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This thread is intended not only to discuss the various brands of data loggers, but to also illustrate how a data logger can reveal important information. To ideally tune and modify your car, you need insight into how your changes affect the car, tuning wise and performance wise.

Seat-of-the-pants (aka, butt dyno) is a very unreliable method to discern performance improvements. Granted that the butt dyno can perceive changes in acceleration (g-forces). However, if your mod alters the powerband, then this will totally throw-off your ability to judge the improvement from your mod. For example, I can alter my powerband to have a weak low-end. When the top-end kicks-in, the car feels awesome fast because of the sudden rush in g-force from the top-end compared to the weak bottom-end. On the other hand, I can make my car have super strong bottom-end power. When the top-end kicks-in, I feel no increase in g-force. Thus, the car feels slow. With a data loggers however, I can see that the real data indicates that the car has the identical top-end performance. This is just one of the many powerful features of a data logger.

A data logger is also valuable to understanding what the car's computer (ECU) is doing. This is how I became interested in data loggers. I had removed my oem knock sensor to make room for an aftermarket Bosch wideband knock sensor (click here) . This messed-up my oem tune by causing the ecu to give too much ignition timing or too little.

This unexpected loss of my tuning made me realize how important and sensitive the tune was to our J32 engine. It then became a priority to get a firm handle on this tuning situation. I needed to "blueprint" the oem tune before making any other changes to my setup. No more "flying in the dark" with the tuning mods. I needed to document (blueprint) the various performance parameters (ignition timing, afr, knock retard) and to document the actual performance (acceleration rate). In this way, I will know if I am harming or helping my overall situation. And if the performance does drop-off, I will be able to pinpoint why and where the problem exist.

I was fortune to learn about the DynoDash. Not only did it offer the ability to document (log) the tuning parameters from the ecu, it also offered a method to document my performance (acceleration rate) for later comparison. I have been waiting for a product like this for years. To me, it is superior to the other performance meters that rely on accelerometers. The DashDyno is identical to a "fifth wheel" like "Car and Driver" (and other car magazine) had used in the past to collect their performance data. The DashDyno is also able to record live data from the ecu, such as ignition timing, throttle position, knock retard, intake temp. The recorded data can be viewed later on your personal computer alongside the actual performance numbers (acceleration rate). Hugely powerful tool for my needs. As long as it lived-up to it's claims, I had no problem spending the money for it.

Granted, the HP feature of these data loggers might not be very accurate. However, the data is good enough to be able to benchmark your car run-for-run against itself to test performance modifications.

Auterra DashDyno (click here)




Others include -

Bully Dog's WatchDog (click here)

MSD Dashhawk (click here)

DashDAQ (click here)

Innovate Motorsports OpenTune (click here)

AutoEnginuity's Scan Tool (click here)

Palmer Performance Engineering (click here)

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Below is a pic of my DashDyno




Below is an example of the included software. Click pic to see larger size.

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GRAPH 1 BELOW. Click pic to see larger size.



GRAPH 2 BELOW. Click pic to see larger size.




As discussed in the Knock Monitor (click here) thread, I am able to induce timing retard with a pseudo knock sensor. I have been experimenting with various mounting locations for this sensor.

Above is Graph 1 (henceforth called G1) and Graph 2 (G2). The two graphs are from identical locations along my daily commute, with identical weather conditions, and nearly identical everything. Only thing different is that G1 was from yesterday morning with the sensor in a position that induces approximately 8* of retard. Whereas G2 is from this morning with the sensor in a position that should be giving no retard (yet to be confirmed).

In both graphs, you can see the transmission (5AT) shifting thru the gears under light throttle (19% - 23%). By the way, the throttle is Absolute Throttle Position (ATP). The ATP has a range from 15% to 80%. It does not range from 0% to 100%. Idle is 15% and WOT is approx 80%. The trans shifts 1-2 at point A, shifts 2-3 at point B, shifts 3-4 at point C. and shifts 4-5 at point D.

The area of interest is as the engine climbs up the 5th gear from point D to point E. This is accelerating from 50 mph to 60 mph.

Look at points F & G in G1. Compare that to points F & G in G2. Huge difference in timing. The timing in G1 ranges from 16* to 24* between F & G. Whereas in G2, the timing is 32* to 34* between F & G. This is a difference of 16* and 10*, respectively.


By the way, please give me some feedback on how these graphs are appearing on your screen. Can you read the vertical text along the scales on the left side ? Can you click on the pic to enlarge it ? Suggestions on how to best illustrate the graphs are welcomed.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

The graphs look great. Especially after you click on it and it opens another window

Do you have any feel for how compatible the serial datastreams are between vendors?

Now that I am finally finished installing the turbo, I would really like to go to the next level and start understanding some of the cause and effects of making changes.

I have an AEM UEGO which has both a 0-5V and serial datastream and I am thinking seriously about the Innovate OT-2. But I haven't found anything about MTS being compatible with other units other than Innovate units.

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I have not yet fully learned about the serious data loggers, such as the OT-2.

My attention up to this point was limited to the entry-level loggers, such as the DashDyno and the MSD Dashhawk.

I have not learned anything about the datastreams.

The only thing that I can offer is that the 0-5V is pretty much an industry standard for the data loggers and gauges. Even the DashDyno has a input for any 0-5V signal. In the DashDyno manual, it explains how to enter a math formula to allow the unit to interpret the 0-5V into a meaningful value on the DashDyno display.

I do recommend something more than just an entry-level logger for your needs with the turbo. The OT-2, from what little I have seen of it, seems to be a great choice for you. I see that Innovate sells other units to expand the functionality of the OT-2.

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IHC,

I learned something valuable for you this morning. I remember reading in the "Valve Chatter/Pinging/Knocking in 2007 TypeS" thread that you wondered how quickly or slow the ecu would replace timing once the knocking was gone. I have some helpful info.

For my morning commute and evening commute yesterday, I had my pseudo sensor in a position to retard the timing.

But last night, I moved the sensor to a place that should give me no retard (yet to be confirmed). On purpose, I did *not* reset the ecu to see how the ecu would react. To my surprise this morning, the ecu was still remembering from yesterday and severely retarding the timing. I thought to myself "oh crap, I have to drive this wet noodle all day." There is a big difference in part-throttle power between full timing and the retarded timing. Easy to tell the difference.

After I had come to a stop after traveling 8 miles at a steady 55 mph, I was shocked to feel that most (but not all) of the power had been returned.

The ecu returned most of my timing after 8 miles. So, somewhere between getting on the main road and 8 miles later, the ecu returned most of the timing. It takes me about 2 miles from my driveway, thru the subdivision, smaller road, before I hit that main road, where I traveled those 8 miles. The car was a wet noodle (poor bottom end) for those first 2 miles.

I hate cars

Very good info!

That's actually good to hear that it has some sort of semi- long term memory. Much of the stuff I'm used to and some of the stand alones pull timing out and put it back in, in 1-1.4 seconds.

So to get this right, correct me if I'm wrong, but if the TL has sustained detonation, it could take close to 8 miles to put it all back in assuming none is encountered in those 8 miles. If it pings, timing is immediately pulled....

I hate cars

If this is too off topic, let me know and I'll take it to PM....

What kind of oil are you using? What I'm curious about is if the knock sensor in certain locations is picking up on valvetrain noise. The reason for the question is my valvetrain went silent once I installed Redline 30wt. I've seen valvetrain cause false KR on my GNs, the one with the solid cam can't use the knock sensor which really sucks. The TL's system is more advanced and it's only a guess but I would think valvetrain noise from an OHC engine would have a harder time making it's way to the sensor.

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Leaving this morning for 2 miles (4 minutes), it was still pulling approx 8*. Just like it was running from yesterday.

I get on a main road and set cruise control for 8 miles (9 minutes) at 55 mph. At this 8 mile point, I slow to about 30 mph and apply light throttle and I feel most of the timing has returned.

The timing was still 8* retarded at anything more than light acceleration.

For the remaining part of my morning commute, I feel it restoring timing in other parts of the throttle range. But, still not fully back.

On my commute home this afternoon, I felt that 90% of the timing had been restored to all areas of the throttle.

I rebooted the ecu tonight so I can move on to other testing. I now know that a ecu reboot is a must to get clean testing results. If I don’t reset the ecu, my testing will be blurred by the ecu making decision based on old data.

After approx 10 miles or 12 minutes, it restored most of the timing just in light throttle areas. Anything more than light throttle still had 8* retard (based on feel).

To put it all back was not until midway thru my commute home. This would be 60 miles or 90 minutes needed to restore the timing all back. And honestly, it never really came all back. Just about 90% was restored. These figures are all based on feel (drivability).

I don’t know if you remember, but I have mentioned in the past how I do everything the same, everyday along my daily commute. Same lane, same time, same everything. To my surprise, this REALLY shows in the data logging. In a few days, I will show you charts to illustrate this. So, it is very easy for me to spot difference in my setup.


I am currently using RedLine 0W20.

You are right about the valve train creating background vibration. This is one of the reasons why it is so important where the sensor is mounted. Any knock sensor is just measuring vibration (granted in a certain frequency). A profile must be established as to what is considered to be just background vibration versus detonation ringing.

I had learned this in my researching stage of knock monitors. This is why I was so dead-set on putting the aftermarket sensor in the oem location. It is that important.

This is also why I was glad that I had a CEL causing approx 0* timing (aka, zero timing advance). This allowed me to profile my background vibration while being completely free of all detonation.

That is, with the CEL and no ignition advance, I was able to determine that a reading of 35% on the Phormula Knock Monitor is from the background vibration (such as the valve train). Anything higher than 35% reading on the Phormula will be detonation.

KzooTL

Have you used it to record intake temps? Can this also give readouts from 02 sensors, coolant sensors etc.?

Seems very cool, i have been looking for an all in 1 monitoring solution that plugs into the obd2 port for awhile, just hard to find one with all the features.

I hate cars

You're going to make me spend money lol. I love data gathering. Once again, thanks for shedding light on this. It's MUCH different than what I'm used to.

I know most factory systems can tell detonation from background noise by the frequency (hz) using the sensor as a buffer. Once thing I learned when going to a fast ramp cam was GM (Bosch) had several different knock sensors that would work with our cars and each had a slightly different working frequency required to produce a voltage. I also learned that thread locker on the threads or just a change in torque on the sensor would change the results. I could also knock on the heads with a wrench and see knock retard on the scanner.

On the Phormula, what is that percent based on? Is it frequency (hz) or frequency (how often), or both? Keep up the good work! I'm learning a lot more about the TL everytime you post.

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During idle while coasting, the timing stays at a constant 7*
But at a complete stop (0 mph), the timing jumps around between 0 and 13*. Sometimes it will even jump to negatives numbers around -3*.

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Click pic to see larger size.




This shows my complete morning commute from this morning. This is what the logging file looks like before you zoom-in on the time scale.

Section A is time spent in the garage warming-up car and doing an idle relearn.

Section B is a section of road where I was using cruise control. Speed limit is 55, and there are many cops along this section (between timeline 400 to 950).

Section C is sitting in Park while I get gasoline and get the ipod ready for the freeway portion coming up.

At timeline 1450, we are entering the big freeway. Woo hoo.... Let's roll !

From timeline 1450 to 2850 is all freeway. You can see in the later part were I back the speed down to 64 mph and put the cruise control on. Cop area in this section and I seldom ever speed along this area.

From timeline 2850 to the end is city streets (40 mph zone) and pulling into work parking lot.

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Don't think that I have knock retard when you see the timing (blue line) take a deep nose dive.

Whenever you take your foot off of the gas pedal, the ecu will set the timing to 0* and stop the fuel injectors. In other words, while coasting (foot off of gas pedal) whenever you are above approx 20 mph, there is no combustion (no timing and no fuel injection).

In the graph, you can see everytime that the gas pedal is off (red line) that the timing (blue line) goes to 0*.

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In graph above, notice how much the timing fluctuates (between white lines). This is with the pseudo sensor in the position that gives 8* retard (in general).




In the graph below, the timing is much more stable (between white lines).

This is my goal. To find a location to put the pseudo sensor that will give me the fullest timing mapping. Unfortunately, the DashDyno does not show Knock Retard. I really hate that. I have to do a lot of testing just to see if I am getting any retard.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I'm looking at the DashDyno SPD and it has 4 analog inputs. So I think it could do the job for me. I do like the OT-2 but it appears you have to stay with all Innovate gauges.

Since I have already spent the money on an AEM wideband, I still wondering what I should do.

So I have a some questions for both you and IHC.

I'm looking at the parameter list for all the scantool hardware, none lists knock. Is the only way to see this is to buy a knock sensor and feed it as an aux input?

What other external devices should be added as critical or just good the know instead of using the stock sensors?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!

I hate cars

I'm at work so I can't see the pictures for another 6hours.

In response to the idle timing a few posts above, it's normal for idle timing to fluctuate a lot. This is how they fine tune the idle speed and keep it so perfectly stable. It can change timing in miliseconds while opening and closing the TB while it's fast is not that fast. I'm sure you know this, just throwing it out there for everyone else.

For finding the best spot for the sensor, what about running the timing super conservative or adding some extra octane so that you know there is no knock and finding a place that shows the least noise. You've already run it on 87 and 91 so you have an idea of what real knock looks like. I'm sure if you found a place that showed no knock on 87 it would be immediately obvious too.

I'm all for doing your own thing but many times the factory has the sensor in the best location. FWIW, the knock is going to occur in the combustion chamber/upper cylinder area. Unfortunately most of it is damped with water jackets. I guess you really couldn't do a single sensor near a single cylinder...... A somewhat central location in the valley seems to be the most neutral area.

Just rambling now.... My GN's sensor is in the back of the block, right where the transmission bellhousing bolts up. I've often wondered about putting the sensor in a more sensitive location (for the front cylinders) but with the cam right there it would probably pick up more noise. I tried and tried to find a better location but couldn't think of any. I'm not sure just how much the difference in block materials influences the way the sound travels but I'm sure it does make a difference. I would think aluminum would be more critical to sensor placement since it's less dense but that's my own theory.

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For any gauge that you would want to log with the DashDyno or other loggers, the gauge must have an output of 0-5V or 0-12V. The DashDyno manual (click here) has details. You might need to right-click and do a "Save Link As" before opening the PDF.

These ODB scanners read the basic ODB parameters. However, many auto makers have developed their own proprietary advanced parameters, called Enhanced Parameters. Knock Retard is an Enhanced parameter. Most (or all) of the scanner makers charge a lot more money as an option to allow you to read any Enhanced parameters (specific to that make of auto). In the case of DashDyno, they do not even offer any Enhanced option for the Honda/Acura. I emailed them to confirm it.

Regarding the knock sensor - You can *not* hook-up a knock sensor directly to any logger. A knock sensor produces a very low voltage signal that is erratic and crude in nature. The most important component of any Knock Monitor is the micro-processor in the control box. The crude output signal from the sensor is processed by the micro-processor based on that company's programming. This is why a Knock Monitor from Brand X will perform drastically different than Brand Y, although both brands use the identical Bosch Wideband Knock Sensor. It is a very difficult task, programming wise, to distinguish between background vibration and true detonation ringing.

IHC - Although any knock sensor is biased to a certain frequency range, closest to that of detonation ringing, this does not mean that the sensor is not also picking-up background vibration in that same frequency. Detonation ringing does not have an exclusive frequency range that is free of other stuff. Other stuff does emit vibration is the same frequency as the detonation ringing. It is the job of the micro-processor to use advanced logic to discern the difference. Even the best Knock Monitors are not able to truly filter-out the background vibration. The most that can be hoped for is to reduce the background stuff as much as possible while highlighting the detonation ringing. For example, this is why the Phormula produces a reading of 35% even though I have no detonation. The 35% is the background noise that could only be filter-out to that extent. And, Phormula is one of the best units available.

And as a side note - The frequency of detonation ringing is determined by the engine bore diameter. Most Knock Monitors have a configurable setting so that you can set the exact frequency for your bore size.

KN - This does not mean that you can't have a logger to record the knock. This can be done. But you need to purchase a complete Knock Monitor system, such as the Phormula KS-4 (not KS-3). The KS-4 does have a 0-5V output signal meant to be used with a logger.

Here is some additional advice that I have learned the hard way. Don't think that you can watch the gauges while your car is wot. Even with my gauges mount right in front of me on the A-column, I am not able to really monitor them when I really need it, which is wot. The most that I can do is to just catch a quick glimpse of one gauge. One trick that does help in this regards is to rotate the gauge in such a fashion that the needle is pointing straight-up or down at a predetermined limit. For example, my afr gauge is rotated so that 11.0 will be pointing straight upward. And my EGT gauge's needle will point straight down when the temp is 1500* F.

With a quick glance, my eye needs to just see the angle of the needle, which the human brain is very good at doing by instinct. I do not need to "read" the gauge.

On a positive note, I will say that the Phormula's display is well designed. It is easy to watch it out of the corner on my eye, even wot in traffic...usually

The main point is that a logger is extremely helpful because you can not read multiple gauges when you need it the most, which is wot for a brief few seconds when all of your attention and concentration will be demand to keep the car straight. For me, if the my tuning situation calls for it, I plan to hold a video camera on my gauges while testing down a back road.

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IHC - My reply to you in the post above was meant to address your reply from yesterday. Shortly, I will comment on your reply from a hour ago.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Thanks.

I was hoping that I could save some money by using the stock knock system.

Honda seems to be off the list for all vendors with regard to enhanced parameters.

Now to decide on switching to Innovate for MTS compatibility, which has boxes to look at everything or go generic analog inputs which also involves some work beyond just hooking it up.....thinking Innovate.

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IHC,

Are you thinking that I am trying to make the pseudo sensor to act like a real one? This is not the case. My goal is to have the ecu give me the full timing mapping at all times.

I will remove all traces of detonation with water/meth injection while non-boosted, and with massive quantities of pure methanol during nitrous boost. The sub-zero intake temps will help too. I will be moving the IAT sensor too to prevent the ecu from adding even more timing due to the freezing temps.

One worry is that the factory tuned the ecu with way too much timing and it must use knock retard to trim it back. From what I have seen thus far, this is not the case. I do have detonation is small areas of the map, but I trust that the water/meth injection will cure it.

With the nitrous, the detonation will be kept away by huge quantities of pure methanol. I am *not* talking about water/meth injection (but that will be spraying too as part of the n/a wot treatment). I am talking about the engine running off of a huge percentages of pure methanol. I will be using methanol as the sole source of supplementary fuel for the nitrous system.

Back to the pseudo sensor. The pseudo sensor is used just to prevent a CEL. MY goal is to locate it some where so that it sends the smallest signal possible to the ecu to keep the ecu happy. But, no where near enough signal to make the ecu to retard the ignition.

Regarding your comment that "many times the factory has the sensor in the best location" - I agree 100%. This is why I ousted the oem sensor to use that spot for my Phormula sensor. You taught me how important it is to monitor knock. It was my priority to have the best Knock Monitoring possible. Without it, I would not dare run the nitrous. To get the best monitoring possible meant using the best location for my Phormula sensor, which is the oem spot.

For reference, sensor location and the importance of proper tightening is also discussed in the Knock Monitor (click here) thread..

Researching google shows that most people agree that the optimum location is the oem location for any engine. If someone really wanted to read more about the best location, they could purchase this SAE paper, “Combustion Knock Sensing--Sensor Selection and Application Issues “ (click here)

Regarding the steel versus aluminum issue - I do recall reading about this concern. The conclusion was that the steel engine block does allow easier detection of detonation. However, the aluminum engine block does not really cause a problem with detection.

I hate cars

Yes! That clears things up tremendously. I was thinking of something to say without insulting your intelligence. So you're looking for a location that will pick up normal background noise to satisfy the computer but no detonation (ideally) so that the computer will never pull timing.
This is good to hear. However, I'm still worried with my car since for a given acceleration rate it will always be under more load and with hotter IATs so more prone to detonation.
So by pure methanol, you're talking about no water in the mix, right? Car will still runs off of gasoline and you're providing nitrous fuel enrichment with the meth. NA detonation resistance and cooling via a water/meth mix? This is the only thing I would want to change, I just don't like water/meth and especially when you don't have boost to turn up to make up for the power loss. Unless you're running a very small shot, timing won't fully make up for it.

So I'm guessing it will be 2 separate tanks of the blend and the straight meth.

I don't want to pry, but how large of a shot do you plan on running? I have a strange feeling it's going to be 150+ with all of this prep work lol.
Got it. So much clearer now.
I'm sure aluminum is trouble free. I've noticed in many iron block engines, the knock sensor is sometimes in weird locations while in aluminum engines they tend to be in the more centrally located valley area. It could also be coincidence because most aluminum engines are also OHC, freeing up the valley area.

This just lead me to believe that positioning *might* be more critical with aluminum engines.

Inaccurate

I got a good laugh from the "what to say without insulting" part. I been in those situations too.


Right. Two independent tanks and pumps.

Nitrous System = Tank A with pure methanol with Pump A.
N/A = Tank B with water/methanol with Pump B

I am aware of the issue of "putting the fire out" with too much water. This was the other reason for getting the DashDyno. With the DashDyno, I will be able to experiment with the water amounts (injection rate) and see if I am hurting performance. I had no original plans of spraying water for n/a. But upon discovering that the lack of a knock sensor now causes detonation at the extreme upper RPM's, I have no choice now. This is for n/a wot. I do have confidence that the pure methanol + nitrous would have no detonation at all. But for times when I wot without the nitrous, I would need something.

The water for n/a was a recent decision. I am still debating. Are there times when I will wot without the nitrous? If not, then I might just skip the water for n/a. Still thinking about this one.

Right. Under nitrous boost, the oem fuel injectors will still function as normal. But, large amounts of methanol is added via a Wilson V-Force Nozzle (click here). As I am sure that you are aware, it takes approx 2-1/2 times as much methanol than gasoline. I will be pushing the flow limits of the nitrous fogger nozzle with the methanol. For the methanol, I designed the system to operate with the regular 200 psi head pressure of the pump to meet the flow requirements thru the nozzle.

There are certain things that stick out like a sore thumb with the J32. One is that the J32 LOVES cold induction and loves timing. I plan to give it what it wants. Fogged methanol and liquid nitrous oxide, plus full timing mapping, should put a smile on it's face.


This is not a "store bought" kit. This is a custom system that I designed myself. "Hand picking" each component. I designed the system from the ground-up to have a maximum shot of 125. Not that I plan to ever use the max. Not at all. Seriously. But with an engineering background yourself, you know that certain parameters must be established before designing anything. And after much deep thinking, I decide that the most that I would ever dare to use would be around 100-125.

And when I say 125, that is just based on the amount of the nitrous. A nitrous system will make substantially more power when methanol is used for the supplementary fuel. So, I got to be careful in this regard. Methanol will be used as the supplementary fuel for the nitrous. The methanol will be bringing some horsepower to the party in itself. Thus, it will be hard to make estimates of my power increases. Methanol is known to cause an approx 10% horsepower improvement in itself. For example, if I was using a 50-hp shot of nitrous, I could be making an overall 60 or 70 hp when combines with the methanol.

One advantage of designing my own system versus purchasing an off-the-shelf kit is that I can slowly work my way up the horsepower ladder in small increments. I plan to begin the initial shake-down usage with 20 shot. Then migrate upward in 10-HP increments from the initial 20 shot. However, I plan to stop at around 75. I have no plans of exceeding maybe 90 at the most.

The greatest problem with running nitrous is human greed. I listen to a song often that phrases it well -

"Clip the wings that get you high,
just leave them where they lie
And tell yourself, 'you'll be the death of me' "
(By Seether - "Remedy")

The way I hear the song is "And tell yourself, 'you'll be the death of my engine' ".

In regards to the prep work - The best way to describe what this project is, is to describe what is it not about. It is not about looking for quick, cheap horsepower. It is not about seeing how much nitrous the TL can withstand. My goal is to design and implement the safest nitrous system that I see fit to last with long-term daily usage. It is meant as a mod that will last for the next 100,000 miles with daily usage of the nitrous. My project is intended to be a Max Reliability Effort, *not* a Max HP Effort. I rather have something that I can beat on day after day, spraying once or twice *daily* instead of something that will grenade after a few months.

For example, there are several other safety aspects of my project too. Such as a custom designed burst panel for the intake manifold.

Many s/c guys are putting down 350 whp. If I was to allow the nitrous to make the same overall whp, the TL Diet would make this equivalent to having 465 whp...... oh my god, what a monster that would be. As I was designing my system, setting design parameters, I easily decided that 100 shot would be the designed maximum. With my current n/a mods, I estimate I am at 250 whp actual or 330 whp "tl diet" equivalent. So, it was easy to settle on the 100 shot maximum. If I am ever comfortable to creep up to this 100 shot max, it would put me at 465 whp "tl diet" equivalent.

This project was officially started on March 13, 2010. I have purchased most of the components already. Up to this point in time, the bulk of my time was spent researching and designing the system. When I say researching, please don't think that I am a newbie to nitrous.

Nitrous is not a new topic to me. Twenty-three years ago, I had used nitrous extensively. I would line-up (aka, drag race) against "trailered" race cars and win while I was spraying a 175-HP shot. My hotrodded Z28 IROC Camaro was a 13.1 second car (track verified) with *no* juice. Nitrous was my specialty. while I was in college, I even wrote a college research paper on the automotive power augmentation usage of nitrous oxide. Nitrous was my life, nitrous was my love.

I had used a NOS(Holley) brand plate system back in those days. The system had a 225 shot maximum. The highest that I ever used was 175 shot..

Back in those days (23 years ago), we did not have the Internet. I did however have an annual subscription to every hot-rodding magazine that there was - SuperChevy, HotRod, Popular HotRodding, CarCraft, and probably one or two more that I have now forgotten. Back then, the NOS brand was the only mainstream nitrous company. And, that is the brand that I used back then. Twenty three years ago, we (the common street racers) did not have things like nitrous purge, bottle warmers, EGT gauges, wideband gauges, engine knock monitors, mother bottles, dedicated fuel systems for the supplementary fuel, exotic fuels such as methanol. I am fifty years old. I plan to enjoy these modern things before my time runs out.

With the money that I spent to do my Nitrous/Meth Injection (NMI), I have come close to the price of the CT Supercharger. I know that many readers will be asking "why didn't you just get the s/c?" The problem with that question is that the question implies that the s/c is better than the NMI. I value nitrous more than supercharging. I love nitrous. I would had done the NMI versus the s/c even if the s/c was half the price of the NMI.

I hate cars

I've got a ton of confidence this will be very reliable and probably the quickest TL around. The nice thing (as I'm sure you know) is that you're going to get the corresponding torque increase, probably the same as the hp.

I barely remember the days "before the internet". I had gone through 3 engines and finally figured it out right before a site popped up in '98 called turbobuick.com (the one before the big crash in '02). If only that site had been around a few years earlier it would've saved me a lot of money on the learning curve and what knock does to engines. I figured out how to turn the boost up on my own with a Bic pen inline with one of the vacuum lines with pin holes poked in it until the boost was where I wanted it to be lol. Talk about ghetto and if I hadn't figured it out, I would've been on the original engine for a lot of years.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing this in action. Being the oil nerd that I am, I have to ask, are you taking any precautions with a thicker oil for the newfound torque or shorter change intervals due to the methanol?

Inaccurate

Thanks for sharing the story of your internet (or the lack of internet) experience. Thanks for the vote of confidence too.

I will be switching from my current RedLine 0W20 to either the RedLine 0W30 or 5W30. I will also thicken-up my ATF too via more Racing fluid than Lightweight fluid.

Until you mentioned it, I had not been worried about the methanol diluting the oil. Do you feel that this will be an issue? For the little bit that finds it's way to the oil (blow-by), Shouldn't the methanol evaporate away ?

I hate cars

I haven't been over to turbobuick.com in a long time but there's probably some good info over there since nearly every member is running meth.

In my head, I was thinking of a methanol engine that runs solely on methanol instead of methanol injection when I posted that. It will show up in the oil, no doubt about that. However, you have a pretty long drive so I doubt it will have a chance to become a problem. It's been so long since I've changed the oil or driven the car but I do remember that methanol reacts or can react with the oil or certain oils (is this vague enough lol) and that it's good to do the old standard of 3,000 miles. Basically, I remember researching it and deciding on the 3K oil change but it's been so long I can't remember why... Of course, it's not a bad idea to make sure the car goes on a fairly long drive after a night on the bottle but that's my OCD talking.


Redline 5w-30 would be my choice. I think your car is going to be so fast, there's no need to try and worry about a hp or so lost to friction and pumping losses. The 5w-30 will look like a good 40wt to the bearings and ringpack, but with better flow.

The 3.8 HTHS of the 5w-30 is considerably higher than the 0w-30 and I consider it the minimum requirement for nitrous. I believe Porsche specifies either 3.6 or 3.8 as the minimum requirement for most of their line which explains why it's usually a 40wt. Just a few points starts to make a major reduction in wear when you start really loading the engine down.

One thing to think about (just trying to throw everything out there I can think of, please don't take it the wrong way), while you may only squeeze a 100shot and lets say you could get 125hp, maybe a little more due to the meth, and a corresponding increase in torque. You may still be getting a 150% increase in torque in certain parts of the tach depending on how low you plan to squeeze. The oil wedge in a journal bearing is not as effective at 4,000rpm as it is at 6,800rpm at keeping parts separated from applied torque.

Here I go again.... There's an awesome article by GM testing different HTHS on the 3.8L. Rod and main bearings and rings were weighed on 2 different engines befoe hand. Then they were put on the dyno both on the same program. One had the minimum HTHS for a 20wt, 2.6, and one had a 3.6 or somewhere around that. After they completed the cycle, they were torn down and wear items were re-weighed. The higher HTHS engine had 1/5 the mass missing as the lower HTHS. It really is more important than 100C viscosity for guaging wear protection.

Also, the 40C vis (which I'm sure is close to a summer starting temp where we live) of the 30wt is 57 vs 62 for the 5w-30. Not really enough to worry about. Of course, these number will spread out much more as temps drop.

One intersting thing I remember reading from Paul on here and I really trust his figures and judgement.... The J32s he's put an oil guage on with a 20wt have had around 7psi hot idle pressure. I could only imagine what that would be if you ran it hard for a few consecutive runs.

I looked for changes in the books and asked the dealer's lead mechanic (and Honda enthusiast) and there were no changes made to the J32 when it went from specifying a 10w-30 and 5w-30 to a 5w-20. All clearances are the same and there is no high volume oil pump like Ford did for the light stuff. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but coupled with the fact that they say a 15w-40 is ok in other countries, I truly believe CAFE is the driving force behind NA's switch to light weight oils. Of course, some Japanese Hondas are now spec'ing a 0w-10 but of course, their engines are replaced much, much sooner than ours.

I'm done...for now. This is what happens when I'm stuck in the house all night....

Inaccurate

I was leaning toward the 5W30 too for the same reason. I said either 0W30 or 5W30 because I had not yet compared specs. So, thanks for the info. I will be doing the 5W30.

I am very familiar with the concept of hydrodynamic wedge. I studied Smokey Yunick’s book for years. Not just reading it, It was my reference source. Always close at hand. That and Grumpy’s book. I forgot Grumpy’s real name. Also studied that famous book from the 1920’s or something old like that. It is the only book like it. Very insightful book for it’s time. Do you know the old book that I am talking about ? If not, tell me and I will Google and find it. My college library had an original copy of it. I bet that thing is very valuable to a collector.

I am also very familiar with the high torque at low RPM’s from the nitrous. This is due to the nitrous being injected at a constant rate, but the dwell time of the intake stroke varies with RPM. Slow RPM’s mean more time for the cylinder to ingest more nitrous charge.

This was one of the reason that I decided to do the nitrous on my car. One of my car’s weaknesses is a failure to get a deep downshift sometimes. There have been times that my opponent had gotten a lucky break because my trans did not downshift. I still always beat them once I get back into my powerband, but it is a weakness that will cause me to loss a race someday. Drag racing is all about preparing your machine and eliminating your weaknesses.

So, I am using the nitrous to cover-up that weakness. With the nitrous, there is no “powerband”. A 50 shot is 50 hp now, regardless of the RPM. To make hp at lower rpm means more torque. And, more torque means more broken parts.

I never talk about it on the forum, but I have a lot of drag racing knowledge. It was my whole life when I was in my 20’s and earlier 30’s. I even had a subscription to National Dragster. I studied drag racing like the science that it is. I respect drag racing for the art that it is. I have extensive knowledge of engine building, with emphasis on the small block chevy. Extensive knowledge of racing torque converters and TH350 and PowerGlides. I just don’t expose my knowledge on the forum because I have no interest in proving myself to anyone when they inevitability will challenge me.

Inaccurate

Above - Here is a pic of my 1985 IROC-Z. I purchased it new in 1985.






Above - The next day after going the track.







Above - Ready for heading-out to the illegal street racing much later that night. Full racing slicks (no tread grooves) on the rear.







Above - Pic on my new TH400 B&M Racing trans. Purchased thru SuperShops.



Above - Pic of the motor torn-down for some upgrades. Please note the Pete Jackson Gear Drive in place of a cam chain. Cam was a Crane Oval Track cam, solid lifter, 252* at 0.050" with a 106* lobe seperation angle. Installed by me and degreed with 2* advance.

I hate cars

Very nice. I've always had a soft spot for those cars. So if that was an auto, you had the 5.7, right, or were they all automatic and 5.7L? I remember in the GTAs you got the 5.0 in front of the manual and 5.7 in front of the auto but I can't remember if it's the same with the IROC. Believe it or not, the front swaybar is a direct fit and I have one on my GN but it gets one side disconnected at the track. Even the lower control arms, springs, and rear lower control arms are interchangable.

I miss the days where you actually saw cars running around with slicks on from time to time. Now days people look at me funny like I can't afford matching rims lol.

Super Shops, wow, that brings back memories. We had an outlet in town until '98 or '99 and I haven't heard anything since. I used to get my drag radials there because they had my size in stock. I used to always find a cocky Mustang owner in there, it was like a Mustang club, and with one of my derogatory Mustang license plates I always got a run when leaving.

That looks like one of the "noisy" cam drives, did it whine pretty good? Also, what kind of rockers are those?

You're so right about getting rid of the car's weaknesses. It sure beats making excuses. I too had the problem of getting caught "in between gears" as we called it. What really sucked was it hurt spool too. In the old days, a 3,600rpm convertor fixed that issue but I'll never run one of those again in a street car. I'm actually having a TH400 built right now before they're all gone. I spent way too much money on a 200-4R and convertor that would live behind my engine and it still needs a rebuild every 2 years. Now that it's a toy I wouldn't mind losing the OD as much.

Thanks for sharing, it brings back so many good memories! What happened to the IROC?

Inaccurate

The cam gear drive did have a subtle whine. Nothing terribly loud. Sounded sort of like an alternator with a slight bad bearing.

Rockers were Crane Roller rockers (needle bearing).

I had a 10” B&M 3500 stall converter in the Iroc. Why did you not like your 3600 stall on the street ? I loved mine.

Glad to hear you getting a TH400. They are legendary for being indestructible.

What happen to the Iroc? Lol.

My wife, girlfriend at the time, said that I had to get rid of the Iroc before we got married. So, I sold it to a fellow hotrodder. No big deal. Like I said, drag racing was my whole life, and I had 6 years of fun with my Iroc up to that time. I was ready for a life style change.


In a day or two, I hope to start a thread showing more pics. I will so you my motorcycle that I had. It was a Suzuki GS1100. In stock form, the magazines had it at 11.2 seconds in the 1/4 mile. It was the quickest bike on the market at the time.

Inaccurate

I will beginn to record my intake temps (IAT Sensor) this week.

These OBD scanners and OBD Data Loggers will easily read these and many more -

02 Sensor
Engine Coolant Temp
Ignition timing
Battery Voltage
Distance Traveled
Idle Time
Throttle Position
EGR Duty Cycle
Intake Air Temp
Fuel Pressure
Engine RPM
Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure
Vehicle Speed

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Ok, all this talk of data logging prompted me to dust off my PC based data logger/ scan tool and take some readings today. I also took some temp readings from the top intake pipe going into the TB, the turbo both exhaust side and intake side and the intake. ( area that says 3.2 very top of engine). I am pre UCM since I can't get the damm wipers off yet so the hope was to compare the temp pre and post UCM. Top of engine: 140 degrees, intake tube: 123, turbo exhaust side:529, intake side: 123.

The real fun facts are from the data log session. I had been messing with the computer siting in the garage just after returning from lunch for about 10 min setting up the computer so the intake air temps started at 140 degrees, timming 8.5-10 at idle. I jumped on the freeway and drove it for 10 mins and came home to find the data log didn't save. I set the computer to gauge setting as well as data Log so I was able to watch the IAT's drop from 140 to 100 flat, now the air temp in San Jose today at time of testing was 70-71, so I was running 30 degrees above ambent after the freeway romp / cool down and 70 from the start. Coolant got as high as 208 but would stay around 194 and slowly go up then down. The logger I'm using is a very cheap ( $80) logger/ scan tool I bought mostly to check engine codes, so the data logging software is not the best hence the lost data today. I also pulled up the timming gauge and I can confirm the car does some crazy stuff with the timming like zero out when off the gas and peg 38+ timming under light throttle. Boost seem to be 12-14 degree range, but hard to say since when in boost it is best to look out the windshield not down at the computer.
I will try to get a good data session and post some results, maybe some chemicaly enhanced IAT results.

Inaccurate

Whoop ! Thanks Hi speed.

I am looking forward to comparing data.

I got a good laugh from the "when in boost it is best to look out the windshield not down at the computer." Very True. I can relate.

I hate cars

Very good info! Wait till you try it with the meth, the IAT should go below ambient. Do you have a CAI? Your manifold id the same as mine even with your turbo. One reason I didn't do a CAI on my turbo car is at wide open it pulled enough air into the engine bay that the pre-turbo temps went down to ambient from 50F higher than ambient. Any chance of testing to see if the TL shares this trait?

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I am not 100% sure what your asking, so how would I test to see.
I am somewhat ashamed to say I am not running a air filter at the moment since I am not sure of how i'm going plumb the filter.

Meth wise I got alittle scared with all the talk of inhalation risks with running it straight. I am considering running 50/50, but still not decided. Is it worth it to run a meth kit from Alkycontrol if I am running a water meth mix for twice the price of an AEM or Snow kit.

pohljm

no air filter? how much was that turbo? wow

Inaccurate

Click pic to see larger size.





Above is the data logging for the IAT (Intake Air Temp Sensor) from this morning.

As the data logging begins, the is engine is cold. The weather temp was 76* F. All weather temps are via the MID, which has proven to be extremely accurate in my car. I have my MID temp sensor relocated closer to the fresh air duct than the oem position.








The first thing that I questioned when I starting logging any IAT readings is if the IAT sensor is accurate. Over night, I left my hood open in the garage. This morning, I used my infrared gun to take the temp of the manifold surrounding the IAT sensor. The infrared temp reading was 89.5* F. Upon starting the engine and the logging session, the ecu reported that the IAT was 90* F. So, the IAT sensor appears to be accurate.

Although the logging session shows an initial IAT temp of 90* F and the weather temp was 76* F, this is accurate. The 90* is from the residual heat in the engine from yesterday evening commute home.

The ambient temperature abruptly jumps from 76* F to 82* F. This is not a gradual warming up. I was surprised by this too. The 76* F is on a country road surrounded by open grass fields. The 82* F is on a very huge freeway surrounded with traffic and city buildings.

As this data logging reveals, my IAT sensor reads approximately 9* F higher than ambient while moving.

Showing math work -
85* - 76* = 9*
91* - 82* = 9*


Click pic to see larger size.





Above is the data logging for the IAT (Intake Air Temp Sensor) from yesterday evening.

My morning commute is much different than the evening commute. By looking at just the data logging characteristics, it is hard to believe that the two are the same route,. Although my morning commute is just the reverse direction of my evening commute, the two are worlds apart. My morning commute has little traffic and many opportunities to speed as fast as I want. The evening commute is *jammed* with massive traffic with extremely few places to slightly speed.

Yesterday's evening commute was exceptionally bad. I was in stop-n-go traffic for one hour. Speed ranged from approximately 4 mph to 12 mph...... for a whole hour. During this time of stop-n-go, the IAT sensor registered mainly between 109* F to 115*F. This is 24* F and 30* F higher than ambient, respectively.

Once my speed reached 60 mph, the IAT dropped to 93*, which is 8* F higher than ambient.. I estimate that if I had been able to hit 60 mph immediately after the stop-n-go, that the IAT temp would had dropped from 115* to 93* within 5 or 6 minutes.

Inaccurate

Here is data logging for the oem O2 sensors. This was very enlightening to me. I have read on our forum and other forums that oem O2 sensors were only narrow-band and not suitable for tuning purposes because the oem O2 sensor could not read across the full AFR spectrum. Not true according to what I see thus far.

I compared the oem O2 sensor reading against my Innovate LC-1 Wideband. The richest AFR that I encounter during my logging session was 13.5. The oem AFR readings matched perfectly to the Innovate Wideband readings, even down into the 13.5 range.

But, the "jury is still out" until I can verify the oem AFR reading in much richer areas, such as down into the low 11's.

Below is a pic showing how closely Bank 1 and Bank 2 have the same AFR.

I hate cars

I'm fairly sure the TL uses wideband 02s as the primary sensors and I also think it stays in closed loop during WOT.

As I understand it, the reasoning for running the more expensive widebands is to have complete fuel control from a few seconds after cold startup all the way through wide open. I *think* but not 100% positive that to get the ULEV status it has to be in closed loop operation 10 seconds after cold start.

phee

iTrader: (5)

innac: have you considered a hardware hi/lo/band pass for the knock sensor? with this you could fine tune the exact frequencies that reach the ecu. just a thought from an audio engineer.