intercooler re-locate
06-30-2010, 11:54 AM
#1
intercooler re-locate
Anyone make a intercooler re-locate kit to move the intercooler upfront instead of sitting on top of the engine?? if so do you have pics of it?
07-01-2010, 11:30 AM
#3
i am alittle shocked.. isnt there alot of heat soak sitting above the engine? i would think a re-locate front mount intercooler would be one of the top things to do for a few more HP
07-01-2010, 08:16 PM
#4
not an SUV ...a Big Hatch
Not toooo much heat soak.. I imagine in Phoenix in the summer at a long stop light you may feel it when the light turns green, but the scoop in the underside of the hood does a pretty decent job of getting air through there when you're moving.
Of course a FM would perform better, but just like with a DP, there would be $$custom fab$$ and a good intercooler core would cost a decent amount. Then you'd need to re-tune it to maximize gains.
Sure would be nice though. Plenty of room up front.
You could always get an intercooler water spray from a STi or one of the aftermarket kits for subaru's (or CO2 spray kit) if your set on improving that side of the equation.
Of course a FM would perform better, but just like with a DP, there would be $$custom fab$$ and a good intercooler core would cost a decent amount. Then you'd need to re-tune it to maximize gains.
Sure would be nice though. Plenty of room up front.
You could always get an intercooler water spray from a STi or one of the aftermarket kits for subaru's (or CO2 spray kit) if your set on improving that side of the equation.
Last edited by BigHatch; 07-01-2010 at 08:17 PM. Reason: text
07-02-2010, 09:59 AM
#5
Meh.. i just thought a front mount would look nice..plus free up a few ponies.. i guess i didnt even think about the adjustment on the a/f ratio to get even better.. i wonder with a church reflash if it would unlock alittle.. or bring it out.. after looking under the hood it would be hard to run the pipe for the intake manifold..
07-25-2010, 05:15 PM
#6
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I found a kit on Ebay, The guy who's gonna tune my RDX said it looks like a solid kit and worth the $$, he said he'll have to modify it a bit but very doable. check it out, let me know what you think, I haven't done it yet cuz I'm saving to get the front lip as well. I'll put it on while they have the original out to install the front mount intercooler, he approximates about 50 engine hp with the new intercooler alone.
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10-05-2010, 11:03 PM
#8
Copy cat shinobi
Meh.. i just thought a front mount would look nice..plus free up a few ponies.. i guess i didnt even think about the adjustment on the a/f ratio to get even better.. i wonder with a church reflash if it would unlock alittle.. or bring it out.. after looking under the hood it would be hard to run the pipe for the intake manifold..
I'd spring for some S2 stuff like a K-series TB/ IM/ + Hondata IM gasket, RSX intercooler, TiAL or HKS BOV, and the Piping is the cheap part(or IM gasket).
10-06-2010, 01:04 PM
#10
im curious if the heads on the k24 are same as the k23 if thats the case the hondata gasket would work..
10-06-2010, 01:40 PM
#11
You could have someone make a custom setup for a couple Grover Cleveland's. I think Mazda did it right and just made the IC bigger for better cooling (Speed3).
10-12-2010, 01:02 AM
#15
Copy cat shinobi
Looking into this you would want to convert the MAF to MAP using something like ecu-map 2 and that is rather expensive will require extensive knowledge in wiring, and tuning. If you want to get around the air meter that stopping everyone from getting HKS/ Tial/ what not for BOV's.
I see viable options being Synapse, Forge, and Tial makes one aswell. Recirculation and piping that mimicks the stock config. Running without the Recirc makes no since as it will have many benifits as opposed to direct atmospheric venting. The biggest the cost of the swap and purchase of parts, I know some people are made of money, but the cost alone won't justify the swap IMO. Anyway, the second is recirc will slightly affect the spooling of the turbo for the better. Third the ECU accounted for the Air and dumped a ____ load of fuel. I'd like to film the fire ball! Not with mine, 'cause It'd lead to replacing the o2 sensors and quickly clear out the Downpipe and ruin the catalysts.
Its almost figured out... :Thumbsup:
I read elsewhere some aZ member wanted to have a singing BOV and wanted the funny factor of it. I suggest that you hook up a turbo BOV emulator found on ebay or 12v BOV sound. Or you could do this to a friend it'd be the same:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvumA8PWY3Y
I see viable options being Synapse, Forge, and Tial makes one aswell. Recirculation and piping that mimicks the stock config. Running without the Recirc makes no since as it will have many benifits as opposed to direct atmospheric venting. The biggest the cost of the swap and purchase of parts, I know some people are made of money, but the cost alone won't justify the swap IMO. Anyway, the second is recirc will slightly affect the spooling of the turbo for the better. Third the ECU accounted for the Air and dumped a ____ load of fuel. I'd like to film the fire ball! Not with mine, 'cause It'd lead to replacing the o2 sensors and quickly clear out the Downpipe and ruin the catalysts.
Its almost figured out... :Thumbsup:
I read elsewhere some aZ member wanted to have a singing BOV and wanted the funny factor of it. I suggest that you hook up a turbo BOV emulator found on ebay or 12v BOV sound. Or you could do this to a friend it'd be the same:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvumA8PWY3Y
10-12-2010, 10:08 AM
#16
10-12-2010, 11:24 AM
#17
^ ugh.. i hate it when people take it to that extreme to put in a FMIC i get you may be faster but when do looks become a issue?
10-12-2010, 01:10 PM
#18
Copy cat shinobi
. He prob' was told it couldn't be done. Kinda reminds me of this:
Just not as sexy. I'm thinking of a Grandma with one of these, kinda. ugh!
Heres a link to a thermal a wrap that you can apply to non hi-temp metal that reflects engine heat. I've already got it on the way for my fluidyne radiator. It may be a good idea if you want a speed3 style IC and keep it top mount. The OEM IC is made of plastic, @ the pluenum (from mem).
http://www.mishimoto.com/heat-defens...tive-tape.html
Last edited by Kaze66218; 10-12-2010 at 01:24 PM.
10-12-2010, 01:17 PM
#19
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ROFL, some people on the.. lol... that is awesome . He prob' was told it couldn't be done.
Heres a link to a thermal a wrap that you can apply to non hi-temp metal that reflects engine heat. I've already got it on the way for my fluidyne radiator. It may be a good idea if you want a speed3 style IC and keep it top mount. The OEM IC is made of plastic, @ the pluenum (from mem).
http://www.mishimoto.com/heat-defens...tive-tape.html
. He prob' was told it couldn't be done.Heres a link to a thermal a wrap that you can apply to non hi-temp metal that reflects engine heat. I've already got it on the way for my fluidyne radiator. It may be a good idea if you want a speed3 style IC and keep it top mount. The OEM IC is made of plastic, @ the pluenum (from mem).
http://www.mishimoto.com/heat-defens...tive-tape.html
I shit my pants with this pic, laughing hard.
10-13-2010, 11:51 AM
#20
Copy cat shinobi
Okay we're at the drawing board here. I'll make a suggestion, as for
the intake and IC pipes will need to be re-routed. If Honda/ Acura built this engine I'm guessing that there is a motor mount in the back that is within inches of the IC pipe going up at the turbo. I'd be a absolutely positive if I was infront of mine. I have schematics out my ear, but I have to visually varify it, if someone doesn't beat me to it.
I see an option of running the turbo air out and down 90deg (which is the oppisite of what's going on already) and back to the front. If we were to go up, at the top there is an intake in the way.
For now we have been limited to intake options; K&N, CP-e, Weapon-r, etc. All are designed on a tube with a boss for the MAF. The reason the companies that did that is to comply to factory design placement, keep R&D costs down, and what not. The best way I see to pull in air is to draw it off in a protected area under the car. as close to the turbo as possible.
The routing I had in mind would have the IC piping under the car and meet the IC in the front (I was thinking of an integrated passive heatsink on the piping to this point). The IC pipe out would then pass through the opening in the engine bay where the original intake was located. At this point the Air meter could be installed where the piping is straight after the Air turns the corner at the Battery, then route to a pipe that has a boss for a Recirc/ BOV * After the BOV then to a TB.
I'm not in the business of fabricating metal products, however we will have to find universal products that can be put together (frugally, so you we are not left with 15 elbows, 4 couplers, 7 clamps, etc.)
Hopefully we can find a tasteful solution without resorting to ball-gag'd looking RDX. Nice find Marco!
10-13-2010, 01:51 PM
#21
What would happen (other than loosing low-hp boost) if one were to upgrade to a k04 turbo? Is engine management so constricted by the computer that no amount of tweaking or piggy backing the ECU would allow the car to run?
10-13-2010, 03:54 PM
#22
Copy cat shinobi
OEM is a decent Turbo, yet it's not exactly a powerhouse either.
My OEM's boost regulator is allowing around 18-20 psi right now (in stock config, not my "homebrew config" and my A:F was hovering in the rich 12 range to Redline on the dyno). Max boost was 20.5psi, and boost was all over the place above 5700 RPM. ABV may be failing, If the dyno guy lied about the boost monitor
I need to invest in a few things: Wide band, Boost/ vacuum meter, replacement R-BOV, newer/better ABP boost solenoid.
About the turbo:
Lets put it this way, if the flanges bolt up to the exhaust manifold you could use any turbocharger as long as its size is not a factor. The important thing is the Compressor pitch(angle) some cars may benifit more from the higher pitch, while others the lower pitch.
Simply put a Huge turbo trumps all right? Well it still has to be matched to the power of the engine. An extreme example would be a Dodge Viper SRT-10 upgraded with a twin turbos puts out x amount of power to begin with, but if that upgraded compressor brought too much power on early (lower RPMs) then you'd sacrifice drivablity for a smoke and sound show. It's possible and could become a factor, making it hard to keep the wheels from burning out. Although IMO I don't think that you'll find that problem with an RDX but I may be wrong (ATTS giving up).
If the turbo is to big (bulky) it may rub the firewall, and that would not be so good.
The ECU may not hold you back if you follow through, I'm seeing it's adapted to the so-called grey area, intake, exhaust, and Re-flash just fine. It's lean while out of boost but looked good. Leaning in low RPMs before boost sets in helps get the performance increase and is why we also have slightly higher MPG's.
A while back at Import Tuner they did an article about compressors and pitches, they broke it down "big bird" style.
Is there a shop suggesting it? The Dyno facility I go to is a tuner shop, but they refuse to touch the RDX, simply 'cause it's an SUV. I'm on my own out here, but it doesn't bother me one bit.
My OEM's boost regulator is allowing around 18-20 psi right now (in stock config, not my "homebrew config" and my A:F was hovering in the rich 12 range to Redline on the dyno). Max boost was 20.5psi, and boost was all over the place above 5700 RPM. ABV may be failing, If the dyno guy lied about the boost monitor
I need to invest in a few things: Wide band, Boost/ vacuum meter, replacement R-BOV, newer/better ABP boost solenoid.
About the turbo:
Lets put it this way, if the flanges bolt up to the exhaust manifold you could use any turbocharger as long as its size is not a factor. The important thing is the Compressor pitch(angle) some cars may benifit more from the higher pitch, while others the lower pitch.
Simply put a Huge turbo trumps all right? Well it still has to be matched to the power of the engine. An extreme example would be a Dodge Viper SRT-10 upgraded with a twin turbos puts out x amount of power to begin with, but if that upgraded compressor brought too much power on early (lower RPMs) then you'd sacrifice drivablity for a smoke and sound show. It's possible and could become a factor, making it hard to keep the wheels from burning out. Although IMO I don't think that you'll find that problem with an RDX but I may be wrong (ATTS giving up).
If the turbo is to big (bulky) it may rub the firewall, and that would not be so good.
The ECU may not hold you back if you follow through, I'm seeing it's adapted to the so-called grey area, intake, exhaust, and Re-flash just fine. It's lean while out of boost but looked good. Leaning in low RPMs before boost sets in helps get the performance increase and is why we also have slightly higher MPG's.
A while back at Import Tuner they did an article about compressors and pitches, they broke it down "big bird" style.
Is there a shop suggesting it? The Dyno facility I go to is a tuner shop, but they refuse to touch the RDX, simply 'cause it's an SUV. I'm on my own out here, but it doesn't bother me one bit.
10-14-2010, 01:46 PM
#24
Kaze is there really anything in kansas?? i mean honestly =) besides torn-a-ders
10-14-2010, 06:52 PM
#25
Copy cat shinobi
They hit here every 10 mins, even in the winter. Really it kinda bothers me, they mess up my posts all the time! Just a sec I gotta run to the ol' tornado shelter in the back yard got another one comin' and I don't feel like dragging my laptop with me.
Sno-nadoes are bad, I told my kids that Santa got caught in one and didn't make it to our house a few years ago. My boy prays every christmas now I guess you can call him somewhat religous now.
Seriously, I think Florida or Texas leads the nation with tornadoes.
Sno-nadoes are bad, I told my kids that Santa got caught in one and didn't make it to our house a few years ago. My boy prays every christmas now I guess you can call him somewhat religous now.
Seriously, I think Florida or Texas leads the nation with tornadoes.
10-14-2010, 10:51 PM
#27
Copy cat shinobi
10-17-2010, 11:18 PM
#28
RDX TMIC messurments
15" x 8.5" x 2.5"
127.5 sq in surface area 318.75 cu in
MS3 TMIC messurements
11" x 13" x 2"
143 sq in surface area 286 cu in
so the RDX IC is bigger then MS3
will post pics later.
15" x 8.5" x 2.5"
127.5 sq in surface area 318.75 cu in
MS3 TMIC messurements
11" x 13" x 2"
143 sq in surface area 286 cu in
so the RDX IC is bigger then MS3
will post pics later.
10-21-2010, 09:51 PM
#30
Copy cat shinobi
Ok, sorry I neglected this forum.
Just now I crawled under my RDX (I was hoping someone else would do this for me.) I noticed some things that suck. But it'll be ok, cause running it down isn't as good of an idea as I thought it would be. Oh well.
I was right the motor mount is in the back and in the way on the way down. Besides that the front Differental is also in the way screwing it up.
I saw that up is the only option for us. I need to wait about 3 months to save up money before starting. My wife isn't on board with this and isn't all that interested in spending on this right now even if it increases MPG.
I guess the best way to do this is pull all the plastic stock crud off.
A new set of tubes need to be installed, one on the intake side of the that has a 90 degree bend (S pipe) that is shorter than stock plastic tube which had the recirc fitting on it. At that point I'd put a short ram tube w/ Filter on it. Intake side done.
The Compressor-out side:
I'd replace the tube that feeds into the TMIC with a C-pipe pipe that is a good 3 inch longer than the S-pipe that feeds the air. I'd route a pipe over to the Battery/ snorkel area.
I mentioned a RSX FMIC style but I think that the based on the fact that it need to go in one side of the IC and return the same direction it came in at the snorkel hole the stock front intake used.
As the piping fom the IC comes back up form the snorkel hole it will have to go around the battery and to the Intake manifold. I'd like to see if a DBW throttle body from Skunk would work with the RDX TB interface/connector as well as a IM. Back to the idea, before the TB I'd put the MAF and air temp sensor that is on the Top mount IC and you'd be able to run any kind of BOV (no recirc necesssary)as well as have the option of a strut bar to be custom made. Also I'd bet that the gains from this would only net 12-17 hp /15-20 torq (given no pressure loss).
Most of this I'm cross-referencing from the scooby network (STi folks) as they hit a wall like we did with a MAF sensor that was placed forward of the recirc air dump, they moved it closer to the TB or IC and decent results. Don't expect 50hp+ off this you'd need a low pressure drop core as well. They , the good cores, run pretty expensive.
Just now I crawled under my RDX (I was hoping someone else would do this for me.) I noticed some things that suck. But it'll be ok, cause running it down isn't as good of an idea as I thought it would be. Oh well.
I was right the motor mount is in the back and in the way on the way down. Besides that the front Differental is also in the way screwing it up.
I saw that up is the only option for us. I need to wait about 3 months to save up money before starting. My wife isn't on board with this and isn't all that interested in spending on this right now even if it increases MPG.
I guess the best way to do this is pull all the plastic stock crud off.
A new set of tubes need to be installed, one on the intake side of the that has a 90 degree bend (S pipe) that is shorter than stock plastic tube which had the recirc fitting on it. At that point I'd put a short ram tube w/ Filter on it. Intake side done.
The Compressor-out side:
I'd replace the tube that feeds into the TMIC with a C-pipe pipe that is a good 3 inch longer than the S-pipe that feeds the air. I'd route a pipe over to the Battery/ snorkel area.
I mentioned a RSX FMIC style but I think that the based on the fact that it need to go in one side of the IC and return the same direction it came in at the snorkel hole the stock front intake used.
As the piping fom the IC comes back up form the snorkel hole it will have to go around the battery and to the Intake manifold. I'd like to see if a DBW throttle body from Skunk would work with the RDX TB interface/connector as well as a IM. Back to the idea, before the TB I'd put the MAF and air temp sensor that is on the Top mount IC and you'd be able to run any kind of BOV (no recirc necesssary)as well as have the option of a strut bar to be custom made. Also I'd bet that the gains from this would only net 12-17 hp /15-20 torq (given no pressure loss).
Most of this I'm cross-referencing from the scooby network (STi folks) as they hit a wall like we did with a MAF sensor that was placed forward of the recirc air dump, they moved it closer to the TB or IC and decent results. Don't expect 50hp+ off this you'd need a low pressure drop core as well. They , the good cores, run pretty expensive.
Last edited by Kaze66218; 10-21-2010 at 09:56 PM. Reason: picture did not post, included link*won't include links either***
10-21-2010, 11:34 PM
#31
Copy cat shinobi
"...its about liking what you got."- Sheryl Crow.
11-09-2010, 06:32 PM
#32
Copy cat shinobi
Hi all, I had a feeling that this would be a problem.
I read about this problem from a subaru(scooby) forum about a few weeks ago. I confirmed it with a few engine builders as well the first one being King Motorsports, as I agree with this, in short-to-the-point having a Top mount intercooler was to increase the the throttles responsiveness. If turbo on-set delay is not an issue continue.
With the intercooler and the piping being as short and straight as it is, the RDX (or Subaru) is relatively lag-free. I've seen a few scoobies, as I posted earlier, that the intent was to get a few more ponies slapped on a FMIC, but the bottom line was that was the begining of the 10 grand build (for the RDX i doubt that 10 grand would be necessary since most of us want that 300+pony range). If money is not an issue then continue.
The RDX is new "I suppose" and is kind of an underground following that I find similiar to the Preludes of the early 90's. A lot of tuners and engine builders have seen the engine in pictures and rarely see them in their shops. For the most part that is why many tuners unfamiliar with the RDX under body, engine, or the car in general. They will suggest to get a bigger top mount intercooler base on cost effectiveness.
If you have more money than "Brains" then replacing the TMIC with a FMIC should not be a set back.
I have looked at a slim-line radiator fan that I took off my prelude for the time being that could be zip-tied/ or fabbed to a stock or larger TMIC that would keep the air flowing on the IC while sitting still.
My formula for success, or guess, a brake actutated fan would be in order for this. Take that 12v brake light line and remote it to another 12v switch that draws power from the battery and wire the switch to the fan. when you press the brake it turns on the fan. Simple.
Mishimoto makes a heat reflective tape that could be used at the pluenums to fight heatsoak (this will not be good idea to use on the stock IC because it is mainly shrouded in plastic), and now the current objective is to find a "better" TMIC.
For monsterous power increase, this is not gonna be it: 15-20 at the very most based off my dyno. Using pump gas.
I read about this problem from a subaru(scooby) forum about a few weeks ago. I confirmed it with a few engine builders as well the first one being King Motorsports, as I agree with this, in short-to-the-point having a Top mount intercooler was to increase the the throttles responsiveness. If turbo on-set delay is not an issue continue.
With the intercooler and the piping being as short and straight as it is, the RDX (or Subaru) is relatively lag-free. I've seen a few scoobies, as I posted earlier, that the intent was to get a few more ponies slapped on a FMIC, but the bottom line was that was the begining of the 10 grand build (for the RDX i doubt that 10 grand would be necessary since most of us want that 300+pony range). If money is not an issue then continue.
The RDX is new "I suppose" and is kind of an underground following that I find similiar to the Preludes of the early 90's. A lot of tuners and engine builders have seen the engine in pictures and rarely see them in their shops. For the most part that is why many tuners unfamiliar with the RDX under body, engine, or the car in general. They will suggest to get a bigger top mount intercooler base on cost effectiveness.
If you have more money than "Brains" then replacing the TMIC with a FMIC should not be a set back.
I have looked at a slim-line radiator fan that I took off my prelude for the time being that could be zip-tied/ or fabbed to a stock or larger TMIC that would keep the air flowing on the IC while sitting still.
My formula for success, or guess, a brake actutated fan would be in order for this. Take that 12v brake light line and remote it to another 12v switch that draws power from the battery and wire the switch to the fan. when you press the brake it turns on the fan. Simple.
Mishimoto makes a heat reflective tape that could be used at the pluenums to fight heatsoak (this will not be good idea to use on the stock IC because it is mainly shrouded in plastic), and now the current objective is to find a "better" TMIC.
For monsterous power increase, this is not gonna be it: 15-20 at the very most based off my dyno. Using pump gas.
11-10-2010, 03:15 PM
#33
very interesting stuff.. i guess its all just food for thought
11-11-2010, 02:04 PM
#36
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11-11-2010, 02:27 PM
#37
Copy cat shinobi
Some thing like this:
I'm gonna start dabbling with FRP and CF for shitts and giggles I'll see if I can develop a hood that forces more air in the IC. I modded my hood of my Prelude to make it looke like a dodge viper -roundness.
Someone will prove me wrong about the FMIC they will be able to install this and it will kick ass but, 6 or half dozen the other, the hole-shot will be lost if you go to FMIC, but Top end will beneifit from the cooler air.
Just a little tid-bit before I disappear.
There will be a lot of math/geometry involved in making a good FMIC, Venturi effect and whatnot, and the end product will be slighltly superior in ways. But it may be better for street if the TMIC remained.
I'm gonna start dabbling with FRP and CF for shitts and giggles I'll see if I can develop a hood that forces more air in the IC. I modded my hood of my Prelude to make it looke like a dodge viper -roundness.
Someone will prove me wrong about the FMIC they will be able to install this and it will kick ass but, 6 or half dozen the other, the hole-shot will be lost if you go to FMIC, but Top end will beneifit from the cooler air.
Just a little tid-bit before I disappear.
There will be a lot of math/geometry involved in making a good FMIC, Venturi effect and whatnot, and the end product will be slighltly superior in ways. But it may be better for street if the TMIC remained.
11-11-2010, 03:16 PM
#38
StayAtHomeDad
11-13-2010, 01:24 AM
#39
I think Church had built a custom FMIC for their RDX. I assume it's the RDX that they flashed and tuned and built the exhaust for that was putting down 300+WHP. They took the OEM TMIC off, and ran a pipe across the top of the motor, to the front of the car, and to the FMIC they mounted. That's all I could gather from the pictures I saw.