neuronbob

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2009/01...re-future.html

If true: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

But of course, we don't know that for sure, so for now my official opinion is...meh.

Given that we've been fed in the past that the next RL may be RWD and V8 (itself a rumor), this is really, really, REALLY bad news if true.

EDIT: Here's the actual article from Autocar (UK): http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...aspx?AR=236796

CL6

Seems likely to me. Motivation even during the best of times towards adding a V8 was tepid and with sales down such as they are I see little incentive for the V8 foot draggers to greenlight such an engine.

1stRL

Oil prices are bound to go up. I believe this is a smart move for Honda. However I do not think the RL will be affected by this.

ssim3

If Honda wants to make the RL relevant they will need to come out with a DI V6 and a new transmisson on a RWD platform with optional SHAWD. Then they can compete with the big dogs.

Mike_TX

That's not only a shame (if it's true), but it's another nail in Acura's coffin.

Dropping the planned V-8 at a time when the competition all have them, and engine technology has made them as efficient as V-6's, is just plain short-sighted and inane. All I can say is keep on trying to convince high-end buyers that your 6-cylinder is adequate, Acura, and watch them walk out the door and go down the street to Lexus, Infiniti, M-B, BMW and others.

And your SH-AWD is clever and trick, but people in large parts of the country just don't care about it. So, continuing to insist on shoving it under every car in the Acura lineup is a costly strategic error.

When will carmakers learn they cannot dictate product ... the customer dictates what will sell. Soichiro Honda knew and understood that, but his successors obviously don't.

.
.

CL6

I think a V8 would be "nice" but almost all E Classes are V6s not V8s and the E Class has sold 1.5 million in the current bodystyle so how many V8 RLs would be sold?

I know when I was at Acura the Texas dealers were hoping for a 2WD version of the MDX. I don't know if Acura is shoving that down consumer's throats. I think that's a little strong. As we are constantly reminded here, Audi seems to be doing ok and their sedans are AWD.

I don't know what specifically Soichiro Honda "knew" that the new guy doesn't. Any examples? I mean, Lexus/BMW/MB are all RWD and Mr. Honda built FWD cars for Acura so...

Mike_TX

People are always citing the proportion of V-8 to V-6 cars sold in certain brands as evidence Acura is okay with only V-6's. But I would turn your question around and ask why has M-B sold 1.5 million E-classes and Acura hasn't sold a FRACTION of that number of RL's? Obviously there's more to the picture.

And I don't think you can compare anything that M-B does to what Acura does, since they cater to a somewhat different type of buyer. If Acura wants to be in that crowd, though, it has to have something more than it has ... wouldn't you agree, especially as a former Acura salesperson?

As for the Texas dealers wanting RWD MDX's, I don't doubt it! You're agreeing with me that SH-AWD isn't universally wanted by the public. And if I recall correctly, Acura has pretty much indicated they intend to eventually underpin all models with SH-AWD - sort of as their signature feature.

Honda's history is full of examples of it's founder's excellent sales savvy - from his early motorcycles (the Dream, CB350, CB750 Four) to the Civic CVCC's of the 70's and the smashingly successful Accord sold all over the world. It seems to me current management doesn't have the same foresight and market insight the founder did ... they soldier on in safe markets with Hionda, taking no risks, and IMO they've missed an opportunity with the Acura brand to build a truly premium nameplate.

I might add that if you were so sure Acura was a winning formula, you probably wouldn't have gone over to M-B ...

.
.

CL6

I don't think the V6 prevents Acura as being as successful with the RL as MB is with the E (not to mention all the taxi cab E sales in Europe). My point is that the E550 sells very few units (we have about 85 V6s and only 6 V8s).

Acura needs more models that are not like Hondas. You can do this with a variety of powertrains.

I don't think AWD is being shoved down people's throats. There are enough kinds of people out there to buy RWD/FWD/AWD cars. I do think Acura should sell RWD/AWD vehicles but Mr. Honda wanted them to make FWD cars so they are trying to do the VW/Audi thing and make a FWD platform more upscale by moving it to AWD. If you look at the last-gen Legend Type 2 that car was super expensive and only FWD...

I'd say that Honda in the late-90s to mid-00s produced some uninteresting designs like the Civic, Accord, CL, etc. but they have some very solid cars now. I think where Mr. Honda's leadership is missed is with the performance crowd.

I left selling Acuras because they only had 5 models and I wasn't willing to bet my income on what the TL would look like (good thing, too).

But in reference to your original post... I'm not sure anything is being shoved down people's throats in reference to AWD or that Mr. Honda didn't do some shoving himself (FWD platform comes to mind).

I do think that a RWD/AWD platform would offer more choices though so I do agree with you on this point.

lumpulus

Ho hum, I won't miss RWD or a V8....I call it forward thinking.

Now if they would only come out with an RSX with SH-AWD and the S2000 engine with forced induction.

Mike_TX

Let me just point out that your repeated references to "shoving AWD down people's throats" are YOUR words, not mine, so please stop saying I said that.

I stated that "... continuing to insist on shoving it (SH-AWD) under every car in the Acura lineup is a costly strategic error."

Just for clarification.

And, BTW - my interest lies in the potential for an RL to be my next car in 2 years when my Lexus lease is up. That potential might have just diminished with Bob's news story.

Because regardless what M-B does (and I might add, that's in your part of the country, which I seem to recall is the Republic of California, also known as Greenie Land), lots of us out here want a V-8. Especially since my 380hp V-8 gets 10% better mileage than my 290hp V-6 '06 RL did!

.
.

CL6

Some people may be turned away from a car because a V8 is not offered but others will be turned on to it as well. In the end, I think overall there is a net gain than a net loss. After all, you can't capture every sale. Nationwide anyway the big V8 sedans don't move in large numbers so I'm not sure Acura is missing that much at least as long as they have a limited line-up. If Honda is going to invest X dollars in a new RL I think they'd see a much larger sales increase taking the money they would have spent on a V8 and putting it into other features.

I think many people are drawn to Acura because they do have a different mentality than many of the other brands do. Whether this will allow them to move into Tier 1 or not is another story.

Despite where I live my understanding is that nationwide the percentage of E550s sold to E350s is pretty small overall.

Again, Mr. Honda's death did leave a big void at the company but he didn't do everything right either and the current guy seems to have a pretty good mentality about running the company.

Honda probably did the math and figured moving FWD to AWD (like Audi has done) proved to have more positives than negatives. Some people don't like AWD because of the extra gas but I'd bet that plenty more do like it for the handling and traction benefits so I'm sure they do fine.

neuronbob

Oooo, a spirited debate. And welcome back, Mike.

The point that's been brought up repeatedly in our debates is that RWD and V8 make a halo sedan, though we all know most people buy the V6 versions. A way for Acura to grow in size is to have options like this. I'd be one of those who bought a V8, though, and honestly was looking forward to upgrading. I guess I'd be happy with a powerful, DI V6 engine with a beautiful wrapper around it, but I doubt Honda's working on that right now.

We'll see what happens in a couple of years. The economy should have picked up by then.

TSX69

I have read that some people deem this as a precursor as to the death of the RL but I highly doubt that. Acura is not going to reduce itself to 2 entry level mid-sedans. I would imagine that the main thing they can do to differentiate it from the TL is make it larger. As for engines, I hope that they @ least add a turbo to help close the gap in power w/ the competitors.

I want to preface my next question by saying I do not know much about the mechanics of cars so humor me here: why have they not built more cars off the RWD platform of the NSX & S2000 like they do the Accord? I realize that some tweaks will probably have to be made but I would think that it would be quicker & cheaper than creating a brand new one. Even if this is not possible, I hope that they @ least make an Acura-fied S2000 to satisfy enthusiasts.

jjtags

I don't think the news of the V-8 not being pursued is as bad news as many would believe. They are doing what they think will be better for their brand and the survival of their brand.

I agree that they should be focused on what people really want and need also though. Maybe if they want to stick to the V-6, the need to find a way to give it more power BUT increase the mileage. Maybe a better more efficient setup, hybrid option or even a new 6 or 7 speed transmission.

They also need to improve their marketing for the Acura brand since many people don't know what a great value the Acura's are compared to the premium priced German brands.

Just my 2 cents.

CL6

I think the NSX/S2000 platform is pretty limiting in terms of size and what is can support as far as bodies whereas the Accord chassis can serve for many different types of cars. Honda builds really great FWD cars and maybe this led them to stay with what they know. Also, FWD is cheaper to build than RWD or AWD.

dwboston

I've said this before but I don't think the lack of a RWD/V8 sedan will hurt Acura in the long run...as long as the designs and features are market leaders. Honda has a niche and, especially now, there is a place for well-built, technologically advanced, fuel-efficient cars in the marketplace. AWD will always be a selling point in the northeast. I can't believe what a crappy job Acura has done positioning SH-AWD. Everyone who drives it loves it, but Acura can't seem to explain the benefits.

The one thing I don't get about Honda/Acura right now is the attitude towards hybrids. I realize that there is a lot of hype in regards to the benefits of hybrids, but they missed the boat both in the way they used the hybrid setup in the Accord (used it to augment horsepower rather than increase MPG), then in killing it altogether. The FCX Clarity looks great, but hydrogen is likely to be a non-starter for a while due to a lack of clean sources for hydrogen and the lack of hydrogen fueling infrastructure. Couple the indifference toward hybrids with the somewhat fuel inefficient V6's in the RL and TL (and SOHC ones at that), and it just leaves me scratching my head.

470hpGS400

iTrader: (1)

Everyone has an opinion and everyone believes they know better than the manufactures when it comes to this type of stuff. Myself included of course.

I could go all day and talk about the bloated Camry LS460 or IS'ish GS and blah blah blah. I strayed from Lexus to the RL because one, I tired of the Lexus offerings (still own two though) and simply the RL stands out, has great styling, don't see one everyday like some boring Lexus or Benz which all look alike ( minus a couple of exceptions), and the AWD is fantastic. Now, is it better than a Lexus counterpart? That would be another topic as I am still a Lexus fan to a degree. Every car in their lineup is great so please no ,"why are you bashing Lexus" comments.

Could Acura have advertised the AWD a bit better? I suppose. More advertising exposure? Same is said about the GS over on CL.

Would a V8 help sales? It would probably help the image though we all know the 6 cylinder variant of any car outsells the V8 model exponentially. Not even close.

Beyond speculation nobody knows for sure when Acura was going to release the V8 RL and not many are sure when the economy will turn around. But, for me, I would take a well tuned V8 over a 6 cylinder given the choice. Even my SUV has more torque and feels snappier than my RL does though in a straight line speed contest the RL will take it after 2 blocks.

Guess the summary of my rambling is that the economy will turn around regardless of who is in the White House, Senate,etc as it always has in the past and Acura should ensure that they are prepared for the increase in sales and market place positioning with a viable power train alternative.
At the same time, I could not even begin to count how many people have commented on the power of the SIX cylinder in the GS400, SC430, etc.. So much for powertrain image.

Roy Cya

Dude,

you hit the nail on the head!! Im also for a V8 or some sort of non-NA V6 but, Im the exception. I was the one driving the 7-series with all the trimmings to make it unique yet not over "styled" and every one had something to say about it. I think a lot of it is perception for the non enthusiast like the folks that think the 400 is just a number, not related to the engine or displacement, etc, etc. For most of us on the net and these forums its more than just that - its the details, the bang for the buck factor, the tweakability of the car, lines, etc. Will Honda/Acura cater to us probably not but will to those with the "wrong" perceptions and win...

Do you guys get what I am trying to say??? I sort of do!!!

Later,

CL6

How is the RL and the TL 'inefficient'? Again...

RL... 18 mpg combined... E350 AWD... 18mpg combined... BMW 5 AWD... 20 combined... GS350 AWD... 20mpg combined... SAAB 9-3 AWD...18 combined... A6 AWD... 18 mpg combined... A4 AWD... 20 mpg combined... TL AWD... 20 combined...

The data does not support your conclusion!

slick230

A V8 SH-AWD RL would make for a really nice car regardless of the MPG, I personally think that my 05 RL w/ 35k on it is way to slow off the line due mostly to its size and weight.

If Honda/Acura wanted to be really cool they would include an option that allows the driver to choose between SH-AWD, FWD, or RWD with a push of a button. I am no mechanical engineer but I don't see why this would be a problem.

On a side note, CL6, I wanna 2007 MB SLK55 AMG, you got the hook up? I had a SLK230 (my office mate called it the slick230 hence my username). Anyway, I had to trade it in when my daughter was born and I have been missing it ever since.

NIKKG

The only reason MB and BMW sell better is because the name is more of a status symbol and the rap stars have them in videos. Other than that, MB and BMW are unreliable junk that needs frequent servicing for repairs. I know this because my cousins have MB’s and they are full of problems. Its all about the name and prestige.

RL06tech

Just a sign of the times, and exactly the righ thing to do.

neuronbob

Actually, the gearing makes a huge difference. Even if nothing else changed on the RL, a six-speed tranny would make a significant difference in off-the-line acceleration.

mondo540

Have to +1 this commentary...

I feel dismayed by what Honda is doing with the Acura brand. A V8 can loaf at 1800-2K rpm at freeway speeds and get good mileage. Gear it right and for goodness sakes, has Honda heard that 6 and 7 spds are out now?...Lexus has 8 in some of their cars. Owners of IS-F's are getting 20+ all around mpg with 400+ HP v8's (with 8 speeds) Where is Honda these days? back in the mid 90's? They have cool tech w/ 5 speed auto trannys...where is all that F1 technology?

CL6

Unfortunately, the facts do not back up your assertions:

http://www.emercedesbenz.com/Jun08/0...ity_Study.html

Around the time of the Chrysler-Daimler merger quality slipped due to problems with vendors but that is in the past...

BMW and to some extent Mercedes make leasing very affordable, something Acura does not do but Honda does through lower money factors, pull forward programs, etc... BMW is paying a heavy price for this because they badly inflate their residuals, something MB doesn't really do.

"Prestige" is always an important factor in anything people buy whether it be cars, shoes, or clothing.

The SLK55 is a fast car. We get them in sometimes. PM me if interested.

I think Acura could gain some "prestige" if they produced an ultra-high performance vehicle again, something that grabbed people's attention. Too bad the NSX was canceled.

acuda

Sorry, but the facts don't back YOUR point to the contrary. I would direct any reader to any recent edition of Consumer Reports auto reliability surveys where any comparison of the Acura line with the MB line reveals sharp differences with MB still --meaning recent models--low on the reliability scores when compared with Acura and many, many other brands.

Unfortunately it was not simply the fault of "vendors" and not just in the past.

CL6

I'm glad you work for Mercedes-Benz like I do and know about the issues with the vendors and have had talks with the corporate representatives like I have so you know enough to make that statement. You must have spoken with different executives than I did.

Again, I cite JD Power:

In conducting the annual study, market researchers investigate the satisfaction of American customers with new vehicle purchases within the first 90 days, and evaluate the quality of both the concept and execution of the vehicle. Overall, Mercedes-Benz moved up one place against last year from fifth to fourth, and is the only vehicle brand with three models (CLK, E and S-Class) within the top ten passenger vehicles.

This year saw the E-Class and the CLK each receive gold J.D. Power Awards. According to the U.S. study, these models are the highest quality vehicles in their market segments. Furthermore, Mercedes’ Sindelfingen plant receives the Platinum Award, making it the assembly facility with the best delivered quality worldwide.

Also:

E-Class and C-Class score well in satisfaction poll
June 27th, 2008
The latest reliability poll from Which? magazine revealed that the Mercedes-Benz E-Class was the best luxury car on the market.

According to the poll, 89 per cent of customers owning an E-Class were pleased with the model and the brand.
Owners of the Mercedes-Benz C-Class were particularly pleased with their car.

A total of 91 per cent said they were happy with the model, which is unsurprising, considering its exceptional sales record and five-star Euro NCAP safety rating for adults.
Overall, the Which? revealed that the brand has shown great improvement in sales and servicing.

The survey asks 90,000 drivers what they think of their new cars and a total of 78 per cent of Mercedes-Benz drivers said the brand was dependable.

Customers are becoming increasingly pleased with the service they are receiving from the brand and with new models and technological innovations arriving on the market, this is likely to continue.

http://benzinsider.com/2008/06/more-...-improvements/

acuda

For a car company at the level of MB to try blame rampant quality and reliability problems present in so many of its vehicles and for so long on "vendors" is most embarrassing, and doesn't wash. MB is responsible for selecting and vetting its vendors and subcontractors, and for continuously testing and monitoring the product going into their cars. If you were one of the many poor folks who, in good faith, paid beaucoups bucks for one of these vehicles and was plagued with multiple expensive post-warranty repairs at MB's legendary high service rates, being told " it was the vendors" would inflame rather than console. The only chance you guys have of winning back those that suffered such damage during the long quality drought is to take responsibility and apologize, not assign blame to a 3rd party. By the way, as quality improves are you telling your customers that "...it isn't us, all the credit goes to Bosch sensors, siemen's electronics and pilkingtin windows" ?

The JD Power data on quality in the first 90 days is nice. Consumer Reports tells more about the quality over the longer term of ownership which I believe is more relevant to most owners (and a better known, more credible source to US customers than the "Which?" magazine you cite). I just reviewed this for several models and for the E, S, M and C classes they say that reliability has improved to "Average". Again, nice to see that they are improving, but c'mon, in the case of the S class we are talking about a vehicle with a list price that starts at 90K!

neuronbob

http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=808157

Tip was sent to the TOV indicating a letter from Acura VP regarding the Tier 1 plan...that it was still on. I sure hope so.

CL6

Let me try and explain to you the facts. When the merger with Chrysler happened HQ tried to cut down on the number of vendors they used and standardize things a little bit. Right before the E Class launched the vendor that was supposed to do the climate control went out of business so they had to scramble to figure out who else to use. As a result, the module that was put in there didn't talk to the stereo and kept checking to see if there was a CD in there, which killed the battery which then caused other problems. The RL had a similar issue when it launched (current model) and the battery kept dying. This is but one example. Then you have cars like the CLK, SL, and SLK and over time issues can develop with the power tops (the same company does tops for BMW) and when these are brought in for adjustment this gets reported as a "problem" when in fact it is a highly complicated piece of machinery that requires regular adjustment. Or you have the brakes and the way the ABS and ESP works (both invented by MB) that wears the brakes out faster than most cars (particularly true on S, CL models). This is a normal function of keeping the driver safe.

So during the Chrysler/Daimler time quality slipped quite a lot because, honestly, MB bit off more than it could chew. Now that Chrysler is gone quality is going back to pre-merger highs.

When I worked at Acura I read Consumer Reports and many of the negatives they said about Acuras I did not personally find to be true so nothing is 100% in these magazines.

You also have to consider that the average MB is a very complicated piece of machinery and the more expensive the car, the more things could go wrong. In the S Class alone there are more than 200 sensors to monitor everything from the steering wheel position to the strength that the brakes are pressed not to mention the fact that many times people are brought in for service because MB figures out a better way to do something and issues Technical Service Bulletins to upgrade, repair, or replace things. This gets counted against a vehicle's repair record.

In short, I had the same view until I began working for the company and learned better how things really are.

These are the facts... if you are interested in those this should satisfy you.

dwboston

So in the MB world "issues" do not equal problems, and every issue can be explained away as a problem with a merger that happened in the late 90's (a decade ago now) or the fault of vendors.

Nice "facts".

CL6

Interesting that JD Power disagrees with you. Maybe you could work for them and "teach" them a few things..?

CL6

How else one could explain high standings before the merger and low standings after without placing any blame on the addition of Chrysler must be very skilled at writing fiction.


You could say the most recent Mercedes Benz E-Class model spearheaded Mercedes Benz’s new reputation for bad quality control, something that many international members of the automotive industry have been talking about. A pity though, as my uncle-ish taste (I drive a Perdana don’t I?) is fond of the E’s looks.
The boys at Stuttgart did an amazing rebound recentty though. After years of what some call a humiliatingly low position in the J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey, the recently redesigned Mercedes Benz E-Class has come up tops in the premium mid-sized category of the most recent IQS! The new S-Class also topped the large mid-sized sedan category, but in a tied position with the Audi A8.

“Mercedes-Benz shows dramatic improvement, particularly with its newly-redesigned S-Class, which improves 63 PP100. Overall, Mercedes-Benz improves its nameplate rank by 20 positions—the greatest rank increase of any nameplate in the study. All Mercedes-Benz models in the study improved substantially, and the breadth and speed of these improvements demonstrates the Mercedes-Benz commitment to quality,” said Neal Oddes, director of product research and analysis.
The Mercedes Benz brand itself moved up twenty places up in the rankings for overall model quality. Combined with it’s recent disposal of the bleeding Chrysler group, there’s definitely reason for Stuttgart to be patted on the back.

http://paultan.org/archives/2007/06/...uality-survey/

470hpGS400

iTrader: (1)

To be brutal, some of you guys are taking this discussion way too seriously and perhaps should spend some time on more important pursuits in life. Gheesh.

I will only point out two thing about the JD Powers 90 days initial quality.

1) I know of nobody that hopes to own a vehicle for only 90 days.

2) My Ford Fusion (see Fordfusionsucks.com) went 4-5 months with not a single problem so it would have scored well in that study and I believe it did. Past that point and until I got rid of that domestic POS (no more Fords in my life) it went into a shop 11 (READ: ELEVEN) times for unscheduled issues. A/C compressor, A/C line, radio, bumper almost coming off, brakes, suspension, transmission (yep-new trans in the first year), etc......... So much for the 90 day initial quality survey.

Chilax people, this whole discussion is about Acura and the rumor of a dropped V8.

KB1Spec

iTrader: (4)

I've just talked to my friend work at Honda HQ and the manger at Acura.
No...they are not scraping the V8 for the RL. Economy is bad so they are putting it on hold.
Same goes for the NSX. Putting it on hold. Acura will make a crossover SUV. RDX will have a non SH AWD model.

TSX69

On hold is better than canceled ... altho I am not that excited about the upcoming MSX. Altho I think that a v8 & NSX will help their image, what is a few more years?

I am glad that RWD was not mentioned by your friend. The RL could really benefit from an option to SHAWD & something tells me that FWD will not be welcomed by many.

470hpGS400

iTrader: (1)

I have no doubt that if Acura wanted to, they could produce the finest V8 and associated drivetrain. IF.