Rear diff. fluid change.
11-06-2007 | 07:39 PM
#1
Thread Starter
'06 RL Tech
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 718
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From: Beaumont Texas/The Right Side of Texas
Rear diff. fluid change.
I just had my rear diff. fluid changed out as part of my 15K maint. I know it is not due for another 15K, but my dealer recommends it sooner. I could have declined with no problem, but chose to do it.
All that to say that the rear diff. uses ATF instead of gear oil because of the SHAWD. I was able to use Royal Purple MAX ATF instead of the regular stuff, too. It meets the Honda ATF-Z1 standard.
Just a "heads-up" if you did not know.
All that to say that the rear diff. uses ATF instead of gear oil because of the SHAWD. I was able to use Royal Purple MAX ATF instead of the regular stuff, too. It meets the Honda ATF-Z1 standard.
Just a "heads-up" if you did not know.
11-06-2007 | 10:12 PM
#3
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From: Orion Spur, Milky Way
Royal Purple is certainly high quality, although the cost difference wiith Honda ATF-Z1 is not large.
I presume your dealer agreed to put in the RP for you. Did they verbally indicate that it met the standard or were they able to show you a data sheet?
Can you direct us to company info showing that it meets Honda/Acura specs?
Thanks
I presume your dealer agreed to put in the RP for you. Did they verbally indicate that it met the standard or were they able to show you a data sheet?
Can you direct us to company info showing that it meets Honda/Acura specs?
Thanks
11-06-2007 | 10:20 PM
#4
Thread Starter
'06 RL Tech
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: Beaumont Texas/The Right Side of Texas
It states it on the back of the RP bottle that it meets the standard. Understand that this ATF-Z1 standard is different from the HTO-06 motor oil standard.
Mobil 1 oil change w/filter
Tire rotation
Cabin air filter change
Rear diff. change
Fill all other fluids
Royal Purple MAX ATF
Adjust headlights up
Wash and detail
Parts/fluids $148
Labor $285
Discounts -$ 63
Tax $ 12
Total $382
Mobil 1 oil change w/filter
Tire rotation
Cabin air filter change
Rear diff. change
Fill all other fluids
Royal Purple MAX ATF
Adjust headlights up
Wash and detail
Parts/fluids $148
Labor $285
Discounts -$ 63
Tax $ 12
Total $382
11-06-2007 | 11:22 PM
#5
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,670
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From: Orion Spur, Milky Way
Here is what I found on a Royal Purple product brochure:
Note the use of the word "recommended". That means recommended by Royal Purple only, and legally, means "you're on your own". This is not the same as "approved by Acura" or "accepted under the terms of Acura Warranty". With the cost of a SH-AWD unit I'd like to see approval from Acura.
Product Description
Royal Purple Max ATF Automatic Transmission Fluids are a synthetic, high performance, longlife, multipurpose, automatic transmission fluid. High performance lubricant manufacturer Royal Purple has re-formulated its Max ATF® automatic transmission fluid to meet the specifications of wider range of transmissions.
Royal Purple Max ATF Automatic Transmission Fluids are a synthetic, high performance, longlife, multipurpose, automatic transmission fluid. High performance lubricant manufacturer Royal Purple has re-formulated its Max ATF® automatic transmission fluid to meet the specifications of wider range of transmissions.
Max ATF® is recommended in vehicles requiring any of these automatic transmission fluids: Allison C-4 GM Dexron-II Nissan Matic-JAllison TES-295 GM Dexron-IID Nissan Matic-K Audi G-052-025-A2 GM Dexron-IIIG and H Toyota Type T BMW LA2634 Honda ATF-Z1 (except in CVT's) Toyota Type T-III BMW LT71141 Hyundai SP-II & SP-III Toyota Type IV Chrysler ATF+, ATF+2 JWS 3309 Voith 1161521 & 1161540 Chrysler ATF+2 Type 7176 KIA SP-II & SP-III Voith 55.6335.32 (G607) Chrysler ATF+3 MAN 339F Voith H55.6336.33 (G1363) Chrysler ATF+4 Mercedes Benz 236.x VW TL52162 Ford Mercon Mitsubishi Diamond SP-II ZF TE-ML 14B Ford Mercon V Mitsubishi Diamond SP-III ZF TE-ML 16L GM 9986195 Nissan Matic-D ZF TE-ML 17C GM Dexron.
11-07-2007 | 12:20 AM
#6
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,670
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From: Orion Spur, Milky Way
Before considering Royal Purple (even though it's high quality) or other non-Honda fluids check the legal definition of "recommendation".
I'm not trying to be a pr%ck, just wouldn't want to see someone lose a Warranty claim. I don't know how difficult Honda is, but others (VW/Audi) would jump all over non approved fluids like fiddy-cent on a cheap ho.
Recommendation
A non-binding declaration, which has no force in law and is mainly used to assist the interpretation of other acts.
A non-binding declaration, which has no force in law and is mainly used to assist the interpretation of other acts.
recommendation - Bouvier's Law Dictionary, Revised 6th Ed :
RECOMMENDATION. The giving to a person a favorable character of another.
2. When the party giving the character has acted in good faith, he is
not responsible for the injury which a third person, to whom such
recommendation was given, may have, sustained in consequence of it, although
he was mistaken.
RECOMMENDATION. The giving to a person a favorable character of another.
2. When the party giving the character has acted in good faith, he is
not responsible for the injury which a third person, to whom such
recommendation was given, may have, sustained in consequence of it, although
he was mistaken.
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11-07-2007 | 02:13 AM
#8
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From: Orion Spur, Milky Way
Perhaps this will help -- from the RDX Service Manual:
The only thing they are more fond of than interchanging "Honda" and "Acura" is that phrase "always use" -- although it is notably missing from the rear diff comment. It does give the p/n though and does not give a general fluid classification as with the Transfer Assembly.
There's not a lot of room to argue that other ATF can be substituted, particularly since this is not a common differential. The SH-AWD is new and lacks service history.
Lubricants and Fluids
Engine Motor Oil: Always use Mobil 1 p/n 5W30-MB1-000 or an equivalent oil that meets the Acura HT0-06 standard.
Automatic Transmission: Always use Honda ATF-Z1 p/n 08200-9001A. Using non Honda ATF can affect shift quality.
Transfer Assembly: Use a SAE 90 or 80W-90 hypoid gear oil, API classified GL4 or GL5 only.
Rear Differential: Honda Automatic Transmission Fluid ATF-Z1 p/n 08200-9001A.
Brake System: Always use Acura DOT 3 Brake Fluid p/n 08798-9008A. Using a non-Acura brake fluid can cause corrosion and decrease the life of the system.
Power Steering: Always use Acura Power Steering Fluid p/n 08206-9002A. Using any other type of power steering fluid...can cause increased wear and poor steering in cold weather.
Cooling System: Always use Honda Long Life Antifreeze/Coolant Type 2 p/n OL999-9001. Using a non-Honda coolant can cause corrosion, causing the cooling system to malfunction or fail.
Engine Motor Oil: Always use Mobil 1 p/n 5W30-MB1-000 or an equivalent oil that meets the Acura HT0-06 standard.
Automatic Transmission: Always use Honda ATF-Z1 p/n 08200-9001A. Using non Honda ATF can affect shift quality.
Transfer Assembly: Use a SAE 90 or 80W-90 hypoid gear oil, API classified GL4 or GL5 only.
Rear Differential: Honda Automatic Transmission Fluid ATF-Z1 p/n 08200-9001A.
Brake System: Always use Acura DOT 3 Brake Fluid p/n 08798-9008A. Using a non-Acura brake fluid can cause corrosion and decrease the life of the system.
Power Steering: Always use Acura Power Steering Fluid p/n 08206-9002A. Using any other type of power steering fluid...can cause increased wear and poor steering in cold weather.
Cooling System: Always use Honda Long Life Antifreeze/Coolant Type 2 p/n OL999-9001. Using a non-Honda coolant can cause corrosion, causing the cooling system to malfunction or fail.
There's not a lot of room to argue that other ATF can be substituted, particularly since this is not a common differential. The SH-AWD is new and lacks service history.
11-07-2007 | 07:28 AM
#9
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From: Toronto, ON, Canada
ATF-Z1 is somewhat a standard and is only formulated by Honda. Not sure how the manufacturers state their fluid can be used as replacement as Honda never released the chemical formation of their ATF-Z1.
Stick with Honda ATF-Z1 and do the flushes earlier and you will be good.
Stick with Honda ATF-Z1 and do the flushes earlier and you will be good.
11-07-2007 | 08:02 AM
#10
Thread Starter
'06 RL Tech
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 718
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From: Beaumont Texas/The Right Side of Texas
Oh well, we'll see. The dealership had no problem with using it, and didn't offer ANY objection even though I straight forwardly asked.
Sasair may be right on the "standard" part. It may be just the name.
Sasair may be right on the "standard" part. It may be just the name.
11-08-2007 | 03:28 AM
#11
Acura Technician
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
From: San Jose, Ca
ATF-Z1 is different from other ATF's. But I haven't seen any problems from using an ATF that says it's compatable. That said, I find it hard to believe that the RP provides enough of a benefit over the Z-1 to warrant it's use. Personal preference I guess
11-08-2007 | 09:39 PM
#12
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'06 RL Tech
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 718
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From: Beaumont Texas/The Right Side of Texas
Originally Posted by Sonomaa
ATF-Z1 is different from other ATF's. But I haven't seen any problems from using an ATF that says it's compatable. That said, I find it hard to believe that the RP provides enough of a benefit over the Z-1 to warrant it's use. Personal preference I guess
Personal preference, for me, is probably some of the reason because of the perfomance I've witnessed over the last 13 years using RP.
It's good to have an Acura tech here in the forum. Thanks
11-09-2007 | 01:22 AM
#13
Acura Technician
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 35
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From: San Jose, Ca
There are too many types of ATF's out there to actually discuss diferences. And I would probably need an engineering degree. But I have seen cars with harsh shifting due to the wrong type of ATF, we suspect it was Dexron or Chrysler ATF+3 but no way to confrim the fluid without lab analysis.There are some multi vehicle ATF formulas on the market now and they seem to be ok in the other cars that I've used them in (Fords and Chevys), I've never put anything other than Z1 in an Acura. I use the factory fluids on my RDX, but I get them cheap :wink: and I always change my oil filter w/ my oil.
11-09-2007 | 12:19 PM
#14
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Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Orion Spur, Milky Way
Here is a plain language explanation of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act as it applies to aftermarket parts/fluids:
If a SH-AWD unit failed with aftermarket ATF in it, there would likely be a pissing contest between Honda and (for example) Royal Purple over what caused the failure. The owner would be caught in the middle.
Bear in mind also, that Mag-Moss bears weight only in a court-room, not at the dealer service desk. A dealer may choose to deny the claim; knowing that some customers can be intimidated, and won't bother to pursue legal action.
Since JMJ's dealer installed the RP, he would probably honor the warranty, although they may find themselves in a dispute with Honda over it.
Federal Warranty Laws
1.The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302(C))
This federal law regulates warranties for the protection of consumers. The essence of the law concerning aftermarket auto parts is that a vehicle manufacturer may not condition a written or implied warranty on the consumers using parts or services which are identified by brand, trade, or corporate name (such as the vehicle maker's brand) unless the parts or service are provided free of charge. The law means that the use of an aftermarket part alone is not cause for denying the warranty. However, the law's protection does not extend to aftermarket parts in situations where such parts actually caused the damage being claimed under the warranty. Further, consumers are advised to be aware of any specific terms or conditions stated in the warranty which may result in its being voided.
1.The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302(C))
This federal law regulates warranties for the protection of consumers. The essence of the law concerning aftermarket auto parts is that a vehicle manufacturer may not condition a written or implied warranty on the consumers using parts or services which are identified by brand, trade, or corporate name (such as the vehicle maker's brand) unless the parts or service are provided free of charge. The law means that the use of an aftermarket part alone is not cause for denying the warranty. However, the law's protection does not extend to aftermarket parts in situations where such parts actually caused the damage being claimed under the warranty. Further, consumers are advised to be aware of any specific terms or conditions stated in the warranty which may result in its being voided.
Bear in mind also, that Mag-Moss bears weight only in a court-room, not at the dealer service desk. A dealer may choose to deny the claim; knowing that some customers can be intimidated, and won't bother to pursue legal action.
Since JMJ's dealer installed the RP, he would probably honor the warranty, although they may find themselves in a dispute with Honda over it.
11-10-2007 | 08:50 AM
#15
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Posts: 70
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From: Malvern, PA
The pissing contest would not be between Acura and RP. Ever known of anyone who has sued a lubricant manufacturer for a warranty claim? It would be the owner at the receiving end of the urine stream. Does Acura perform analysis of the fluid found in a failed component if said component has the proper volume of fluid in it at the time of failure? If I do all of my own fluid changes, at the proper intervals, using the recommended lubricants. How would Acura prove that I used an unrecommended fluid in the event of a failure? I typically do all of my own maintenance.
Joe
Joe
11-10-2007 | 02:36 PM
#16
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From: Orion Spur, Milky Way
Originally Posted by scudzuki
Ever known of anyone who has sued a lubricant manufacturer for a warranty claim?
3. The liability of AMSOIL INC. shall be limited to:
a. Replacement of the defective lubricant.
b. The cost, including labor and materials, to repair damaged equipment, or at the option of AMSOIL INC., the cost to replace damaged equipment, resulting directly from the use of AMSOIL INC. lubricants when used in the proper applications.
a. Replacement of the defective lubricant.
b. The cost, including labor and materials, to repair damaged equipment, or at the option of AMSOIL INC., the cost to replace damaged equipment, resulting directly from the use of AMSOIL INC. lubricants when used in the proper applications.
5. In the event of a claim against AMSOIL INC., the procedure below must be completely followed.
a. Where the original warranty from the equipment manufacturer is still in effect, the customer shall file a warranty claim with the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) in accordance with the OEM warranty procedure.
b. Customer shall retain failed parts for inspection by AMSOIL INC. unless given to the OEM.
c. Customer shall also, within 30 days of failure, notify AMSOIL INC. and provide the following:
(a.) An eight (8) ounce representative oil sample taken from the failed equipment and put into a clean container.
(b.) Documentation including make, model, and year of equipment, total accumulated miles and/or hours, and duty cycle or service environment.
(c.) Equipment or vehicle maintenance history documentation including miles or hours at the time of AMSOIL lubricant installation, general equipment repairs, and oil analysis results if available.
(d.) Proof of purchase for AMSOIL lubricant.
(e.) Batch number from oil container or Certificate of Analysis.
a. Where the original warranty from the equipment manufacturer is still in effect, the customer shall file a warranty claim with the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) in accordance with the OEM warranty procedure.
b. Customer shall retain failed parts for inspection by AMSOIL INC. unless given to the OEM.
c. Customer shall also, within 30 days of failure, notify AMSOIL INC. and provide the following:
(a.) An eight (8) ounce representative oil sample taken from the failed equipment and put into a clean container.
(b.) Documentation including make, model, and year of equipment, total accumulated miles and/or hours, and duty cycle or service environment.
(c.) Equipment or vehicle maintenance history documentation including miles or hours at the time of AMSOIL lubricant installation, general equipment repairs, and oil analysis results if available.
(d.) Proof of purchase for AMSOIL lubricant.
(e.) Batch number from oil container or Certificate of Analysis.
AMSOIL RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REJECT A WARRANTY CLAIM FOR ANY OR ALL OF THE FOLLOWING REASONS:
1. Failure to follow all OEM recommendations for warranty coverage, including lubricants, maintenance, and drain intervals, prior to the first installation of AMSOIL lubricants.
2. AMSOIL INC. was not notified within 30 days from the date of failure.
3. Claim information is insufficient.
4. Parts inspected do not substantiate a claim or indicate failure.
5. Parts requested were not sent or are unavailable for inspection.
6. Oil sample was not provided.
7. Failure of the customer to follow the written procedure herein.
8. Customer refused to cooperate with the investigation.
9. Failure was the result of an OEM defect.
1. Failure to follow all OEM recommendations for warranty coverage, including lubricants, maintenance, and drain intervals, prior to the first installation of AMSOIL lubricants.
2. AMSOIL INC. was not notified within 30 days from the date of failure.
3. Claim information is insufficient.
4. Parts inspected do not substantiate a claim or indicate failure.
5. Parts requested were not sent or are unavailable for inspection.
6. Oil sample was not provided.
7. Failure of the customer to follow the written procedure herein.
8. Customer refused to cooperate with the investigation.
9. Failure was the result of an OEM defect.
AMSOIL offers a warranty that covers the cost of repair or replacement of a proven mechanically sound engine damaged as a result of using AMSOIL synthetic motor oil. However, it has never happened....If the oil didn't cause the problem the warranty cannot be voided, regardless of brand or length of time in use.
Originally Posted by scudzuki
Does Acura perform analysis of the fluid found in a failed component if said component has the proper volume of fluid in it at the time of failure? ...How would Acura prove that I used an unrecommended fluid in the event of a failure? Joe
If I don't use genuine Whiz-Banger parts and my Whiz-Banger GT grinds to a halt....was it because I put Dura-Suck lube in the framistat? I may need a lawyer.
It's easier just to stick with OEM (and document every service) during the Warranty period.
11-10-2007 | 09:04 PM
#17
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,414
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From: Toronto, ON, Canada
Again, I've done extensive research regarding ATF specifically ATF for honda's and I'll stress this, there is NO substitute for Honda ATF-Z1.
The use of this RP, Amsoil ATF, M1 ATF is to use as top up if you cannot immediatly get Honda ATF-Z1, they recommend flushing out the oil and filling with Honda ATF-Z1 as soon as you can if you do put in other fluid.
The reason behind my research is because my prelude is an auto and it has one of the weakest autotragic transmissions honda has put out to date. (It was the test bed for the TipTronic type transmission) and I have seen and read about many of them failing due to improper fluid, lack of maintenence, driving the car how it was NOT designed to be driven and a combination of it all.
Stick with Honda ATF-Z1 and change it earlier then what Acura/Honda recommends and you will have trouble free operation from the tranny and rear diff.
The use of this RP, Amsoil ATF, M1 ATF is to use as top up if you cannot immediatly get Honda ATF-Z1, they recommend flushing out the oil and filling with Honda ATF-Z1 as soon as you can if you do put in other fluid.
The reason behind my research is because my prelude is an auto and it has one of the weakest autotragic transmissions honda has put out to date. (It was the test bed for the TipTronic type transmission) and I have seen and read about many of them failing due to improper fluid, lack of maintenence, driving the car how it was NOT designed to be driven and a combination of it all.
Stick with Honda ATF-Z1 and change it earlier then what Acura/Honda recommends and you will have trouble free operation from the tranny and rear diff.
11-15-2007 | 03:24 AM
#18
Acura Technician
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 35
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From: San Jose, Ca
I haven't seen Honda/Acura void a warranty for aftermarket fluids, but that's not to say they wouldn't. When we change a transmission under warranty we have to provide them with a paper strainer that we drained the fluid through. Dunno if they analyze the fluids though.
11-15-2007 | 03:01 PM
#19
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 971
Likes: 2
From: Hometown - Vancouver
I checked the Canadian Acura website and found that the first Rear differential fluid change should occur @ 12,000 km, and then 24,000 km thereafter.
It is really not that expensive, @ $70.00 + tax (parts and labour included).
My RDX is at about 11,000 km. Question, should I change it as per recommendation from Acura?
It is really not that expensive, @ $70.00 + tax (parts and labour included).
My RDX is at about 11,000 km. Question, should I change it as per recommendation from Acura?
11-15-2007 | 03:07 PM
#20
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 971
Likes: 2
From: Hometown - Vancouver
Originally Posted by JMJ3rd
It states it on the back of the RP bottle that it meets the standard. Understand that this ATF-Z1 standard is different from the HTO-06 motor oil standard.
Mobil 1 oil change w/filter
Tire rotation
Cabin air filter change
Rear diff. change
Fill all other fluids
Royal Purple MAX ATF
Adjust headlights up
Wash and detail
Parts/fluids $148
Labor $285
Discounts -$ 63
Tax $ 12
Total $382
Mobil 1 oil change w/filter
Tire rotation
Cabin air filter change
Rear diff. change
Fill all other fluids
Royal Purple MAX ATF
Adjust headlights up
Wash and detail
Parts/fluids $148
Labor $285
Discounts -$ 63
Tax $ 12
Total $382
Wash and detail, hmmm... some elbow grease with car shampoo and a good quality car wax and one afternoon would solve that.
Cabin filter change is really easy as well... 10 min job...
oil/filter change, another 20 min job...
JMHO...
11-15-2007 | 09:08 PM
#21
Intermediate
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by mav238
I checked the Canadian Acura website and found that the first Rear differential fluid change should occur @ 12,000 km, and then 24,000 km thereafter.
It is really not that expensive, @ $70.00 + tax (parts and labour included).
My RDX is at about 11,000 km. Question, should I change it as per recommendation from Acura?
It is really not that expensive, @ $70.00 + tax (parts and labour included).
My RDX is at about 11,000 km. Question, should I change it as per recommendation from Acura?
12,000 km = 7500 miles (approx.)
Wow that seems too soon. I just got the first A6 service indicator (oil and rear differential fluid change) at 14000 miles. I thought similar to oil condition check, the rear diff fluid condition is also monitored by some sensor.
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