hddnav

My, my, aren't we touchy here about your choice of drive wheels. I don't quite see the Camry in the wretched light that you do. As a matter of fact, I test drove a 2013 Camry Hybrid, 2013 Accord V6 Touring, and the TL SH-AWD before purchasing my TL, so I don't disagree that the higher price tag of the TL buys higher interior quality. After my test drive, I quickly dropped the Accord V6 off my list. I liked the refinement of the Camry (to try to discount noise suppresion and road isolation as being trivial is futile and non-objective), but loathed the interior quality and design. I also had in mind good gas mileage, but I had much loftier goals than you did and was attracted to the 40MPGs of the Camry Hybrid.

Your mention of the Camry engine as being buzzy, compared to the TL, clearly shows that you drove the 4-cylinder Camry. The Hybrid 4-cylinder was whisper quiet most of the time, since the engine itself was off for much of that time. When it comes to V6 models, Toyotas have a whole lot more low-end torque than the Honda's, but not as much high-rpm performance. The handling of the higher line Camry's was soft, but safe.

In the end, my decision on the TL SH-AWD was based on my impression that the Camry still had the stigma of being a car for retirees (much older than your 38 years old), while the FWD TL didn't go far enough to differentiate itself from the Accord. If I was going to spend the money on a more "premium" car, I was going to select a model that had more distinguishing features, which was SH-AWD.

I'm glad that the FWD TL is the smart choice for you. My "smart" choice would have been the Camry Hybrid, which I did not buy. My TL SH-AWD is more the fun, but less smart, choice.

potmilkz

there are several factors that i had to work out before i made the decision to either purchase a sh-awd or a fwd..

but when it comes down to it.. do i need it and if i get it what will i do with it?

to simply answer, there is no need for it.. its not like im going to track the car..

i would love to have one but with the traffic i have here.. going to work and back with the weekends also being packed as well there is simply no need for it..

morgan1819

Nope, not touchy at all. Just wanted to point out that you putting the Camry in the same "pod" as the TL, is like me comparing the SH-AWD to a Subaru Legacy, because they are both AWD sedans. Are you good with this comparison?

Yep, you probably should have bought a Legacy. The 2015's are very quiet, and have a smoother, more 'refined' ride than the SH-AWD. Yep, two peas in a pod. Using your criteria, the SH-AWD really doesn't differentiate itself from the Legacy.

See how ridiculous you sound?

So anyway, I don't need you telling me what I felt when driving the Camry vs the TL. Two completely different vehicles.

(By the way, you state that you've driven a Camry, Accord, and a SH-AWD TL. So you've never driven a FWD TL? Nice work, admitting your making all kinds of comparisons on a car you've never driven)

I'm officially done with this dialogue...

hddnav

Good try, but no cigar. I, as a matter of fact, actually used to own a 2005 Outback XT (turbo), so I did own a Legacy, thank you very much. A nice car and not necessarily bad compared to the TL SH-AWD, except for the fact that my engine required a rebuild at 65000 miles and the brakes were completed faded and smoking when coming back from the mountains. Otherwise, I really appreciated that car for what it was.

Face it, I'm just looking at this objectively and unemotionally, which is something you're not doing.

I was writing about what "I," not you, felt about the Camry, so no need to become hostile and defensive. I have no doubt that the 4-cylinder Camry you drove does not compare to your V6 FWD TL. The reason I didn't drive a FWD TL is not because it's not a good car, but because I immediately dismissed it as being not the right fit for me. I bet your FWD TL also has the "sporty" 17" rims, right?

Why don't you just admit that you're allergic to the Camry, and any comparison between your FWD TL and the Camry sends you into shock .

wreak

The Camry doesn't even belong in this conversation...in Canada the Camry is 16k less than a base price TL so the two cars aren't even worth comparing.

morgan1819

Thank you.

morgan1819

OK, I'll bite. I do run 17's ... in the winter. With Mich X-Ice 3's.

Summer tires are 18" BBS CH-R in black with Michelin Pilot Sport 3. Is that okay?

What is your point? Seriously, where were you going there?

My previous car was a 2008 535xi. After 60,000 miles, and a LOT of wasted time at the dealership, my priorities went from sporty, more towards reliability and solid design. With both of us being in the medical field, we don't have the time or energy to spend precious down time at a car dealer.

hddnav

If the Accord can be compared to a TL, so can a Camry (or, for that matter, the Legacy). Just because a Honda enthusiast doesn't like these other cars (which is completely understandable, but is a matter of opinion) does not invalidate the comparison. This is no different than claiming that a Lexus ES350 is comparable to an Accord, which might irk a pretentious Lexus owner.

By the way, a fully loaded Camry XLE V6 is in the lower $30k range in the US, which is not so far from the $35k (MSRP) that a TL FWD goes for.

MisterZDX

Sorry, but I don't get the Camry to TL comparison. TSX to Camry...maybe. But the TL is in another class. Just my

wreak

I don't think it has anything to do with pretentiousness, if that was the case we wouldn't be on an Acura forum.

Let me ask you this, when is the last time you saw a well respected automotive magazine compare the TL and the Camry? Don't worry I'll wait...there is a reason for this, they don't sit in the same class. If you want to compare it to a non-luxury brand I'd say the Nissan Maxima is a good comparison.

ron3.7

Me neither bought my 2013 Sh Awd TL at 9,000 last year now have 20,000 car runs awsome no problems at all. Got the warranty good up to 100,000 I plan on driving this car into the ground will change the tranny fluid myself every 30,000 easy enough to do enough said peace out.

hddnav

I agree that the Maxima is probably the best comparison (both the TL and Maxima are bulky FWD 4-door sedans with some sporting pretensions). However, the sports-sedan image of the TL is primarily propagated by the halo SH-AWD. The FWD TL rides on the coat-tail of the AWD model in this regards.

Considering that most of the 4G FWD TL's I see on the street wear the smaller 17" wheels, it appears that these buyers are not aiming for sport, but more for luxury. I don't see why these luxury-minded buyers wouldn't cross-shop the FWD TL, which is a large 4-door family car, with the Camry or ES350. The two cars may target different buyers, but there's no doubt that there is significant overlap.

This obviously wouldn't be a comparison between enthusiasts, especially on Acurazine. I still maintain... why is it valid to compare a TL and Accord (we can agree on this, right?), but not the TL and Camry, considering the Accord and Camry go head-to-head in almost all ways? I certainly cross-shopped all three cars before making my decision to buy the TL, and I'm saying this as a TL SH-AWD owner.

morgan1819

Someone else made a great point ... not one single car magazine has ever compared the Camry to an Acura TL. Ever.

Looks like everyone here, and every car magazine ever, respectfully disagree with you.

You can keep trying to make a ridiculous point though ... legally, no one can stop you.

Like this:

Based on your logic, your AWD does nothing to differentiate itself from the 3.6 Subaru Legacy.

Yah, right.

hddnav

I thought you were done with the dialogue. Guess you just couldn't resist, could you?

You still haven't answered why the Accord can be compared with a TL, but not the Camry. Try answering objectively and in your own words.

By the way, I don't have any problems comparing a Legacy 3.6 with a TL SH-AWD. Nor with comparing a TL with an Infiniti G37. Nor an Accord.

Once again, good try, but no cigar.

MisterZDX

I know this wasn't directed towards me, but allow me to offer my opinion if I may. It is not uncommon for people to compare and cross-shop the top of the line Accord Touring with the TL. If someone doesn't really care about nicer leather, nicer interior materials and all wheel drive, the Accord would suit them just fine as it is loaded with Tech that does not come with the TL.

Yes people will constantly compare the Accord and the TL, why? Because they are both Honda products. Just like the TL and Accord is compared by Honda loyalist. I'm quite sure people who are loyal to the Toyota brand do the same with the Camry and ES350. But I still don't see a valid comparison between a Camry and a TL.

Edward'TLS

I'm with you.

I don't get it either.

It is true that everyone has the right to compare any sedan (from Kia all the way to Porsche) with the TL, but please do it in a sensible and meaningful way.

The econo-brand Toyota Camry is simply not in the same vehicle class as the premium-brand Acura TL.

Econo-brand : Camry, Accord, Mazda6, Altima, Sonata, etc.
Premium-brand : ES, IS, TL, 3-series, C-class, Q50, etc.

hddnav

Good, rational explanations. I see where the disagreement comes from. Let me offer my take to "how dare you compare my TL to a Camry!!!"

The overriding theme here seems to be that some emotional owners feel that the Acura is too upmarket and a driver's car to be compared to a Camry. I agree about the driver's car part; that's why I bought my SH-AWD.

However, I don't consider the TL to be all that upmarket. They don't call the 4G TL a tweener for nothing... not upmarket enough to compete with Lexus or be distinguished from the Accords and Camrys, and not quite cheap enough to be the bread-and-butter mainstream and benefit from the company's huge financial investments. I clearly saw and actually **liked** that my TL is very obviously a V6 Accord with a sports package and suspension bolted on, along with prettier plasticky trim.

If we are comparing a Lexus GS350 (which I would have bought in a heartbeat over my TL, had I been less sensible) to an Accord or Camry, I fully agree with you... the Lexus is so far ahead of both the TL, Accord or Camry that there is no sensible comparison at all.

When it comes to the 4G TL, the 2013 Accord had tons of Tech features that the Acura didn't, such as Lanewatch, LED headlights, adaptive radar cruise control, forward collision warning, etc. The 2013 Camry had the Hybrid powertrain that is quick enough, whisper quiet, and gets 40mpg. In some ways, the 4G TL not only was not ahead of, but actually lagged the Accord and Camry (2013 model years).

Another reason the comparison is valid is that the actual selling price of the 4G TL was really not that much more than the Accord or Camry. I bought my 4G brand new at a pretty big discount, probably due to the car's slow sales (MSRP $44k, I paid $38k). The Accords and Camrys I crossed shopped were in the $32k actual selling price range , so there really wasn't much of a premium to the TL.

Don't get me wrong... I love my TL SH-AWD. However, there's nothing downmarket about a gold-standard bearer for quality, like a Camry. I bet that it's the stigma of the demographics of the intended owner that bugs most Acura owners here on AZ. We're hardly comparing a TL to a Corolla here.

Edward'TLS

Please don't get emotional.

This is not about "how dare you compare my TL to a Camry" nor about "how dare you compare my ES350 to an Accord".

This is not about which sedan is superior nor about which sedan is inferior.

You get hinged on the point that "if buyers compare the TL with the Accord, why not compare the TL with the Camry", or similarly "if buyers compare the ES350 with the Camry, why not compare the ES350 with the Accord".

The answer is simple. Like MisterZDX has mentioned, the TL and the Accord are both made by Honda using the same Accord world platform, the same Honda technologies, the same Honda reliability, the similar J-series V6 engine, the similar Honda features and gadgets, etc., etc.

That's why many buyers are comparing the TL with the Accord, because the Accord is like a little brother of the TL sedan.

Until the time when the Toyota Camry starts using Honda technologies like for the TL, then it will also become appropriate to do some meaningful cross-vehicle-class comparisons.

mastercheif

wow you guys strayed 1000 miles away from the OP's question

honda accord, toyota camry, subaru legacy, acura tl, they are all reliable.

It just depends on how you drive your car. SH-AWD models will mean that the drivers *might* engage in more spirited driving AND in worse weather (Northeast/Canada vs. California) hence the more issues/complaints

GR 6 spd

Without Sh Awd, you cannot do shenanigan's like this:


This is reason enough to buy an AWD TL.

liquidneon

I'd replace 3-series with 5-series for this comparison in terms of class of vehicle (not price ovbiously). Same goes for C-class... C and 3series are comparable but are much smaller than TL.

"Need" is just silly when looking at cars of this class. Do you "Need" leather seats? sun roof? HDD? bluetooth?

Yesssss! more shenanigans!!!! Traction off I presume?

hddnav

I'll entertain you, although I agree we've become too off-topic (yes, I'm partially responsible, I admit).

Note the use of quotes in my original post.

The TL is not *just* a brother to the Accord, but *is* a rebadged Accord with new options. The Acura dealership experience is frequently about the same as one of the better Honda dealerships, much of the car's credibility actually is based on the fact that it's a rebadged Accord, and the price of the cars are in similar ranges. There is not a lot of differentiation between cars that just happen to have the same manufacturer (we are not comparing an Accord to an RLX here).

There is even less differentiation between an Accord and TL when you detune the suspension and remove the SH-AWD.

The end result is a car that is cross-shopped (not just academically compared) by buyers of both models, Acura badge or not, and not just because they have the same manufacturer. **I** certainly did not buy the Acura for the badge (what badge???), but almost purely based on the sports suspension and SH-AWD alone (can this be called merit?), not to mention the value price for such hardware.

Acura to Honda is Buick to GM and Lincoln to Ford. If one can rationally compare a Camry to Accord, one can also compare a Camry to a rebadged Accord, which is a TL, as well as to the competitors of the Accord.

LNJ

That's all fine and dandy when playing around with untouched powder!
Different story on a city road fulls of snow/slush/ice!

I like how every manufacturer tries to show how superior their AWD models are by driving on untouched powder!

lift3d_

Well, you can...it's just not as fun

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

it'll be just as fun, with the fwd.

you just wont have the same control and could possibly hit a lamp post.

GR 6 spd

The SH AWD with Blizzak's handle that combo outstandingly as well. It performs better then our Grand Cherokee quadra - drive 2 in under 6 inches of snow, slush, and ice.

morgan1819

You sound like someone who has no real idea of what adds value to a vehicle.

You dismiss things like:

- significantly higher quality interior (which alone could equal $1000's of dollars).

- much better sound deadening. not cheap, or easy to do.

- more refined steering and suspension. wider track, wider wheels, far better handling. very significant cost difference here.

- standard paddle shifters, more expensive headlamps, complete different exhaust systems, etc, etc.

Even little things like thicker, sound deadened windscreens, dual memory keys, nicer service departments, lower productions runs, add to the cost and exclusivity.

Now, if someone like you doesn't understand the differences, that's fine. You probably should buy a Camry, or Accord. Seriously.

The average price paid for a 2014 Camry was $24K. For the 2014 TL, it was $38k.

See the difference yet?

Why on earth would anyone want to pay $32k for a loaded up Camry, when there are 17 million of the cheap, buzzy 4 cylinder versions on the road, that no one can tell the difference between?


I've realized you are one of those guys just trying to somehow 'win' a discussion, and you will not be swayed by facts or reality.

Good luck with the rest of your endeavors.

saturno_v

To the OP

Get the SH-AWD without looking back...the little increase in fuel consumption is worth it and I never heard of any serious issues with the SH-AWD...

The FWD TL is a very good FWD sporty sedan, the TL SH-AWD is one of the best sport sedan in its size and engine class bar none, period. A tremendous value.


To hddnav


Comparing a Camry to an Accord is like saying that a BMW 5 Series is just a different flavor of a Crown Victoria because they are both RWD.

They drive very differently, someone may prefer the Camry for comfort but at the first curve you will immediately understand which is the more sportier car between the two.


Furthermore, the TL was not called a "tweener" car because is not a real luxury car.....that term apply because it could be considered both a competitor of the 3 Series/A4 (price wise) and the 5 Series/A6 (size wise)

hddnav

I just might and I'd be proud of doing so, but based on merit and analytical logic, not fuzzy woolly impressions, thank you very much.

Because Toyota's Hybrid engine, not the mention its impressive track record for reliability and innovation it represents, blows away anything Honda has to offer. Why would anyone pay the upper $30k for an Accord Hybrid? Same reasoning.

By the way, it doesn't bother me a bit that no one can tell the difference between a $21k cheap buzzy Camry and a $32k nicely equipped one. Does it bother you? Do you think that you've attained a certain status to impress your neighbors by buying a FWD TL?

This is an insightful comment . It's called a debate, and entertainment such as this is largely why we bother even logging into these forums, right?

morgan1819

Uh, oh. Here come the moral police.

I love it. In the same sentence, you take a shot at me for 'only' having a FWD TL, and then make an assumption about my neighbors.

My wife and I easily have the most conservative cars in our development, other than some of our neighbors kids. Even some of the kids drive hand-me-down Lexus's and BMW's.

I'm quite pleased with my car, thank you. And no, not trying to impress anyone. I enjoy driving it, and like the reliability.

I believe I already mentioned those things.

I will keep my eye out for that 'Camry vs Acura TL' shoot-out coming up in Car and Driver. Should be a good read.

Edward'TLS

Ding ! Ding ! Ding ! You hit the nail on it's head.

You've answered your own question of "why it is meaningful to compare the TL with the Accord, but not the TL with the Camry".

Like you said above, because there are so many similarities between the TL and the Accord, that buyers tend to compare the two when shopping.

However, no similarity exist between the TL and the Camry, other than both have 4 wheels and sit 5 passengers; so it is deemed meaningless to compare the econo-class Camry with the premium-class TL or to compare the econo-class Accord with the premum-class IS350/ES350.

mynameisjacob

OP, I too mulled on the very same dilemma a few years ago. I juggled the pros and cons and did all the financial assessment of owning a SH-AWD vs. FWD. I took notes, thought about it at work, compared features, made spreadsheets and shit.

I took one test drive and all that stuff went into the trash bin. I urge you to do the same. Test drive a FWD model and AWD model back to back. If you can't tell the difference, just buy the FWD.

MikeTL92

Touching up on the OPs original post, i have owned a 09 SH-awd for over two years now, purchased it with 43k and i currently have 79k, i drive the car daily both city and highway a good amount and always open up the engine and enjoy the vehicle. I can say that it is a very reliable car and I'm glad i purchased the Sh model being that I'm a big car enthusiast and it feels amazing on the road for its size.
Best of luck with your purchase, I'm sure you won't regret either decision, they are some of the best cars on the road!