vasu

Recently, new user "peterjedi" asked me if I'd recomend $400 teflon coatings for a car from the dealer. I'd never heard of a teflon coating, but I know a bit about teflon, being a kitchen gear and cooking geek, so I came up with a theory on why I think it sounds fishy, here was my answer

So that was my response to a product I'd never heard of baed on my knowledge of teflon.

However, I wanted to post this to everyone because it was a good question and incase anyone else knew about it, knew if it worked, or knew if it was a rip off.

so anyonw know what's up?

-vasu

DEVO

teflon is cheap. and at $400.00 you are getting ripped off.

Helicobacter Pylori

Dealer probably just washes the car with Turtle carwash. It has teflon, doesn't it?

peterjedi

Sorry I should be more specific. The Acura dealer is offering SIMONIZ® System 5 for exterior and interior coating. It's about $370 dollars. It has a 5 year warrenty.

I asked a friend who knew a lot about cars. He said if you get Simoniz you don't need to wax your car or use polymers.

Regards,

Peter

briny319

A friend of mine works at a honda dealer and applies the simoniz system all the time. The reason ithey charge $370, is the amount of labor involved. It takes a few hours to apply. He got me the supplies that are involved for $15, which is what the dealer pays. Its two or three little bottles and and applicator. It is supposed to protect the car like a wax for a few yrs and protect the interior from spills and stains. By the way, I remember the color of the stuff in the bottlesbeing off white.

briny319

I think its good to have but there is no way I would pay the dealer $90+ per hour (4hrs) to apply it.

Dan Martin

Teflon "paint protection" was big in the 80's until it was proven to work for a couple days then the teflon would wear off. I guess people have forgotten so we're back at it again....

peterjedi

My car is not comming till the May 24th. I can still cancel. So you know Simoniz is junk? I think I am buying the insurance and not the actual protection. It is guarantee for 5 years.

Would there be a problem to apply the polymers over the Simoniz or should you never mix?

Helicobacter Pylori

It is guarantee for 5 years? How exactly? Scratch-free for 5 years? Get Simoniz and forget about waxing?

That's a lot of blah blah blah you heard. And you will probably hear more blah blah blah when you actually bring your car back to dealer.

I don't know man. This guarantee seems to be some kinda joke to me. If there is something almighty protective on earth, why manufacturers don't put it on in the first place? Think about it. It's an insurance that doesn't know what/how it insures.

And $370 is way enough to get yourself a decent washing and waxing kit that truly protects your car (when applied properly though).

Btw, welcome to the club.

the_dao

I'm a chemist by schooling, and generally a cynical bastard, so here are my thoughts of Teflon coatings/waxes:

First, how does Teflon work?

Teflon is a DuPont trademark name for polytetrafluoroethylene. It's a vinyl-type polymer made of carbon and florine atoms, arranged like this:

F F F F
| | | |
C-C-C-C-X (X is the continuation fo the chain)
| | | |
F F F F

Fluorine is the most electronegative atom on the periodic table, so it grabs electrons from other atoms readily. When it's bonded to carbon like this, the F atoms are very "happy" with the electrons from the carbon. Therefore, the F atoms will only react to other atoms under high pressure and/or high temperature.

That's the long way to say that Teflon is chemically inert - nothing sticks to it.

If nothing sticks to it, how do they get it to stick to pans/screws etc.?

The first layer of a Teflon coat isn’t pure polytetrafluorothylene, they replace some of the F atoms with other atoms (or groups, I’m not sure), and the other atoms stick to the surface. The second layer is usually pure Teflon since Teflon will stick to itself (like dissolves like, or rather molecules of similar polarity and electron density don’t mind being neighbors). The third layer is Teflon with hardeners is applied for physical (scratching) protection of the inner Teflon layer.

BUT (there’s always a “but”, isn’t there?)

Teflon does not protect against physical contact from dense/fast moving objects. Take a steel fork to a hot frying pan and you’ll scratch off the Teflon.

My opinion of Teflon coatings for cars:

The Simonize treatment is a lot like what they do for nonstick pans. They put a layer of something sticky, a layer of Teflon, and layer of sealant (or something close to that process). Polyfluoroethylene is actually white (not black, they add coloring to make pans black). Now what I don’t get is, how do they get it clear? Teflon needs many layers to be effective, so it should at least be white.

I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt, so let’s assume there’s a layer of Teflon on the car. Great, now you can cook eggs on your hood! Seriously, the car’s paint should be protected from chemicals (bird droppings, hard water deposits, tree sap, etc.). Chemically, the only problem I can see with it is that oxidizers/UV can get at the binding chemicals and eat away at the coating. Not at the Teflon itself, but on the binders used to keep the Teflon on there. They probably add UV absorbing chemicals in there to compensate.

The Teflon won’t protect your car from scratches. Then again, nothing really will. The ClearBra or 3M polymer films are the best, but no polymer/wax coating available will. Therefore, I don’t like the Simonize thing since you can’t reapply it over a scratch or worn down area. That’s the purpose of waxes/polishes – they’re made to take damage and wear down, and you reapply them when they’re used up.

So what about those new Teflon polishes?
I just checked the DuPont Teflon wax, and it says it’s a Carnuba wax. That means to me that it’s a Carnuba wax with added Teflon. Which means that it should wear off just like a Carnuba wax (in what, 3-4 weeks?). Which also means to me it’s pretty useless having the Teflon in there, since it’s going to wear off in the same time as a normal Carnuba wax. Yes it may give you more chemical protection, but a good layer of wax should protect your paint anyway.

To sum up: I think the Simonize is too expensive and you can’t reapply it, so I wouldn’t use it. The Teflon waxes don’t sound like they really put a layer of Teflon on your car. Plus it’s a Carnuba wax which means you have to reapply it once a month. I may want to read some reviews of the stuff before I’d use it or write it off.

For now, I’m going to stick to polymer polishes (Zaino) since they’ve been proven to work well over the years, and I’m going to get a ClearBra as soon as I sell my old car!

Note: These are totally my opinion, and I could be wrong.

peterjedi

Thanks for your detail description of teflon and how it is used.

I assume since teflon only sticks to itself you would need some compond to mix with the teflon so the compond would stick to pure teflon.


pure teflon -------> chemical compond with less teflon ----> chemical compond with even less teflon --> eventually you can reach a surface with no teflon.

Would the above model ever work? I bet it would be expensive.

Thanks for everyones advice. I am going to cancel on the teflon.

the_dao

peterjedi:

It doesn't need to be that complicated. I kinda explained it in my post. They get Teflon to stick to objects by using a layer of "unpure" polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) as the first layer. Unpure polytetrafluoroethylene replaces some fluorine atoms with other atoms (or groups of atoms) that will stick to surfaces (the process is called "doping").

Think if unpure PTFE like a long string (PTFE polymer) with little pieces of gum (replacement atoms) stuck to it every few inches.

So it works like this:

Frying pan ---> frying pan + unpure PTFE ---> frying pan + unpure PTFE + Teflon layer ---> frying pan + unpure PTFE + Teflon layer + hardened Teflon mixture

So you can get Teflon onto a surface, and it's not that hard.