I think that the following stuff will give 270 at the crank on the V6 CL's. What do you guys think. The following is my logic. The automatic 3.0 CL's have a parasitic lost of about 22%. They make about 156 at the wheels. To have 270HP at the crank, you would have to make about 211 HP at the wheels. Therefore an increase of 55 HP (at the wheels is need).

The following is the parts list and and estimation of how much HP they give at the wheels. I tried to look at other posts and be as realistic and conservative as possible.

Denso Iridium Spark Plugs (~1.5 HP)
AEM CAI (~7 HP)
Comptech Headers(~15HP)
Custom Cat-back with universal exhaust(~4HP)
UR Pullies (~12HP)
Helix PowerTower Throttle Body Spacer (~3 HP)
CL-S CAMS (~10 HP)
V-AFC(~3HP)

This all adds up to 55.5HP. Not to mention that some people will argue that some of those things on that list will make more power then I listed them at.

 

uhhh, yeah sounds pretty close, but who gives a fuck about hp to the crank. I mean yeah it's cool to say "my cl has 270 hp, but thats pretty weak to only put 211 to the wheels . are you planning on getting al these mods? it would still be pretty quick, don't get me wrong.

only downfall... all that power and your just gonna have to buy a new tranny

 

I'd say some of those numbers are "very best case scenerio's"

 

i think the #'s look pretty conservative actually. but thats JMO

doesn't fastvetcCL have most of those mods, plus the n2o?

 

I get what you're saying but I don't think 211 to the wheels is weak at all. In fact I think that's very good. Put it this way, 211 to the wheels would give you a car that puts more power to the wheels then any stock Honda or Acura excluding the NSX. That means more horse power at the wheels then the S2000, RSX, Prelude, Integra TypeR, and Civic Type R. Of course because of our weight and the fact that we don't have a manual tranny we won't be as fast as those cars but it still would be cool.

However like you said after all this power one might need a new tranny (that can be argued though cuz some 98-02 Accord V6 owners are making similar numbers with their stock trannies), well a member on V6performance.net has successfully swapped the A-CL tranny on to their Accord V6 which has the same engine as ours. If an A-CL tranny was added to that list the car would make more like 220 to the wheels and then would be faster then some of the cars I listed before.

 

I would love to see a dyno run that proves this to be true. I think I would forego the cam replacement because of the expense and be happy with 195WHP if its posssible.

All I need are the UR pullies the V-AFC and the Helix and I'm there.

 

Theres no way you will get that much horsepower with that, you will be lucky to break 200. Good luck to you though.

 

This is my logic:

If the 3.0 is rated at 200HP at the crank, the absolute best one can do is retrieve the HP lost through the drive train -- UNLESS -- mods are made to increase air and fuel into the cylinders to create more than the 200 crank HP.

In other words, CAI, pulleys, plugs, exhaust, etc. will only work towards regaining the HP lost through the drive train.

An engine producing 200HP can only put down 200 HP at the wheels unless you increase the engine capacity to make MORE crank HP.

Am I wrong in this line of reasoning?

 

i don't get what your saying, but your probably right cause you're pretty smart.:thinking:

 

Mods are not cumulative either.

 

I guess my point is that an engine cannot put more HP down on the ground than it makes at the crank. In all cases, the crank HP is more than the WHP. So, the best we can do it try to regain what HP is lost through the drive train with CAI, exhaust, pulleys, plugs, etc. Even with considerable bolt-ons, it's difficult to dyno a car (WHP) to regain it's original crank HP.

With that said, the only way to increase the 3.0 beyond 200 crank HP is to modify the engine to create more HP in the cylinders through increased fuel and air. This can be done through turbo, supercharger, or N2O (or other internal modifications). Once the engine is able to create more crank HP, will we then see WHP go beyond 200.

Does this make any sense?

 

Kind of, but why wouldn't you think e/i/h/p and other bolt ons give you any hp to the crank?

 

That makes perfect sense. A car that creates 200 hp at the crank can not also create more than 200+ hp at the wheels. Adding i/h/e/p only helps get the wheel hp closer to the crank hp. it can not exceed it. In order to do so you must make the engine itself create more hp to the crank by forced induction or nos. dustbuster is one smart dude

 

That's my point. Isn't crank HP determined without all of the engine's accessories. Just the motor without alternator, a/c, power steering pump (hence no pulleys), no exhaust connected to the motor (hence no restriction), no air intake (hence no air restriction), plus stock plugs and wires. Essentially no emmissions restrictions and no power train to drain the HP generated at the crank.

Once you put on the stock air system, stock exhaust, alternator, a/c compressor, power steering pump, etc. AND THEN run the power through an auto tranny, you're losing tons of power.

Putting on pulleys, CAI, custom exhaust, etc. only yields back the power that was lost through the accessories and drive train.

This is just my thinking, just trying to make sure that my reasoning is correct.

 

i am making over 300hp to the crank

with spray:P

 

Dustbuster, that is a very interesting thing that you bought up. At first it sounded stupid to me, but then I thought about it and it does make sense. Though the A-CL cams,the V-AFC, and the Denso Iridium sparkplugs are all mods that actually change an aspect of the engine and not increase airflow.

Though your theory makes lots of sense I don't see how the V6 accord guys are making more then 200 at the wheels with similar mods to the ones I've mentioned. I've never seen them make over 210 though, but I regularly see guys dynoing at 200-205 on those boards with similar mods.

 

Adding mods will give you more horsepower at the crank also, they are just not cumulative as Got Rice? stated. When adding mods you are making your engine run more efficiently, producing more power to the wheels and the crank.

 

I agree with what moforose said. The crank HP taken is stock with the air flow restriction stock parts on...NOT with all the accessories off. When you switch to aftermarket, airflow efficiency is increased and thus the crank HP is also increased.

For example...Take a TT Supra...The downpipe adds 40 whp. Now add that to the 280-290 whp they dyno at. Thats already 320-330 whp...which is already equal to the stock crank HP of 320. Mind you...this is ONE mod. Not even adding exhaust yet. Adding another bolton would create over 320 whp...which D4's theory would claim is the "limit" without adding more boost, nitrous, cams, etc.

Thus...D4's theory fails.

 

Any time you creat more wheel HP you had to have increased crank HP. I think what you are trying to say Dust, is that exceeding the stock crank Hp at wheels is difficult and I agree but any mod that increases WHP will have also increased CHP. And unless you change the drivetrain to make it more effichant you will still lose approxamatly 22% of the CHP by the time it reaches the wheels/tires.

Hears one. At what point by increasing HP do you over come a loss of HP through perasitic use of the engine. I would think the percentage of loss would deminish with the increase of engine HP.

 

One problem with this statement. In some cases synergy is created by the combination of two mods over one and the sum of the two mods is greater than each mod taken individualy.

Example: CAI = 5hp
Exhaust = 5hp

Together they can = 12hp

 

Usually mods are the OPPOSITE of synergistic if you look at dyno charts. So its more like this...

Example: CAI = 5hp
Exhaust = 5hp

Together they can = 8hp

 

ok people, of course your whp can never be greater than your crank hp unless you get one of those electric motors on your back wheels like some of the new "hybrid" cars have duh. There are 2 kinds of mods.

1 type: Adds to your crank hp. (ie. intake, changing of a/f ratio, nos, turbos, headers,exhaust,etc.)
YES those all increase your crank hp. and thus these will all increase the hp going to your wheels (and yes all of this hp is still subject to the % lost going through your drivetrain components.)


Type 2: Lightweight flywheel, lighter rims, changing your gear ratios, lightweight driveshafts etc. These mods will decrease the % of lost hp that you lose between the crank and your wheels thus bringing yout wheel hp upwards and closer to your crank hp.

Do you understand now?

p.s.It is impossible for your crank hp to ever be == to your wheel hp unless you mount your wheel on the side of the engine. Motorcycles are the only ones that come real close to this.

 

Depends on the mods and the engine. Im talking about real dyno increases not manufactors claims vs final dyno results.

 

I fully agree with your statement ..... But that is not what Dust started this conversation with. At least not as I understood it.

So if I got a car that looses 22% of 200hp to the drivetrain and I modifie the engine so I'm gettin 1,000hp would I still lose 22% of that Hp to the wheels? Of course this would be measured just before the transmission exploded!

 

So final dyno results are fake? I don't understand what you're trying to say. Manufacturers also have dyno results...as far as I know, those are "real" too.

 

No. What I am talking about is the percentage of gain claimed by most manufactors for thier products and they lead you to belaeve this to be true in all applications.
Here is an example of what I am talking about. Look in Oct.2003 Super Street starting on page 144.

Stock RSX 168.8hp
With CAI 171.8
With Exhaust 171.4
Whith the combo 179.3
3+2.6 = 10.7hp ------- Synergy

 

There's so many factors involved...temp, humidity, elevation, etc.

Just because you don't get the same gains cause its 100 degrees outside doesn't mean the gains are "fake." If they intentionally put up fake numbers, that would be false advertisement and thats a big nono with the BBB.

In most cases, you're not gonna get synergy in NA tuning with free flow mods.

 

2 outa three an't bad. And yea the BBB scares the hell outa advertisers! Have you got a Tornado on your car Rice?:P

 

..heh haven't been here awhile.. but um.. your 270hp to the crank with bolt on's is complete horse shit.. and a 75 shot of nitrous on a 4 cylinder will walk on the 270hp to the crank like your stopped.. honestly.. you'll never see that kinda gain from bolt ons.. forced induction is the only way your going race respectively with a cl. btw.. who's still on this forum.. shout out!

 

Welcome back!

Long time, no "hear"!

 

Nope

 

After reading these various post I have changed my opinion, I don't think the a 3.0 will make 270 at the crank with these mods, but I still think it'll get some real good gains. Maybe around 250 at the crank.

edmunds.com says that the 2001 acura CL type-S with automatic transmission will run the quarter mile just over 15 flat. How could a 3.0 not approach those times with all the mods I listed above. Those mods have to get this car down in the mid to low 15s. My point is, if the 3.0 is getting similar times to a stock 260 HP car then it must be making similar power.

 

Not true. 1/4 times can be deiciving because of gear ratios in the transmission as well as the differentals. Just because cars are running equal trap speeds doesn't mean they are running equal hp.

And mods DO add crank hp, and wheel hp responds because of that. If you think that putting colder air into the cylinder (with a CAI of course) then you are talking about increasing the horsepower output of the ENGINE, which mean the crank HP will be higher. When people say you are 'gaining back lost HP,' that really is only applicable when you talk about things like cleaning the engine or polishing the heads, or doing things to counteract the reasons engines lose power over time. Bolt on mods like CAI, short rams, Headers, etc. increase the crank HP of your car, therefore increasing the WHP of your car.

 

How is what I said not true. I didn't say that if you're getting the same times you are making the same power. I know there are little variables and that's why I said you must be making similar power.

 

Ok ok at first hearing dust i thought it made no sence but now i understand.

the real question that breaks his theory down is, "is an engine dynoed with stock air rectriction componants in place" someone already said yes, that just the tranny and compressor etc aren't connected

the supra TT is different cause thats forced induction

 

Ok. Just read it the wrong way i suppose. My bad

 

And why is that any different if you don't change boost? (which would fall more into the tuning side).

Its still dynoed with air restriction parts on.

 

yeah, i agree.. 270 hp with bolt on's is :wackit:

 

damn fode its been a minute since youve been on. what car you drivin these days?

 

well um.. nice to see everyone.. sorry for posting in an old topic.. but i figured .. wtf not.. I had a Suzuki '99 GSXR750 for the summer.. did some really cool tricks on it.. 185mph top speed.. which i personally tested .. and um.. i dumped that at 80mph.. got some road rash on my back and hands.. and lost my license for a year due to lack of driving requirments (registration, insurance, ficticous plates).. so now I have a year to work on a project.. My brother now owns that piece of shit civic ferio SiR and he's making it a full drag car once again.. I personally am importing a civic SiR hatch or a type r hatch.. and I have a few sponsors lined up to make a pro rally car.. so.. what is everyone else up to.. hows the cls?