George Knighton

Anybody hearing rumors of a consolidation of the Acura and Honda lines?

TacoBello

What, serious?

So Honda is killing off the Acura brand?

neuronbob

Moved to Car Talk.

TacoBello

George, I think it may just be a rumor.

Sarlacc

Isn't that what we basically have now....

thoiboi

Does this mean they'll start sending out H badges for all our cars?

kurtatx

I can't picture that happening. They should do it if they're not going to let the two companies exist separately, but they won't.

RDX10

This X100000


I think this would actually be the smartest move for Honda. The only issuing being North Americans won't spend 70K on a Honda badged RLX, then again, nobody buys them right now anyways. I actually do doubt they would do this though because they just came out with that new design language and shit.

The only way I see this happening is if sales continue to tank in the sedan department. My friend is a car salesman and he told me our most prominent Acura dealer sells VERY few cars a month (apparently he can see some sort of dealer sales thing) when I suggested he go work there when he left his last employment place.
The only cars worth moving over to the Honda branch are the RDX and MDX anyways.

kurtatx

Once Hyundai opened Genesis motors, you knew the day of consolidated Honda was past us. The fact is, people don't respect the Honda brand as upscale. While the Acura brand is not what it once was, a large portion of the buying public still thinks Acura is more expensive than Honda.

Honda simply has to do better than they have with Acura, but the best answer is to make Acura better and more expensive. That takes $$$$, but Honda has the capability of doing that.

RDX10

Didn't Honda invest $1 billion U.S into Acura a little while ago? I vaguely remember reading that somewhere on here. If that is true, I REALLY don't see that investment anywhere in their current cars.

kurtatx

I mean, we all know the answer. Acura needs to be differentiated from Honda. Acura has done nothing but make horrible commercials and design ugly cars with that money.

RDX10

Exactly. But what I think Honda should have really done was just re-invest that 1 billion into making honda better. Acura is a lost cause IMHO. Nobody that I know considers them a luxury or even premium brand anymore. Not that they "can't" do it, they simply "won't" do it properly.

projektvertx

iTrader: (2)

^This

George Knighton

In February, Acura only sold about 20,000 cars. And as you say they were mostly MDX and RDX.

George Knighton

The dealers have been pushing for a bigger separation for a long time. Maybe even their own motors, like GM just did with part of the Cadillac line.

But it sounds like maybe too late.

There would be a big push back from the dealerships. There are too many places where you have a big Acura dealer very close by a big Honda dealer, and that'd be tough to sort.

kurtatx

^^^Dedicated engines would be pretty awesome. I mean, Acura would do better if it was literally Sport Honda. Drop a twin turbo V6 in an SH-AWD Accord touring. Swap badges. <br /><br />I know it's not easy, but that's the fastest way to relevance for Acura.

TacoBello

It wouldn't even make sense to keep the MDX. Put the SH-AWD into the Pilot and kill off the MDX altogether. Honda can remain in its segment and forget about luxury.

If the CR-V had a V6 option, there'd be no need for the RDX either.

I understand the both the MDX and RDX are nicer overall vehicles compared to their Honda counterparts, but really, Honda could easily jazz up the Pilot and CR-V.... or just chalk the MDX and RDX as lost market, kill the brand, and move on.

TacoBello

Funny thing is- we, the people are asking for more, the dealerships are asking for more, and yet Honda refuses to release the choke collar off Acura. Well no wonder they're not doing well. Japan just needs to back off of Acura and realize that the US Acura developers need to do their own thing.

They let them design and build the new halo car that's being sold world wide, but they won't let them build a flagship suited to the North American market. Something doesn't add up.

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

Acura should go back to their core. i.e. Integra, Legend, NSX. Leave the rest as a Honda badge...

projektvertx

iTrader: (2)

Acura is just a slow adopter. Even Lexus, who is notoriously slow at the draw, has gone turbo on their mainstream cars now. Meanwhile, in Acura land, we just have a turbo NSX and the legacy of the RDX turbo. And we all know how the latter ended. Not implying that the NSX will be a failure, but look at how many aberrations of the car we saw before the car released... The funny thing is, with as much as I just ragged on the brand, the MDX is still on my shortlist as a replacement for the Camry...

TacoBello

I must admit, my beef with the NSX is over. It's a nice car, it's fast, it's unique (though admittedly I do find the interior a bit lacking, but hey, no car is perfect). The biggest gripe with that car was the delays and overall secrecy regarding its specs. Now that it's out, I really can't hate it. It really is able to stand up to much of its competition- and being the very first iteration, we know Acura purposely left plenty on the table to be able to turn up the boost and make even wilder trims as the car ages.

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

or kill off the Pilot and RDX... 4 banger goes up to CR-V... maybe even turbo 4 as a luxury level for the CR-V.... then step up to a v6 MDX as an Acura... they are spread too thin trying to build entry level luxury cars... which kills the market for their high end basic models... i.e. why would i buy a decked out Pilot over an MDX that is priced similarly...

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

if i ran Honda

Honda:

1. CR-Z - i4 and hybrid
2. Fit - i4 and hybrid
3. Civic - current offering is fine
4. Accord - i4 or i4 turbo (no v6)
5. HR-V & CR-V - current offering is fine (kill off Pilot)
6. Odyssey and Ridgeline - current offering is fine
7. S2000 - are you listening Honda?!?!?!!!!

Acura:

1. RSX - (Integra) rebadge Civic Type R
2. TSX/TL only one not both - (Vigor equivalent) v6 only
3. RL - (Legend equivalent) - v6 with a TT model
4. NSX - fine
5. RDX - bybye...
6. MDX - fine (since this is their cash cow)

What else am i missing?

TacoBello

Kam, Honda isn't a luxury company. there's no need for them to have a luxury SUV.

TacoBello

and as much as I'd like to agree with your list, you missed a key point- that sedans aren't selling nearly as well as crossovers and SUVs. It makes no sense to kill the RDX. Without it, the company would be struggling even more.

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

i partially agree with your comment. whilst x-overs & SUVs are hot, the RDX is not selling... whereas dealers can't keep the MDX on the lots... speak to any dealer and as the GM what their best seller is... the two i have spoke to sell +200 MDX a month... but they can't give the RDX away... their RDX numbers struggle even selling at invoice... at that size of a x-over, get a CR-V

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

i meant as an offering for their EX-L model...

TacoBello

Since when is the RDX not selling?

SamDoe1

Acura is not a global brand anyway, their markets are incredibly limited. No one is buying the Acura sedans, they are all buying MDX's and RDX's. The NSX has been sold as a halo car under the Honda badge for a long time in other markets. Only Americans are really dumb enough to pay more for what amounts to the same car just because of the badge.

if i ran Honda (I'm stealing this)

Honda:

1. CR-Z - Dead, roll into the Fit
2. Fit - i4 and hybrid
3. Civic - current offering is fine, can add ILX as top trim in conjunction with type R
4. Accord - i4 turbo, V6 is higher trim level
5. HR-V & CR-V - current offering is fine, roll RDX in as higest trim level
6. Pilot - Roll MDX into this line as a trim level with appropriate features
7. Odyssey - current offering is fine
8. Ridgeline - Make a real off road version, that's what truck buyers want even though none will actually take it off road. This is how the Tacoma sells.
9. S2000 - bring dis mofugga back.

Acura:

1. RSX - Dead
2. ILX - Dead
3. TLX - Dead
4. RLX - (Legend equivalent) - Dead (no one buys this anyway)
5. NSX - Move to Honda badge as is.
6. RDX - Dead, move to CRV as trim level
7. MDX - Dead, move to Pilot as trim level

TacoBello

I'm more in agreement with Sam, though I see absolutely no need for the ILX being the top trim of the civic. just get rid of it and downsize. The civic is doing more than fine, on it's own. The ILX isn't all that more luxurious than the civic anyway, so I see no point in keeping it. It'd be nice to see a sport version of the Accord, but I know I'm just dreaming.

kurtatx

Problem is, you're completely exiting a market that, while you often struggled to compete in with some models, you still made a profit on overall.

The MDX, RDX essentially HAVE to stay with an A badge for any business plan to be legitimate. This market severely punishes car brands that screw up the crossover segment (Cadillac) and people don't crossshop Hondas with luxury brands in the crossover segment.

TacoBello

The number of people, the size of investment, etc., likely isn't worth keeping for 2 vehicles. As mentioned, throw SH-AWD on to the Pilot and I'm sure at least some of the MDX buyers will be buying a Pilot. People want the Honda "reliability".

If they're going to keep Acura afloat, they need to move the RDX up a little bit in terms of size (which it looks like they're doing anyway), and squeeze a mini SUV in, like the CDX that china has. It's their bread and butter. Why they chose not to release it here first is beyond me.

kurtatx

I don't have the numbers, but I would guess you lose the upscale buyer if you replace the MDX with an AWD pilot.

George Knighton

It's hard to predict.

For about a decade, people wondered why the Honda Prelude and the Acura Integra were both around to compete with each other.

The answer was that the two cars together would sell more total units than if they reduced to just one car. The two cars were unique enough to attract more buyers overall, because of the differences between them.

Nowadays, though, I swear it seems to me that making money is not Honda's primary goal.

George Knighton

There's a big difference between the way you're treated at an Acura dealer vs a Honda dealer.

That applies to the sales force and the service team, both.

RDX10

Is it crazy to think Acura should drop it's sedan's and become an SUV only company? Bring in the CDX and make a couple coup-UV's. The MDX is literally keeping the company afloat. But I personally think it's all on reputation of reliability. For 70K I would pick up a TON of other much nicer crossovers.

SamDoe1

Agreed but only in the US market because the majority of car buyers are idiots. Acura isn't global and that's because other markets aren't dumb enough to pay a badge tax on cars that are more or less the same. Lexus, on the other hand, is a largely global brand because they are paying for actual benefits over a Toyota. I think we can all agree that the Accord Touring is a better value and overall buy than a TLX V6 Advance. I also think we can all agree that a Lexus IS is a better value and buy than a top end Toyota Corolla (I think that's the closest size comparison?).

At the end of the day, taking the Pilot up market with more trim levels and dropping the badge tax to keep the price lower would probably pay off in the short and long term.

If they are going to make Acura relevant, they need to move the entirety of the brand far higher up market than it is now. There's a reason that Lexus kills them in sales every year and that's because they are better cars and are actually very obviously WORTH the money over a Toyota. There's an entire ocean of gap between a Camry and a Lexus ES. On top of that, all of the Lexus models ride on their own platform and are not just Toyotas with some better features. On the flip side, the ILX is basically a Civic with a marginally better interior and a far higher price tag. The TLX is basically an Accord with a marginally better interior and a far higher price tag. Even the RDX and MDX aren't immune from this as they very closely resemble their CRV and Pilot (respectively) roots.

Long story short, they need to drastically differentiate themselves from Honda if they want to succeed. As it stands right now, they are basically trim levels with a badge tax. The only thing they had going for them were the sweet headlights but now Hondas have even that.

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

so the image issue that Honda has with Acura... is it evident with Toyota's Lexus? I think not... so what is the difference? What is Toyota doing right that Honda isn't? Toyota started in 1990 when the Cressida became the ES250 then evolved from there... Acura has been around longer than that...

discuss..

moose66

Uh . . . . . some of us have purchased the RLX and are quite happy with it. However, if it was 70K, you might have a more valid point.

TacoBello

v8s, RWD, flagship comparable to the big Germans 7 series, s class, etc. Also their reliability has always been higher than Acuras, Honda's or Toyotas. The RLX is comparable to the 5 series, etc.

There was a time when both Lexus and Acura were both relative nobodies. Acura was actually ahead of Lexus, at one point. Lexus has given the people what they want, hence they buy. Acura remains tied to Honda which tells people what they want. There is a difference.

lexus also has a true performance segment since about 08 I believe. Acura killed theirs in 08, with the demise of the type s. Either way, the ISF was pushing 400hp V8s. Acura... Not so much.

on and on we go...


70k in Canada. But still, while there are happy RLX owners, there simply aren't enough RLX owners in general.