I promised a full report and following are the sad details. Hopefully others may learn from my problem.

My son had a damaged harmonic balancer on a 97 Acura 2.5TL that failed by slipping (unknown initially). He was out of town at college and I was busy w/ my job so I couldn't do the work myself. He is good help and mechanically inclined but not up to major repairs yet and had a leg fracture preventing him from attempting the job. Car was failing to charge battery adequately although the charge light would not come on (more on this later). First shop thought a bad alternator, so a new alternator was installed. Same problem, so they thought a bad alternator and installed another w/ same result. Finally, someone noticed the alternator was not turning at full speed. It apparently would turn partially at idle and slip at speed. There was too much slippage w/ load to supply a full charge so battery would gradually decline till car would stop. Harmonic balancer rubber had failed allowing outer alternator pulley to slip relative to inner balancer attached to crankshaft. Shop changed the harmonic balancer. Car ran initially (< 1 hr) before stopping. The engine stopped like a heart attack according to my son. It was towed back (at my expense) to the shop. First shop "went out of business" according to management company and said mechanic had a stroke (it was hotter than Hades in Tx). First shop was into me for a $1000 and next shop they forwarded car to wanted more money to repair. They claimed the timing belt was damaged. This next shop was owned by same management company. I asked management company for insurance coverage to make the repair, but they said it wasn't their fault that timing belt was defective.

By this time, I decided to just stop the bleeding, pick up the car myself and inspect the damage. I rented a truck and dolly and hauled 230 miles back to my house to inspect. I found the harmonic balancer retaining bolt so loose I could turn w/ my fingers. W/ the loose bolt, the harmonic balancer had moved away from the timing belt sprocket far enough for the woodruff key that links the TB sprocket and crankshaft to fall out. I thought I would find the end of the crankshaft keyway damaged as the woodruff key came loose. However, I found the key has simply separated and all parts were OK. Timing belt was completely undamaged. However the crankshaft and valve train were mis-timed and I suspected there would be damage. I removed all spark plugs to avoid any compression load and managed to realign the camshaft and crankshaft by gradually turning each separately but very easily to TDC. I had to stop and reverse several times when I could feel any resistance but finally got to alignment. I reinstalled timing belt, harmonic balancer, and remaining parts. Entire job was about a 6 hr job on one of hottest days in Houston recently.

Car started but had a dead miss. I figured at least valve damage and maybe a piston was holed. My wife drove the car to a local garage that has a borescope to inspect the pistons for damage. They inspected and gave me a thumbs up for no damage to the pistons. I had to decide whether to R&R the head myself or get this local shop to do the job. I was swamped at my job and tackling this is in Houston heat was not a pleasant thought. Job looks to be more difficult than an Accord 4-cylinder head, but similar. The 2.5TL is an inline 5-cylinder that Honda/Acura has since discontinued. I elected to get the shop to perform the job at a cost of $900, including head repair/refurbishment.

During the inspection and repair work I may have discovered why the charge light was remaining off despite a declining battery. Walmart replaced the battery some time ago and had problems w/ battery tiedown. They left the ground strap from main harness to engine off. I'm surprised the car even started, and I suspect this may have led to the charge light problem.

I've considered getting a lawyer and trying to sue the garage and management company, however it would probably not result in any net cash in my pocket and could easily wind up costing more. What lessons to be learned? For me it reinforces why I diy everything I can. I think problems like this are the main reason many folks prefer to buy new cars rather than maintain older cars. My son had formerly used the shop that made these mistakes on some other work w/ good results and felt comfortable w/ their work. To be fair, the original problem w/ the damaged harmonic balancer was a subtle, masked problem, and was overlooked by several, including myself. Howver, installing the replacement harmonic balancer was a simple job that was totally flubbed and resulted in a much worse problem.

My local repair shop found 5 bent valves.

A further lesson is to carefully inspect the harmonic balancer when timing belt is replaced. The defect that occurred may have been there when I did timing belt last year and I did not inspect the harmonic balancer.

I've put more money into the car than I would have under other circumstances. Only way to get some of my investment back is to repair and keep driving the car.

Only good news is the repaired car runs as smooth as ever.

Regards

meazz1

That's some experience there, Texas.
I hope the car lasts long enough so that you can get your money and trouble's worth.
Good luck.

KrayzieDxC

thas crazy. at least its up and running.

TexasHonda

The saga continues. My wife took the car to get a state emission inspection. It passed but would not start afterwards. She got a jump start and came home. I checked the battery voltage and it was very low. No alternator charge, however as always the alternator light was not on.

I got the manual out and started checking the alternator light system. It checked OK. To check I had to remove the 4-wire green connector from rear of alternator (very difficult to access on the 2.5TL!) and ground one pin. Light came on indicating the alternator light is OK. On reinstallation I noticed that I could not get a firm "click" that usually occurs when this connector is pushed into the alternator. Hmmm! I removed some parts so I could push really firmly to install the connector. Yahoo! the alternator light came on. I charge the battery, started the engine and alternator was charging,....for a minute and then voltage sagged.

The problem is the electrical connector is apparently damaged and works loose shortly after the engine is started. I'll have to replace the connector to remedy the problem. I hope this connector is available as a part.

Anyone have experience w/ installing a replacement connector? Will it come w/ new pins that receive the wire ends or what?

Regards

pi1996

i have had to replace a connector for a headlight..

i bought a connector from delray acura. however the plastic part didn't come with the metal pigtails (i think that's what they are called)..
i didn't bother ordering them, and just reused the old ones..

sometime i'll have to get them..

96teeluxury

damn tex, sounds like fun.
gotta love my non-transversal straight 5 hehe

honda's gunna fk you for the connector if they sell it as a part too.

TexasHonda

I called Acura today and part is only available as part of a wire harness. I found at least one salvage yard who had the part and will pick up a connector and wire pigtail from them.

I tried several "spit and baling wire" fixes to temporarily patch the connector, but it still came loose after a few minutes of driving.

regards

racerock

Man, that stinks.

Who would have thought that we should index (mark with paint) harmonic balancers...

Maybe I will on my 3.2 next time I'm in there.

There are some aftermarket places that make connectors for alternators. You may go to a really good parts stores and look in their catalogs.

TexasHonda

I found the connector at a salvage yard and replaced it by splicing in the new connector. Problem appeared to be fixed for first 5 minutes and then same problem returned. After some additional diagnostics, I concluded the rebuilt alternator must have a defective regulator. I installed a "spare unit" purchased at the start of this fiasco for a diy repair by my son. Problem resolved.

Strange thing is the damaged harmonic balancer and bad alternator regulator had essentially the same symptoms; battery gradually discharging w/ no Alt light illuminated. It pays to get one of the inexpensive battery voltage monitors available at Walmart and keep it plugged in the cigarette lighter. That way you know your output is available, rather than only a blank panel as "assurance" that your battery is charging. It ain't necessarily so!

regards

Fear and Loathing

Hey guys,

Anyone ever tried not changing the water pump when doing the timing belt? Or ever heard of someone leaving the original water pump and getting high miles out of it?

I'm doing tb for first time at 200,000 kilometres in Toronto (97 3.2) area climate and I'm thinking of leaving the water pump (to save $) b/c even if it goes, at least the engine won't be damaged (like if the tbelt goes, the engine is probably f'd). Water pump works but maybe with a new belt, I fear it will break b/c new pressures. I know it'll be a big job to do water pump if it breaks but the penalty is only a few hundred in labour and not like the same penalty for example if the timing belt breaks and it costs a few thousand to rebuilt/replace engine.

Another risk I'm taking I suppose is not changing the tensioner. I'm told that if it's ok, then don't replace. Others have said, "definitely replace" and "it's come in the tbelt kit".

I guess i don't mind taking certain calculated risks sometimes.

Fear and Loathing

Go90go

I would do both together just in case. If anything, take off the water pump (have a new gasket handy) and check for corrosion, etc. You don't want that thing seizing up on you while on the highway. I plan on doing the TB and water pump on the new motor soon, even though it's got about 50K-70K miles on it. It's always better to play it safe, although I have almost no doubt in my mind that my pump is still good. The previous owner treated the car to OEM coolant exclusively.

~Cheers~

racerock

At a minimum check the bearings really good (and be honest with yourself ) on both the tensioner and the water pump.

Me? I changed both.

TexasHonda

Water pumps don't generally wear out, but begin to leak by the main seal. Why? Probably a combination of seal wear and bearing wear that allows the pump shaft to wobble, increasing seal wear. However, once leaking begins, the bearing sees coolant (where formerly it was isolated from coolant), and will begin to squeak and make noise. I would probably not touch the pump, but keep a good ear out for any squeaking from the water pump. That's a sign you'll need to go back in. Longest I've run a water pump is < 200K. They aren't "life of car" equipment.

good luck