hondata

The long version: http://www.hondata.com/reflash_rdx_intake_test.html

For those of you with short attention spans:

Description of Dyno runs:

- Red solid line stock ECU Stock intake
- Dotted yellow - stock ECU CP-E intake
- Dotted light blue reflashed ECU stock intake
- Dotted dark blue reflashed ECU CP-E intake

(Check out the customer review at the end of the page here: Customer review

superpowers

hmm, why the sudden drop on the dark blue line @ 2800rpm?
just a question, i don't know anything. but it doesn't look like a smooth ride!

batman

If I am reading this right that's 246hp/300+tq with i/e/reflash. So you would you reccommend this with east coast 93/94? Were there any changes to the reflash?

cwepruk

It's 246/300 with an intake and reflash - no exhaust. Solid numbers.

Soon enough I'll be getting a reflash.

john50

Hondata:

Do I interpret this correctly, that there is NO increase in torque or hp with just the intake?

JGard

actually, there is some increase w/ just the intake in various spots.

batman

The long version says the car had an custom exhaust on it.

hondata

cwepruk; you have a short attention span.

superpowers; automatics are difficult to load up on the dyno. The torque spike at low RPM is due to torque converter slippage. 275-280 is a fair torque number. The ride is smooth.

Batman; there were no changes to the reflash. You will be fine with the our current offerings.

John50; You look at area under the curve. With the stock ECU the intake made gains over 5500 RPM of about 4 HP. With the reflash the intake made gains above 4500 rpm.

mau108

when are you guys gonna send out this reflash to dealerships :P or specialty stores around the country.

I really don't want to unplug my ecu and be without a car for a few days :P

hondata

What if we were to sell a brand new RDX ECU with reflash? Price would be about $1100. How many people would be interested?

MMike1981

from those graphs, doesnt look like the cpe intake contributes much vs. stock setup. however, the exhaust could be a factor

again, i think this just proves that hondatas reflash is 100% solid & adding the intake helps the car out on takeoff (low rpms/boost lag) but doesnt look like much after that. its curve is amost the same as the bone stock dyno

cwepruk

It definitely has some potential. If there anyway a core program could be setup?

I don't have too many issues getting a lightly used ECU and sending mine in. The biggest issue to for is the dealer is on the other side of town (45 minutes away) and I don't have 2-3 days to leave my vehicle.

mau108

what about the deterrent system (i.e the chipped key)?

MMike1981

its actually not a bad idea....we could have the stock ecu as a back up and maybe when the car would go in for a some major service, it would give us the ability to put the stock unit in, it could receive any stock updates out, and then we could put the hondata back in as we please....i like the idea

john50

hondata:

Thanks for the clarification on the gains with the CAI.

Relative to your question on a new ECU reflashed, I'd prefer the core charge idea, but that might add cost to you. Would this be a DYI? I can't find a dealer in my area.

JGard

That's a better idea than having to ship off your ECU.

How's this, though. Are you familiar with Cobb Tuning? They're huge in the Subaru world.

they have a product called the Accessport which plugs into the ODB-II port under your steering column and reflashes your ECU for you. That way, you can reflash and unflash the ECU whenever you wish. They even have different maps available for 91 octane and 93 octane and every few months they update their maps as they test and find things that work better.

I don't know how difficult it would be to make a product like that, but since I'm sure you work with all Honda vehicles out there, this could probably be huge for you. It's EXTREMELY convenient for the customer, it's fairly cheap, and it's east to go back to stock whenever you want to sell the car or take it in for warranty issues.

batman

Count me in on that. I'm like 3 hours from the nearest dealer. So I would have to send my ecu to them first.

MMike1981

yep thats my situation too....i think, at least from a biz standpoint, you guys (hondata) should consider alternative options...closest dealer to me is 3+hrs. thats basically been the only reason why i havent been able to do this. dont feel like takin a few days off for somethin like this

BleuM&M

I don't think it's like that. You can get a PO (Purchase Order) from the dealer of your choice, then ship it and your ECU to Hondata who will do their magic and ship it back directly to you.

My plan is to contact a dealer, pay them and get the PO via email or fax, then let my RDX sit in the garage while the ECU makes the trip to the Left Coast & back. I can rent a beater for a few days during the wait.

Fishbulb

This, I would buy.

wwest

Any guesses as to why the low RPM peak torque point is delayed in both cases for the CPE CAI...??

Only about 200 RPM with CPE alone but ~450 RPM with CPE and ECU mod.

Intake resonance issue/problem..??

wwest

Resetting ECU each "time".....

So the dyno results will not, can NEVER, represent true to life driver performance experience...???

Absent giving the ECU time to "learn" the new operational parameters, say taking the vehicle out for a few drive cycles, how do you expect anyone to have faith in any of these tests....??

Given a few drive cycles to allow the ECU to "normalize" all the parameters of concern the whole performance enhancement procedure, CAI/ECU/Exhaust, might come to NULL, nothing.

Or you expect the driver will reset the ECU upon each engine restart...??

BleuM&M

I for one would have been interested in seeing this evaluation performed upon an otherwise rock-stock RDX, not one with an unidentified exhaust mod. Plus some info about conditions on the test date since Hondata documented in their original report how sensitive the RDX ECU is to fuel, intake temps, dyno loading and running conditions that would affect power.

Resetting the ECU before each run resets the knock learning, but if other parameters aren't conducive to putting down the juice...? I ask because given just the exhaust mod and ignoring the CP-E, there are interesting comparisons in the dyno chart for this test and the original Hondata reflash chart.

Since we have 93 octane at pumps over here in the Midwest and Southeast, I'm good with shipping my ECU to Hondata for some of their magic. I like the way my RDX runs with the CP-E. Adding that reflash is going to be some really sweet icing!

hondata

wwest; ignore power and torque readings under 3000 rpm As I have previously mentioned automatics are difficult to load up on this dyno. You are seeing a combination of torque converter slippage, and not giving enough throttle early enough in the case of the dark blue run. The RPM readings you see are not read from an RPM pickup, but calculated from wheel speed, which is not a fixed relationship when you have a torque converter.

So the dyno results will not, can NEVER, represent true to life driver performance experience...???

Correct, however we drive cars not dynos. Done correctly, they are the best tool for measuring torque changes in a controlled setting, which is of course how Honda does it.

Any testing procedure is most accurate when all the variables are minimized. All runs were started at with the same water and air intake temperature and after the car had been thoroughly warmed up. The ECU learns knock rapidly and is a variable that is difficult to control and varies from run to run. Should the ECU have picked up knock at one particular RPM on one run it would have pulled timing from every subsequent run until it re-advanced the ignition to the point where it reached equilibrium.

Resetting the ECU every time was the fairest way of comparing changes.


Absent giving the ECU time to "learn" the new operational parameters, say taking the vehicle out for a few drive cycles, how do you expect anyone to have faith in any of these tests....??

See above explanation. The cynics might also point out that if we made products that did not work we wouldn't be in business very long.

We have been working with K series engines for several years now. I personally have done several thousand dyno runs on these engines in pretty much every combination of intake, exhaust, CC capacity and induction type.

I have run training courses for Honda Engineers on how to tune Hondas (for racing purposes, not street)

We sponsor the German Honda Civic cup, where we tuned the engines not for power, but for economy.

As a rookie, last year I took an Acura RSX to Bonneville last year and took it to a best one way speed of 192 mph without forced induction. We set four records, taking one from General Motors. Details, including video here : http://www.hondata.com/cars/rsx_land...d_titlepg.html

I am afraid you will just have to have a little faith that we know what we are doing.


Given a few drive cycles to allow the ECU to "normalize" all the parameters of concern the whole performance enhancement procedure, CAI/ECU/Exhaust, might come to NULL, nothing.

I am afraid the laws of physics are against you on this one.

You have:

- More oxygen from the increased boost and air intake (you can measure that with a boost gauge)
- Less backpressure on the turbo from the exhaust (measure with pressure gauge as well)
- Leaner, more optimal mixture (you can measure that with an AF gauge)
- Advanced ignition and cam timing ( you can measure this with a scan tool)

And there is the dyno, an example of which is what you have at the beginning of this article. This is a test you can easily do yourself, and as I have mentioned before you can always use a stopwatch or a drag strip.


Or you expect the driver will reset the ECU upon each engine restart...??

Now that is being stupid. Of course we do not expect that.

MMike1981

i hope you didnt write all that in response to a WEST post...the guy is an IDIOT, in addition to not even owning an RDX, let alone an Acura.

dont waster your time here with west.....you guys do great work, we all appreciate it, and the results you get

again, im going to assume (since west is on my ignore list) that he rambled something along the lines of, a cold air intake, an exhaust or any other mod for that matter boils down to nothing, and the computer will somehow mastermind what you have connected to it and make it all not work...am i CLOSE? thats been this guys claim throughout everything...he more or less joined to post on this board his verbal retardedness about why any mod wont work (any mod that we as a consumer would have to pay someone else for, of course) until he buys and owns anything Acura.....he cant comment. dont let him verbally assault GOOD WORK.

wwest

Hondata,

Let's try and start here:

Lots of folks are advertising that a cheap and simple mod to the MAF/IAT sensor module can result in increased performance. The idea is use a 10 cent 1/4 watt resistor to skew the IAT sensor output so the engine control ECU will "think" the intake airflow is COLDER than it actually is. Colder air is denser air and so in theory the ECU would increase the fuel injection level to hold the correct mixture ratio.

But in actuality the intake airflow is NOT as dense as the IAT signal indicates to we would end up with a richer mixture than the factory designed for a given level of engine operation, loading.

But there is a fly in the ointment.

When the engine is idling or you are simply cruising along at a constant speed the upstream oxygen sensor is used EXCLUSIVELY to control the A/F mixture. And while it is doing that it is also continuously adjusting, CORRECTING, the MAF/IAT parameters/tolerances so that when the time comes to use those EXCLUSIVELY there will be no errors involved.

So...Modify the IAT sensor temperature signal as you will, within reason, the engine ECU will soon "learn" the new parameters that provide a correction for your modification.

If one really wanted this modification to work you would have to have the resistor out of the circuit during engine idle and during cruise mode with normal engine loading and only switch it in during acceleration.

In general that would probably mean having the resistor out of the circuit with the TPS indicating a closed throttle and if the OD lockup clutch is engaged.

Do you see my point...??

Here in WA if you drive up to the emissions station and you haven't driven enough drive cycles since an ECU "reset" they will simply send you away and tell you to come back after enough "drive cycles" have elapsed.

That's because after a reset the ECU must learn, all over again, beginning form the factory default parameters, all of the COPRRECT/ACTUAL sensor tolerances and parameters in order to operate the engine as emissions free as it was designed for.

So, yes, the CAI may provide a freer flowing intake, but just how soon do you think it might take the ECU to adjust for that and simply NULL out the effect..??

Other than the NOISE, that is.

Oh, let's not forget, it's the engine ECU that controls the throttle opening, your foot pressure only "advises" the ECU of which/what action you want it to take.

The funny thing....

Your results might have been even better, more improvement, with the ECU having had time to recalibrate, correct, the factory default parameters after each configuration change.

CaSHMeRe

MMike1981 said it all ... wwest has been on my ignore list for several weeks now ...

the diarrhea coming out of his mouth gets old real quick ...

this is the true wwest ...

cwepruk

What a tool. Are they supposed to do dyno shootouts over a three month period?

hondata

This one is fairly easy to address as we have datalogs of the runs. Runs with the air filter at the top end of the rev range is showing an increase of 171 grams per second of air as compared to no air filter. The dyno run was 10 seconds long, so a total of 1.71kg additional air was inhaled.

Now, in order to null out the effect of the 1.7kg additional air inhaled by the engine there is only one way to do this, and that is to add the equivalent amount of antimatter.

Using an equation I think you would be familiar with, E=MC^2 would show that the conversion of the total matter mass of 3420 grams or 3.42kg would give you energy release equivalent to about 75 billion tonnes of TNT or all the world's nuclear arsenals being simultaneously detonated.

I am pretty sure that the Honda computer was not programmed for matter-antimatter annihilation, and given the fact that Southern California is still here after my dyno run, we can fairly safely assume that the computer does not null out the effect of the additional air.

BleuM&M

Hondata has swerved into a new paradigm! I've heard of going medieval on someone, but going Einstein all over wwest?

Sweet!

wwest

But "we" avoid the issue, question..

Absent an actual dyno run with the engine ECU having had time, 500 miles of "mixed" city/hwy driving, in order to "adapt" to new sensor signal parameters, how do you know the results wouldn't be positive...??

Or should we assume that you know already, have done more legitimate dyno runs and the results were negative...??

PS: I don't disagree that resetting the ECU after a configuration change is appropreate, just that you then need to do enough drive cycles so that the ECU has time to fully adapt to the new configuration.

hondata

You completely fail to grasp the fundamentals of test procedure and in particular the purpose of this test, which is to adjust two variables, reflash and intake and determine the comparative differences, which is what this test has done.

Putting more miles on the car would allow the ECU to adjust ignition timing to suit octane, but it would have no effect on the other two engine parameters that affect performance which is air fuel and cam angle.

Let me, on behalf of all the readers here point you in a direction that would benefit everyone.

http://www.efi101.com/

wwest

May I say I don't understand...??

You appear to have a good reputation, even a STELLAR reputation for having the ability to modify the actual engine control ECU firmware. I would think that in order to do that you would need to have an intimate knowledge of the factory version of the ECU firmware.

Even a cursory reading of the sensor diagnostic, sensor fault detection, section of any modern vehicle factory technical or training manual would, to me, indicate that your testing procedure is completely INVALID insofar as actual roadway use is concerned.

Do you have a reason for swimming upstream...??

Do you actually modify the ECU firmware at all...??

Or are you simply selling these folks, folks apparently more than willing to stick their head in the sand, a "load of poles" that no one has the ability to discern...??

How is anyone in your user community to know, detect, that you have actually modified the vehicle's ECU firmware...??

It's become pretty obvious to me that many potential purchasers of RDX performance enhancement devices are willing to look the other way insofar as valid denigration of these schemes are concerned, is that what you are relying upon...??

batman

You've got to be kidding me!!! Where do some of these people come from?

Hondata=Race proven technology! You just said so in your last post.

MMike1981

In the last CPE thread, i made the announcement that WEST should be banned from all other mod threads and/or anything having to do with CPE ..

THIS IS PROVING MY POINT, i cant read what hes posting but its already destroying the FACTS, WORK, STATS of HONDATA etc . GET RID OF THIS GUY.

why is he on this board????????????????? isnt there some tech nerd engineer board u can direct him to, honestly.

wwest

For how many years would you guess that STP used "race proven" to sell what was eventually proven to be a virtually useless oil additive..??

And then there is K&N, still selling "race proven" "snake oil", even today.

Not disparaging Hondata's race proven aspect at all but modifying an engine's ECU control firmware to enhance performance for street use while still passing the emissions testing is a completely different matter than "race proven" ECU firmware modifications.

BleuM&M

It's amazing to me how Mr. wwest is able to draw folks into spiraling discourse with a slew of pop science theories, rhetoric that defies the bounds of credibility, tangential thinking, unsupported assertions and alarmingly skewed logic. To state just a little.

Notice he cites no supporting documentation of his negative remarks - negatives can't be proven, an effective strategy if one allows its presence. Sad to say, the picture he paints of himself in this forum and the mind set he displays is a sad but familiar one.

I'm afraid what little respect I have left for this gent continues to diminish. Assuming he is a rational person, the only conclusion I can come to for all this nonsense is that he is a very lonely and unoccupied individual. Don't feed the trolls.

cwepruk

Those are usually reserved for people who know what they are talking about. He is attempting to sound knowledgeable while overlooking obvious empiral information.

wwest

...

wwest

The graphs you came up with are perfectly adequate, and TRUE, for the purposes you state, THE PURPOSES YOU STATE.

The problem is the tests you did potentially bear no reality whatsoever to real world use of the vehicle.

Oh