Thirstyturtle

Recently acquired a 2000 3.2TL with 205,000 miles from my buddy. It's been maintained from day 1 when he bought it brand new at the local Acura dealership. For everything, it has been taken there. I've spent a ton of time in this car over the last 12 years, driven it a ton, and even helped changed the oil a few times. My buddy moved overseas and needed to sell it quick so I got it for a steal at $2,000 (it does need the Timing Belt done again quite soon).

Anyways, I've never ever noticed any oil leaks on it and neither had my friend but since I've had for the last few days, everytime I park it in my driveway I've noticed oil spots. So I got under there tonight, cleaned everything really well, then cranked it up and let it idle for 20 minutes to see if I could isolate the location of the leak, here's what I found...











This amount of oil was observed in my driveway after two separate outings and then parking in the same spot. I would call this a pretty substantial leak in my opinion.

Can you guys tell where it's coming from? It appears to be centered behind that metal plate covering in the pictures which is on the oil reservoir part just to the driver's side of the main oil reservoir which houses the oil drain plug. I'm really hoping this isn't an extremely costly repair (obviously) even though I got a great deal on the car. Would it be possible to "seal up" this leak from the outside without replacing what I assume is a worn out gasket?

Thanks in advance, I'm super excited to be an Acura owner again and ready to drive this thing (hopefully) for a while.

Thirstyturtle

From some preliminary research I found a person online who had a very similar looking oil leak on their RL which was solved by tightening the oil pan bolts, does anyone think that's a possibility? I'm sure they've never been touched and could need to be re-torqued I suppose. I am pretty certain that this problem arose very quickly if that helps to pinpoint the fix.

Alex D

I had a oil leak at the oil pan and ended up removing the oil pan and resealing it.

fsttyms1

that is a rear main leak. tightening the pan wont fix it. That cover is the inspection cover and how you get to the bolts that attach the flex plate/tq converter.

victus1

You need a new rear main seal installed. Shop around at all the tranny shops to get the best price since the tranny needs to be removed. The seal is about $15.

acutee

Would that be a good time to swap tranny and replace rear main seal as the same time?

01tl4tl

Stop
REMOVE COVER AND LOOK AT THE OIL LEAK FROM SEAL
clean it all up so you can monitor after next step

there is a good chance you only need a PCV valve,, for ten bucks

remove PCV from rear valve cover and shake
needs to have ball inside move freely

when stuck it cant release massive engine pressure back to the TB
so it looks for easy path = blows past rear main seal causing leak,,
valve cover bolt gaskets etc
back in the day these were replaced every year

removing trans to replace seal is 4-6 hours labor at shop
thats why you want to be sure whats wrong!
new seal and still excess pressure will blow oil past the new seal

a ziner with this prob had no leak after new pcv

Thirstyturtle

Well I certainly hope that you're right and not the others. Has anyone else heard of this potential problem? Where is the PCV valve located on the rear valve cover?

If it is in fact the rear main seal, is there any type of interim or band-aid fix? Anyways to add some sealant on the exterior somewhere to at least slow the leak? What does the rear main seal separate?

Thanks so much guys!

3.2TLc

The "PCV" valve is located near the intake manifold just off the right rear edge, if looking at it from the front of the car. It'll have a short hose connected to it. Pull this valve out and check if it rattles, if not, it's gummed up and not working properly. Anyways, while you have it off.........just replace it for less than $10 and a few minutes of your time.

I'm a firm believer in the "KISS" (keep it simple stupid) theory. This has a slim chance of being the culprit, but try it along with cleaning all of the residual oil off of any affected area. If it's truly a seal leak, it'll be back soon enough. Then you have the decision as to how to deal with this leak.

I'd ask myself: 1st, How long am I planning on keeping this car ? 2nd, how much oil is the car actually losing ? 3rd, how much money and effort do I want to put into this ? 4th, sorry....but no external quick fixes, other than tightening all the external bolts up a bit . But, 5th, and I plead the "Fifth".....you could try the "FIX" in a bottle, all at your very own risk ! I'm in no way, shape or form recommending this, but if pulling the tranny and all the labor involved in replacing a $20 seal seems to make the risk more attractive. You could just leave it go as is, and replace oil as needed !

Thirstyturtle

Thanks for the specifics on the PCV valve! I'll check that tomorrow after work and I'm really hoping that's the problem (however unlikely that may be).

If it's not the problem, I'll definitely just have to keep an eye on it for a while because I don't have the $1,000+ that I've heard it's going to cost to have this done at a shop. I've read some about doing it myself but I think I'd have to pull the axles out in order to drop the transmission and that makes me nervous. Last time I try to change a wheel bearing on my VW Golf I destroyed an axle trying to get it out of the hub so the thought of getting 2 out on an older, higher mileage car makes me queasy.

I'll report back with any updates for people's future reference.

Thirstyturtle

I had a quick follow-up question:

Can this degradation of the rear main engine seal allow transmission oil to mix with engine oil or vice versa? And if so, how bad is that? I just want to make sure that the only negative thing this is currently causing is some engine oil on my driveway and having to keep an eye on the oil level. If there's a possibility of it causing further damage if it's not fixed soon then I will make it more of a priority!

Thirstyturtle

Well I checked the PCV valve and it does rattle a LITTLE but I was able to blow air through both sides and have it come out the other side, is that correct? Seems like it should only go one of the two ways...so maybe it's stuck open instead of closed, is that a problem?

3.2TLc

It's probably a bit sluggish, just replace it and you'll be sure that it's working better.

Thirstyturtle

You're probably right, I'll give the dealership a call and see how much a new one is. That way I'll rule it out as the culprit. I've also read that the line going from the valve back to the intake manifold could possibly be gooked up, I'll check that out with a flashlight and see what's up.

Assuming the new valve doesn't stop or slow down the leak, I supposed I'll start calling places and getting quotes for the rear main seal. I also need the timing belt changed so I'll have it all done at once...that's going to be a PAINFUL bill. But I got the car for $2,000 so even if I dump almost $2,000 in it I think it's not a bad deal considering the shape it's in...

Carbuff

On a car that old, you may as well let it leak a little. Be sure to post back with the esimates of rear main seal costs...

Remember, as long as it's still dripping, you are NOT out of oil!

Thirstyturtle

Well I replaced the PCV valve and at first I thought it worked because I cranked up the car and let it idle for about 20 minutes and didn't get a DROP. Then I drove it for about 10 minutes and parked it, and it dripped like usual (although I think it might have dripped a bit less than usual).

Ya I'm thinking that if it's not going to hurt anything other than oil puddles in my driveway then I'm not going to make it a top priority to have it fixed. Although I still plan on getting estimates and I might see if the combined timing belt/rear main seal replacement might net me a little savings.

Any way I could possibly minimize the amount of oil I leave in my driveway and on the road? I'll continue to monitor my oil level and keep some extra in the trunk but in the meantime I'm just going to have a continual period...

3.2TLc

How frequently do you have to add oil ? Is it like a quart every 1000 miles ?

What kind and weight of oil had your friend used previously ? Switching to synthetic in an older high mileage engine will oftentimes find a way to leak through weak gaskets and seals.

To help minimize oil spotting on the driveway, you could place a pig pad or cardboard under the leak. On the go, I imagine you could possibly fit or attach an absorbant pad to the effected area. Yeah.....right, like maybe Depends or Kotex.

victus1

Try various tranny shops. They are the experts. Replacing the rear seal alone should not be more than $500. That's what I paid a tranny shop to do this job. Ask them to give you the "shop price", i.e. the price they give other auto shops for farming out this job to them.

Carbuff

Assuming its engine oil not ATF, I'd try a High Mileage oil, these contain extra swelling agents for oil seals.

Plus, you could go "up" in viscosity. Our '99 specs 5W-30 but the first two years we owned it I used 20W-50 in summer with no ill effects. (<--- No criticism please, that was a LONG time ago, before I learned more about oils and lubrication...)

A narrow range of numbers is best, eg: use 10W-40 not 0W-40.

Keep watching it.

01tl4tl

keep 40 out of the TL engine!!!

the two jobs are not related,,trans removed for rear engine mail oil seal
opposite end of engine gets timing belt

Only engine oil comes out there
clean the pcv hose and wait to see if it drips less with new valve

ziner who cured his leak said it took a week or two,,seafoam and change oil
figure your valve has been clogged a long time and allowed grunge buildup
remove internal pressure = leak stops

never add any stop leak/anything to our oil!
messes up vtec and more

01tl4tl

4-6 hours labor to remove trans, replace seal, install trans
labor rates 60-120 per hour!!

I would let a trans shop familiar with the TL do rear main if needed,
and a private owner honda/acura specialty shop for the 105

Thirstyturtle

Thank all of you SO much for the help and advice!

I think the leak has lessened a bit but it is still dripping a bit, I'm now carrying a piece of cardboard around to catch the drippings in parking lots and my driveway.

I also just went through ALL the service records he gave me and at 187,000 miles it was noted by the dealership that there was a "oil leak at oil pump, recommend with timing belt". Does that mean replace the pump or a seal when the timing belt is done? Do you think the leak I'm noticing could be from the oil pump and not the rear main seal, or is this leak FOR SURE from the rear main? The belt was last replaced at 115,000 miles so I have it on my "do soon" list, but I could possibly do the oil pump my self.

Also, it's about due for an engine oil change. The dealership has been using Penzoil 5W-30 (I assume non-synthetic). I see one of you suggested a "high-mileage" oil and I think I'm going to go that route, probably a high-mileage 5w-30 non-synthetic oil. I do live in a warm climate (Wilmington, NC) where it only gets below freezing a handful of times during the winter, could I bump up a weight in engine oil? If so, what would you suggest?

Thanks guys, with your help hopefully I can reduce this leak...

3.2TLc

:} It's great to have the previous history of work performed available.

If you're capable of replacing the oil pump, then you'll be able to do the timing belt while you're in there. The t-belt must come off to access the internal oil pump. The oil pump includes a seal, o-ring and relief valve which could be potentially causing your car's "oil leak".

So, either plan on doing the T-belt replacement sooner......or put up with the leak a bit longer. Using a conventional "dino" oil in the meantime would be smart. In a warmer climate, you could bump up the lower value on the viscosity, but avoid going too heavy on the top number.
IE: 10-20 or 10-30, maybe even a straight 20w if you don't get below freezing temperatures. How much oil are you going through driving 1000 miles ?

Thirstyturtle

Well I have the ability to do the timing belt but in the interest of saving myself some inevitable stress and tension I plan on spending some extra money and having it done at a shop, I will plan on having the oil pump seal, 0-ring, and relief valve checked/changed when the timing belt is replaced.

As far as the amount of oil I'm using, I can't say. This car is my wife's and she only uses it around town, all of our trips and such are done in my Golf TDI (great mileage you see) so we've only put a few hundred miles on the TL so far. However, I checked today and she's full up to the top hole on the dipstick. I'll keep an eye on the amount and see when I first need to add some oil.

Thanks for all the help guys, I'll plan on having the oil pump situation checked out along with the timing belt, then monitor leakage after that. If I still have some I'll think about doing the rear main but in all likelihood I'll just let it leak and save the $1,000.

Thanks!

Gfaze

Your leak is definitely the rear main, not the oil pump seal which is right behind the crankshaft pulley. You may have a minor leak there too but your major one is the rear main. And what the dealer meant was that the seal needs to be replaced, not the pump.

As for the oil just keep using 5w30. There is no reason or benefit to using a different weight oil in your climate. You will still have a leak until it is repaired.

victus1

An oil pump leak is very easy to check. Just remove the front pass tire and look under that side of the engine. You will easily see the pump.

01tl4tl

no reason to use 10 anything in our engine
please go learn what oil ratings mean

5w 30 is best all around for MOST of us

yes a few years said 5-20 but that was to fool cafe fuel standards
best for engine is 30

the first number is viscosity/flowabilty with oil at 32F
so it means nothing to most of us in summer
the W means-WINTER =engine startup oil flowabilty,
how easy does the oil flow thru the system and lubricate parts? a lower number is thinner/faster (ice areas synthetic 0-20 good plan

the other number is at 220F= normal oil temp= running engine
both numbers are false as additives make it `work like` a 5 and a 30 depending on temp

40 is too thick and hard on vtec, which operates on oil pressure and from oil pressure changes with rpm/throttle position

read owner book and follow it

did you replace the PCV its a major part of your problem and short drives in town contribute to its clogging

ziner this worked for had been starting car for 5 minutes a week during winter
thinking that was better than it sitting
What happened was so much moisture got inside = never got hot enough by running to dry out,
led to clogged PCV and pressure forcing oil out seal
How do we know this was true source of problem?,,when parked for winter it had no leaks
only after mistreatment and getting ready for spring last year -and oil leaked bad

Thirstyturtle

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!

You were right! I replaced the PCV valve last week and the oil leak didn't seem to stop even after 2 days. However, I have been putting cardboard under the car and I haven't gotten a DROP of oil since last Saturday! I think it did stop the leak right away, but the constant heating and cooling of the engine was causing some residual oil already on the outside of the engine to loosen up and drip off the car. Anyways, everything is bone dry on the bottom of the engine now and like I said, haven't seen a drop of oil!

I really can't thank you enough, if you're ever in Wilmington, NC, I'll buy you a beer!

01tl4tl

nowhere near you but have one in my honor!

I suggest getting sludgy oil out of the system with a NEW oil filter for safety
then add
1/2 can seafoam to oil and drive 100-200 miles
change oil warm


earlier question re atf and eng oil mixing at rear main= NO it cant happen

01tl4tl

let this be info for all not to jump on bad rear main as the actual cause of leak

We now have proof it can be the PCV clogged = excess internal pressure
looking for the easy way out

everyone should install a new pcv,,10 bucks for good maitenance
all the parts on our car are 10 years in play~

Thirstyturtle

I had a few last night in your honor!

I am planning on seafoaming soon, probably do about 1/2 through the PCV system and the other half in the oil, then changing the oil in a couple hundred miles, how's that sound?

It can definitely be the PCV valve, so check it and pray you're as lucky as I am!

3.2TLc

Simply amazing ! .... but the 'Ziner "Gods" have answered many prayers before. It's good to know that we have such helpful people to assist in providing intelligent and resourceful alternatives to keep our old TL's running faithfully. Dedicated "hands-on" experience will conquer the gouging dealership's advisor !!!!

01tl4tl

seafoam thru pcv NO!!! NO NO NO NO NO am I clear on this?

seafoam in oil= half a can= yes

I would install new oil filter to catch all the crud seafoam will get loose
drive 100-200 miles and change with oil warm from 15 minute drive

seafoam in gas YES YES YES
a can in just under half a tank,,do that twice and its clean thru the entire system

no seafoam doesnt hurt any seals,,service writer bs! ,,but they will sell you a 100 dollar fuel injection service,,a machine hooks into fuel line with cleaner getting sucked in for 15-30 minutes at idle..
guess what many of those machines use? wait for it...

seafoam!!!! mixed 50-50 with gasoline

we can do that at home for less!

fsttyms1

At your next oil change try running a high mileage oil and see if that helps. It may it may not, but in any case it wont hurt the engine to try.