Whiter Light is Not More Light
11-12-2007, 12:54 PM
#1
haole kama'a-ina
Thread Starter
Whiter Light is Not More Light
The Xenon HID low beams on the RDX are a much higher color temperature (whiter) than the halogen high beams and fogs, which produce a lower color temp (amber).
Consequently, A-Ziners want to colormatch their HIDs with high color temp halogens, for aesthetic appeal.
Halogen bulbs are essentially incandescents on steroids; the filament is tungsten surrounded by inert gas, but the principle is the same. So incandescents and halogens are both Full Color Spectrum lights -- that is all colors in the spectrum are present in the radiated light -- and you get a color temp of about 3200 kelvin (K). We need to be pushing 4000K+ to appear close to the 5000K of HID.
The only way to increase the color temp is to filter out the undesirable red/green leaving the blue/violet, which appears whiter and brighter. To do this the bulb is coated with a capsule filter of blue amethyst:
The capsule filter attenuates (absorbs) the red/green wavelenths, (pushing the color temp to 4000K in the Hoen Xenonmatch). But the capsule filter also attenuates the overall amplitude and intensity of the radiated light.
This unavoidable attenuation reduces the luminance in the beam angle, that is, there is less intensity in the focused light thrown down the road.
Hoen makes this very clear in comparing the Xenrange to the Titanium:
Both bulbs run at 70W, but the more heavily filtered Titanium, which looks brighter(4300K), throws less light than the 3700K Xenrange.
The only way to make up for the reduced intensity is to increase the power, and Hoen does this with the Xenonmatch Plus. These lights run 80W to overcome the filtering, but in RDX spec (9005) they are only available in 60W, and they don't recommend going higher. Same problem; whiter light = less light.
Check this chart from Xtralights.com for the RDX 9005, and you can see that as the filtering increases the color temp, the light intensity goes down:
neo 1738 made a very astute observation regarding this, which seems to have gone somewhat unnoticed:
I don't really mean to urinate in anyone's cornflakes, but I suppose you have to decide what function you want your highbeams to perform:
Be aesthetically pleasing -- or throw light down the road.
Consequently, A-Ziners want to colormatch their HIDs with high color temp halogens, for aesthetic appeal.
Halogen bulbs are essentially incandescents on steroids; the filament is tungsten surrounded by inert gas, but the principle is the same. So incandescents and halogens are both Full Color Spectrum lights -- that is all colors in the spectrum are present in the radiated light -- and you get a color temp of about 3200 kelvin (K). We need to be pushing 4000K+ to appear close to the 5000K of HID.
The only way to increase the color temp is to filter out the undesirable red/green leaving the blue/violet, which appears whiter and brighter. To do this the bulb is coated with a capsule filter of blue amethyst:
The capsule filter attenuates (absorbs) the red/green wavelenths, (pushing the color temp to 4000K in the Hoen Xenonmatch). But the capsule filter also attenuates the overall amplitude and intensity of the radiated light.
This unavoidable attenuation reduces the luminance in the beam angle, that is, there is less intensity in the focused light thrown down the road.
Hoen makes this very clear in comparing the Xenrange to the Titanium:
Höen xenrange
The Höen xenrange is identical to the Titanium line but features less capsule filters thus producing a 3,700k light output but provides more lumens (light output on the road).
The Höen xenrange is identical to the Titanium line but features less capsule filters thus producing a 3,700k light output but provides more lumens (light output on the road).
The only way to make up for the reduced intensity is to increase the power, and Hoen does this with the Xenonmatch Plus. These lights run 80W to overcome the filtering, but in RDX spec (9005) they are only available in 60W, and they don't recommend going higher. Same problem; whiter light = less light.
Check this chart from Xtralights.com for the RDX 9005, and you can see that as the filtering increases the color temp, the light intensity goes down:
Bulb Technical Specifications: Replacement Type: 9005 (as known as HB3)
Color & Light Output:
HID Bulb_______Color Temperature (Kelvin)______Light Output (lumen)
Golden Yellow________3000K__________________3600 (Brightest)
Crystal White________4300K___________________3500
Diamond Blue________6000K___________________3400
Deep Blue___________8000K___________________3300
Violet Purple_________10000K__________________3200
Color & Light Output:
HID Bulb_______Color Temperature (Kelvin)______Light Output (lumen)
Golden Yellow________3000K__________________3600 (Brightest)
Crystal White________4300K___________________3500
Diamond Blue________6000K___________________3400
Deep Blue___________8000K___________________3300
Violet Purple_________10000K__________________3200
Originally Posted by neo 1738
a few notes, now that i have tested these out for a bit, you will definitely lose that highbeam visibility, for me it doesnt do much more than faintly light up past the low beams, and the fogs provide minimal increase in light, what they still do is create more of that light near the corners of the car where u need it to see the lines. with all that said; however, they def look awesome! i'll give em a try, if first snow the fogs are causing me to not be able to see i will probably put in original until spring. food for thought
Be aesthetically pleasing -- or throw light down the road.
11-12-2007, 03:15 PM
#2
'06 RL Tech
I very rarely use my high beams, hinse I chose aesthetics. If someone makes a bulb that works as well, or better, and still is aesthetically pleasing to me, I'll try it also.
That is some great info for those that are considering changing their bulbs.
Thanks.
That is some great info for those that are considering changing their bulbs.
Thanks.
11-12-2007, 10:12 PM
#3
JetJock, I couldn't be more with you. Anyone who's interested in the gory details can Google Daniel Stern Lighting. If you want attention, get a neon arrow that points at you. If you want to cast an esthetically pleasing glow, there are easy solutions for folks who are lucky enough not to drive in other than urban and night-lit environs.
If you aren't that lucky and want to see during adverse conditions when it could save your ride or your life, both, or maybe even someone in your path, do some checking.
I installed a set of Toshiba 9011 HIR (Halogen Infrared Radiation) bulbs in place of the DRL/high beams that I babbled about elsewhere in this forum. Oh, they are OEM wattage, OEM bulb life. But... up to 75% more light. Gotta love modern science. Every time I pull the trigger on those puppies to illuminate the road ahead, I get so much more than I paid for. Check them out on eBay. The merchant is Max Lumens.
What they ARE NOT is the blue/white of HID wannabes. My eyes are not scientific instruments, but to me, the 9011s THROW light down the road. Not to steal 737 thunder, ahem.
If you aren't that lucky and want to see during adverse conditions when it could save your ride or your life, both, or maybe even someone in your path, do some checking.
I installed a set of Toshiba 9011 HIR (Halogen Infrared Radiation) bulbs in place of the DRL/high beams that I babbled about elsewhere in this forum. Oh, they are OEM wattage, OEM bulb life. But... up to 75% more light. Gotta love modern science. Every time I pull the trigger on those puppies to illuminate the road ahead, I get so much more than I paid for. Check them out on eBay. The merchant is Max Lumens.
What they ARE NOT is the blue/white of HID wannabes. My eyes are not scientific instruments, but to me, the 9011s THROW light down the road. Not to steal 737 thunder, ahem.
11-12-2007, 10:25 PM
#4
Senior Moderator
What about the Osram Nightbreaker ? they don't have a 9005 variant yet but I believe they have one for the the rdx fogs (h11's)
90% more light, 10% whiter beam is a pretty large claim coming from Osram (Sylvania).
90% more light, 10% whiter beam is a pretty large claim coming from Osram (Sylvania).
11-12-2007, 10:30 PM
#5
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by BleuM&M
JetJock, I couldn't be more with you. Anyone who's interested in the gory details can Google Daniel Stern Lighting. If you want attention, get a neon arrow that points at you. If you want to cast an esthetically pleasing glow, there are easy solutions for folks who are lucky enough not to drive in other than urban and night-lit environs.
If you aren't that lucky and want to see during adverse conditions when it could save your ride or your life, both, or maybe even someone in your path, do some checking.
I installed a set of Toshiba 9011 HIR (Halogen Infrared Radiation) bulbs in place of the DRL/high beams that I babbled about elsewhere in this forum. Oh, they are OEM wattage, OEM bulb life. But... up to 75% more light. Gotta love modern science. Every time I pull the trigger on those puppies to illuminate the road ahead, I get so much more than I paid for. Check them out on eBay. The merchant is Max Lumens.
What they ARE NOT is the blue/white of HID wannabes. My eyes are not scientific instruments, but to me, the 9011s THROW light down the road. Not to steal 737 thunder, ahem.
If you aren't that lucky and want to see during adverse conditions when it could save your ride or your life, both, or maybe even someone in your path, do some checking.
I installed a set of Toshiba 9011 HIR (Halogen Infrared Radiation) bulbs in place of the DRL/high beams that I babbled about elsewhere in this forum. Oh, they are OEM wattage, OEM bulb life. But... up to 75% more light. Gotta love modern science. Every time I pull the trigger on those puppies to illuminate the road ahead, I get so much more than I paid for. Check them out on eBay. The merchant is Max Lumens.
What they ARE NOT is the blue/white of HID wannabes. My eyes are not scientific instruments, but to me, the 9011s THROW light down the road. Not to steal 737 thunder, ahem.
11-12-2007, 10:57 PM
#6
Yes Mau1, I had to trim some tabs to make the bulbs fit, but Max Lumens marked each tab with white to show the trim spots. The instruction links he posts on his eBay site make it almost a no-brainer, at least to this left-handed dyslexic. Piece of cake.
BTW, it's about time you folks Up There got the advantage - when I lived in the Detroit area (Stone Age), I used to cross the bridge to get a 15-20% exchange discount on cars I brought back, not to mention some fine restaurants I visited. Come on down!
BTW, it's about time you folks Up There got the advantage - when I lived in the Detroit area (Stone Age), I used to cross the bridge to get a 15-20% exchange discount on cars I brought back, not to mention some fine restaurants I visited. Come on down!
11-12-2007, 11:11 PM
#7
Senior Moderator
hey can you pm me the link to this guy, the ebay merchant I have is not Max lumens, its hir_headlights.
And I don't see any guide on cutting the tab.
edit: just ordered a set, came out to 61 usd bucks for 2 bulbs shipped which is not bad.
And I don't see any guide on cutting the tab.
edit: just ordered a set, came out to 61 usd bucks for 2 bulbs shipped which is not bad.
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11-12-2007, 11:25 PM
#8
Originally Posted by mau108
hey can you pm me the link to this guy, the ebay merchant I have is not Max lumens, its hir_headlights.
And I don't see any guide on cutting the tab.
edit: just ordered a set, came out to 61 usd bucks for 2 bulbs shipped which is not bad.
And I don't see any guide on cutting the tab.
edit: just ordered a set, came out to 61 usd bucks for 2 bulbs shipped which is not bad.
That's the guy, Mau1. He'll mark the tabs for you on the bulbs he sends. You'll LOVE them bulbs!
11-13-2007, 05:15 AM
#9
Originally Posted by 737 Jock
whiter light = less light.
Gotta love this thread 737J !
11-13-2007, 11:09 AM
#10
'06 RL Tech
Originally Posted by BleuM&M
JetJock, I couldn't be more with you. Anyone who's interested in the gory details can Google Daniel Stern Lighting. If you want attention, get a neon arrow that points at you. If you want to cast an esthetically pleasing glow, there are easy solutions for folks who are lucky enough not to drive in other than urban and night-lit environs.
If you aren't that lucky and want to see during adverse conditions when it could save your ride or your life, both, or maybe even someone in your path, do some checking.
I installed a set of Toshiba 9011 HIR (Halogen Infrared Radiation) bulbs in place of the DRL/high beams that I babbled about elsewhere in this forum. Oh, they are OEM wattage, OEM bulb life. But... up to 75% more light. Gotta love modern science. Every time I pull the trigger on those puppies to illuminate the road ahead, I get so much more than I paid for. Check them out on eBay. The merchant is Max Lumens.
What they ARE NOT is the blue/white of HID wannabes. My eyes are not scientific instruments, but to me, the 9011s THROW light down the road. Not to steal 737 thunder, ahem.
If you aren't that lucky and want to see during adverse conditions when it could save your ride or your life, both, or maybe even someone in your path, do some checking.
I installed a set of Toshiba 9011 HIR (Halogen Infrared Radiation) bulbs in place of the DRL/high beams that I babbled about elsewhere in this forum. Oh, they are OEM wattage, OEM bulb life. But... up to 75% more light. Gotta love modern science. Every time I pull the trigger on those puppies to illuminate the road ahead, I get so much more than I paid for. Check them out on eBay. The merchant is Max Lumens.
What they ARE NOT is the blue/white of HID wannabes. My eyes are not scientific instruments, but to me, the 9011s THROW light down the road. Not to steal 737 thunder, ahem.
Did alot of reading on the bulbs from all the sites. I'm going to "go into the light" and order some of the HIR's for my RDX and my wife's car, also. I like the performance, so it will be there in case it's ever needed.
Thanks to all.
11-13-2007, 03:46 PM
#11
haole kama'a-ina
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by BleuM&M
My eyes are not scientific instruments, but to me, the 9011s THROW light down the road. Not to steal 737 thunder, ahem.
Appreciate the heads-up on the Toshiba 9011s. Good call. We drive unlit rural two lanes and need to throw some luminance down the road. They're on order.
hirheadlights.com
Want to get great illumination without extra heat, wiring upgrades, relays, transformers, and blue tint? Want to SEE better at night instead of HEARING a bunch of dubious chatter about xenon-filled, over-wattage, blue-tinted bling-bling bulbs that are supposedly "just like HIDs"? Want a bulb where you could create a simple swap into a 9005 or 9006 socket and maintain the correct filament placement for a perfect light pattern, instead of causing glare and scattered, diffused light? Want to save hundreds of dollars over the cost of retrofitting an illegal, bootleg HID system? Then you want these Halogen Infrared Reflecting bulbs. tting bulbs.
These Toshiba bulbs are a unique product, the only bulbs available that use the research technology that General Electric patented in 2000 (patent number 6,087,775). It was GE's goal to create a bulb that produced 75% of the light output of HID headlights at 25% of the cost. GE sells HIR bulbs for residential lighting and specialized projectors, but decided to stay out of the automotive market and licensed this technology to a division of Toshiba. In fact, Toshiba and GE are among the few companies in the world with the expertise to engineer and build this product. These bulbs attain light levels 75% to 110% brighter than stock as a result of an engineering process that deposits multiple, yet almost invisible, layers of semi-reflective coating on the surface of a specially shaped quartz bulb. This coating ( a titania/silica, zinc oxide/silica, zirconia/silica, silicon nitride/silica, and titania/magnesium fluoride tantalam/silica multi-layer dielectric, according to the patent) reflects a portion of the infrared energy emitted by the filament back onto the filament, causing it to glow brighter and emit more light from the uncoated forward portion of the bulb. Although the filament gets hotter, the glass does not. IT GENERATES NO MORE HEAT THAN A REGULAR HALOGEN BULB, AND IT DRAWS THE SAME WATTAGE AND AMPERAGE AS THE STOCK 9006 BULB IT REPLACES
These bulbs produce white light, rated at 3600 Kelvin color temp, slightly whiter than the 3250K stock halogen bulbs. They do not attempt to imitate the bluish appearance of HID (High Intensity Discharge, or Xenon) bulbs. The blue halo of original equipment HIDs comes from the high voltage arc of energy between electrodes, which emits a minor amount of long-wave UV light. Putting blue coating on a regular bulb actually reduces light output.
The HIR 9011 can replace a stock 9005/HB3 bulb.
Want to get great illumination without extra heat, wiring upgrades, relays, transformers, and blue tint? Want to SEE better at night instead of HEARING a bunch of dubious chatter about xenon-filled, over-wattage, blue-tinted bling-bling bulbs that are supposedly "just like HIDs"? Want a bulb where you could create a simple swap into a 9005 or 9006 socket and maintain the correct filament placement for a perfect light pattern, instead of causing glare and scattered, diffused light? Want to save hundreds of dollars over the cost of retrofitting an illegal, bootleg HID system? Then you want these Halogen Infrared Reflecting bulbs. tting bulbs.
These Toshiba bulbs are a unique product, the only bulbs available that use the research technology that General Electric patented in 2000 (patent number 6,087,775). It was GE's goal to create a bulb that produced 75% of the light output of HID headlights at 25% of the cost. GE sells HIR bulbs for residential lighting and specialized projectors, but decided to stay out of the automotive market and licensed this technology to a division of Toshiba. In fact, Toshiba and GE are among the few companies in the world with the expertise to engineer and build this product. These bulbs attain light levels 75% to 110% brighter than stock as a result of an engineering process that deposits multiple, yet almost invisible, layers of semi-reflective coating on the surface of a specially shaped quartz bulb. This coating ( a titania/silica, zinc oxide/silica, zirconia/silica, silicon nitride/silica, and titania/magnesium fluoride tantalam/silica multi-layer dielectric, according to the patent) reflects a portion of the infrared energy emitted by the filament back onto the filament, causing it to glow brighter and emit more light from the uncoated forward portion of the bulb. Although the filament gets hotter, the glass does not. IT GENERATES NO MORE HEAT THAN A REGULAR HALOGEN BULB, AND IT DRAWS THE SAME WATTAGE AND AMPERAGE AS THE STOCK 9006 BULB IT REPLACES
These bulbs produce white light, rated at 3600 Kelvin color temp, slightly whiter than the 3250K stock halogen bulbs. They do not attempt to imitate the bluish appearance of HID (High Intensity Discharge, or Xenon) bulbs. The blue halo of original equipment HIDs comes from the high voltage arc of energy between electrodes, which emits a minor amount of long-wave UV light. Putting blue coating on a regular bulb actually reduces light output.
The HIR 9011 can replace a stock 9005/HB3 bulb.
11-23-2007, 07:04 PM
#15
Senior Moderator
got the bulbs and cut the white pieces off and for some odd reason I couldn't fit the bulb in. Like it won't go in all the way and twist so I can screw it back in.
Anyone experience problems? These are the toshibas
Anyone experience problems? These are the toshibas
11-23-2007, 08:09 PM
#16
'06 RL Tech
I thought I was the only one having the problem. No mentioned it so I thought I was doing it wrong. I kept trying, then had to use a screw-driver to help keep pressure on the side that seemed to be binding. Finally it went in and turned. It's a VERY tight fit. I figured I must be missing something so I went to Max's page on the install.
http://shnu.us/HIR%20Trimming%20Stock.htm
There was no mention of being so hard to fit, even with the trimming.
Did anyone else get an easier fit?
http://shnu.us/HIR%20Trimming%20Stock.htm
There was no mention of being so hard to fit, even with the trimming.
Did anyone else get an easier fit?
11-24-2007, 10:09 AM
#18
Originally Posted by JMJ3rd
I thought I was the only one having the problem. No mentioned it so I thought I was doing it wrong. I kept trying, then had to use a screw-driver to help keep pressure on the side that seemed to be binding. Finally it went in and turned. It's a VERY tight fit. I figured I must be missing something so I went to Max's page on the install.
http://shnu.us/HIR%20Trimming%20Stock.htm
There was no mention of being so hard to fit, even with the trimming.
Did anyone else get an easier fit?
http://shnu.us/HIR%20Trimming%20Stock.htm
There was no mention of being so hard to fit, even with the trimming.
Did anyone else get an easier fit?
"One thing caught my eye; you mention that the bulbs are a snug fit in this vehicle. I have a (possible) suggestion for an easy fix to that, if it's what I think. On some cars, the hole in the housing is not a consistent diameter all the way through. It can have a ridge or taper to it. I don't know if this is deliberate or merely lax engineering. The cure is to taper the nose of the barrel of the bulb a bit. I do it with a circular wheel in the Dremel, leaving the bulb in the packing foam for safety (see pic). A guy with a Dodge Magnum was the first to figure it out:
http://foohbar.com/light_bulb_saga. (you need to put a dot-c-f-m without the dashes after 'saga' for the link to work)
I hope to update the web site shortly with better info about this and a FAQ section for all the trimming info."
Hope this helps!
11-24-2007, 05:39 PM
#19
'06 RL Tech
Thanks for the help. I guess I'll try it if/when I have to replace one. Now that they are in, I'm leavin' them alone.
Here is the link: http://foohbar.com/light_bulb_saga.
Here is the link: http://foohbar.com/light_bulb_saga.
11-25-2007, 04:27 PM
#20
Senior Moderator
woot got it installed today (went in alot easier when I swapped the bulbs) One was still hesitant but i forced it in.
DRL wise I don't notice much of a difference, but high beams, wow its f'ing bright.
DRL wise I don't notice much of a difference, but high beams, wow its f'ing bright.
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