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DVD-Audio Primer

 
Old 12-24-2003, 01:11 AM
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Thumbs up Thanks Jon......

......for that very informative reply! While I'm here I'd like to get your thoughts on a couple of things:

If I take out the DVD player in the dash (DIN-size), and replace it with one of the aftermarket DVD audio/video players that are now available, will it magically transform my system into a DVD-audio capable 5.1 surround sound system??.....or am I oversimplifying things here?? (wishful thinking ) .......does this format also require different circuitry for processing the "surround" signal sent by the DVD-audio player?? .......and I guess there needs to be another center speaker for the center channel??

Thanks, Vic
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Old 12-24-2003, 10:46 AM
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Re: Thanks Jon......

Hi Vic,

While I probably need more specific information to be 100% sure of my response, here is my 90% sure response :

The irony of DVD-A surround sound is that, once it leaves the player, you want zero surround sound circuitry!

In fact, the only way to enjoy the hi-rez surround sound DVD-A tracks on a DVD-A disc is to ensure that the outputs of the DVD-A player are analog (not digital). Only the analog (ie., 6 RCA cables) outputs are able to transmit the full resolution of a DVD-A track at this point in time. The traditional digital connectors (coax or optical) are designed to transmit only CD, DD, and DTS signals.... not DVD-A.

So, if your new head unit lets you connect 6 analog outs to a 6 (or 5.1) channel amplifier via analog connectors, there's a good chance it'll work, and you'll be able to listen to and enjoy the DVD-A track.

Hope this helps...

Jon

Originally posted by vicpai
......for that very informative reply! While I'm here I'd like to get your thoughts on a couple of things:

If I take out the DVD player in the dash (DIN-size), and replace it with one of the aftermarket DVD audio/video players that are now available, will it magically transform my system into a DVD-audio capable 5.1 surround sound system??.....or am I oversimplifying things here?? (wishful thinking ) .......does this format also require different circuitry for processing the "surround" signal sent by the DVD-audio player?? .......and I guess there needs to be another center speaker for the center channel??

Thanks, Vic
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Old 12-24-2003, 11:24 AM
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Re: Re: Thanks Jon......

Originally posted by JonDeutsch
Only the analog (ie., 6 RCA cables) outputs are able to transmit the full resolution of a DVD-A track at this point in time.
The technology certainly exists to provide a digital bitstream of the full DVD-A signal, but copy protection is the main reason that players don't have it yet.

BTW, here's a presentation on the Watermarking used in DVD-A. It will survive lossy encoding down to 32kbps. Pretty robust stuff! I don't think this business model will continue to work for the industry. People will want a way to make their own DVD-As without compromising the quality.

Mike
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Old 12-26-2003, 08:46 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Thanks Jon......

Yes, it does. In fact, several manufacturers have proprietary digital connections between their own DVD-A players and receivers. However, for standard compatability between manufacturers, analog is the only way to enjoy hi-rez audio now.

Go Monster Cable Lobby.

Jon

Originally posted by svtmike
The technology certainly exists to provide a digital bitstream of the full DVD-A signal, but copy protection is the main reason that players don't have it yet.

Mike
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Old 01-02-2004, 09:35 AM
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DTS CD/ DVD-A

Let me put forth another way of looking at the different audio formats.

1. I like the way the 5.1 surround sounds in the demo disc.
2. I want to enjoy this format, yet I am concerned about making investments in music in different storage media.

I have well over 1000 cd's that I've purchased over the years, I use Apple's iTunes, and own an iPod. For whatever reason, I have never gotten into the downloading of music over the internet.

However, I am concerned about formats that have much more advanced copy protection, such as the DVD-A - and the limitation it may place on my ability to listen to the music I purchase in different environments.

Does anyone know if either the DVD-A or the DTS-CD can be copied into an mp3 format - ie.. I don't want to invest money in a format that I cannot use fully.

DTS-CD - can it be imported into an MP3 player - and if it can, obviously I'd lose the 5.1 encoding, I assume??

Same with the DVD-A (although, I think I already know the answer, here - that it is pretty well locked up with copy protection).
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Old 01-02-2004, 11:45 AM
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Re: DTS CD/ DVD-A

MP3 is not a viable 'medium' for DVD-A or SACD content. Why? Well, as far as I understand it, MP3 is a stereo (2 channel) only compression scheme. It does not have the ability to reproduce 5.1 surround sound.

So, MP3 is out.

But even if a surround sound "MP3-like" format came out, you would not be able to copy a DVD-A because they are copy protected pretty well.

You could copy a DTS-CD or DVD-A disc to MP3 via "analog transfer" no problem! You just can't do either digitally... because MP3 is not setup to merge 5.1 channels into 2.

My B&K Reference 30 pre/pro has a mode that downmixes 5.1 into 2 channel stereo, so in theory, I could burn a DTS or DVD-A onto MP3 via analog domain. That's the only way to "enjoy" a DTS or DVD-A on an iPod or similar device. Since MP3s can never replicate the quality of a DVD-A anyway, analog downmixing may not be such a bad alternative anyway.

Jon

Originally posted by JeffK
Let me put forth another way of looking at the different audio formats.

1. I like the way the 5.1 surround sounds in the demo disc.
2. I want to enjoy this format, yet I am concerned about making investments in music in different storage media.

I have well over 1000 cd's that I've purchased over the years, I use Apple's iTunes, and own an iPod. For whatever reason, I have never gotten into the downloading of music over the internet.

However, I am concerned about formats that have much more advanced copy protection, such as the DVD-A - and the limitation it may place on my ability to listen to the music I purchase in different environments.

Does anyone know if either the DVD-A or the DTS-CD can be copied into an mp3 format - ie.. I don't want to invest money in a format that I cannot use fully.

DTS-CD - can it be imported into an MP3 player - and if it can, obviously I'd lose the 5.1 encoding, I assume??

Same with the DVD-A (although, I think I already know the answer, here - that it is pretty well locked up with copy protection).
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Old 01-09-2004, 10:14 AM
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Okay, I have a question... will someone be able to burn a DVD-V disc but with no movie, just the soundtrack? Isn't that how those DVD music discs are, except they have a movie?

Do those play in our TLs? I know someone tried playing a movie and it got spit back out, but how about this?
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Old 01-09-2004, 11:16 AM
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Lore,

That doesn't work. You have to burn a DVD-A, which is not the same as a DVD-V with only audio content.

Mike
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Old 01-15-2004, 04:11 PM
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Discwelder

I sent a mail to Diswelder with the suggestion to make a cheapo version and guess what... it's already in the works and should hit the streets in a few months for $99.

It'll be a simple tool that allows you to burn DVD-A from you CDs: 2 channel at 44.1KHz. This version will not support auto conversion of MP3s, but I suggested that to them for version 2, and they seemed pretty receptive to the idea.
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Old 01-21-2004, 07:10 AM
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Okay, I've had my TL for just over one month now and loving the heck out of both XM (especially comedy) and the DVD-A. All excited about the DVD-A from the demo, I finally got to go shopping by my self (wife doesn't let me out of the house alone too often) and went straight over to Bestbuy for their mega collection of DVD-A and what do I see? 2 racks only 1/2 full.

Although the selection was twice as much as what they had in SACD, I can't tell you how dissapointing it was for me to pace back and forth across 12' of music selection. I did finally purchase Linda Ronstadt and Donald Fagan (originally looking for some classic Rush).

So, message is clear. We either go out as force and become a consumer or get stuck holding a Beta deck. The nice thing is that this Beta deck is housed in one hell of a scooter and that it still plays it's equivalent of an old reel film. And, if the DVD-A goes flop, I'm sure the price on the remaining collection will drop like a rock and I, along with other TL owners, will be there to collect sorrowfully.

04 TL / 5AT / Nav
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Old 01-21-2004, 09:35 AM
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casooner90,

Go to http://www.dvd-audio.org to see all the titles that are available. All are available on-line.

Jon
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Old 01-21-2004, 09:03 PM
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I note a total of 663 titles on DVD-A of that 85 titles are available at low prices from deepdiscountdvd.com with free delivery. Expect it to take two - three weeks to get your selections. So far I have not been disappointed.
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Old 01-21-2004, 09:11 PM
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deepdiscountdvd has more than 85 titles!

Do a search on their page for "DVD-A" in the title. You'll pull up about 20 pages of selections.

Mike
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Old 01-21-2004, 09:46 PM
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Old 01-21-2004, 10:15 PM
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Thanks for the link.

gldman
even better. The prices at deepdiscoutdvd is the best I've seen so far.

I'd still like to more selections in '80s rock (pink floyd, rush, Zep, etc...). I know, you're all probably wondering why I bought Linda Ronstadt - because the TL makers her sound marvelous!
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Old 01-21-2004, 10:40 PM
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You're not going to see an onslaught of new titles until they release the DVD-A hybrid format this summer. The hybrid will be the same as a DVD-A disc today, but it will also play on all CD players as well.

This is to help compete against the success of Hybrid SACDs of late. I think it's a good plan.

Jon
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Old 01-21-2004, 11:14 PM
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If you don't mind an uninformed question, what's SCAD? Is that a competeing multi-channel disk format to DVD-A?
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Old 01-22-2004, 07:48 AM
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Woodstock (and everyone who might be interested)...

Please check out the DVD-Audio Primer thread that is "sticky" at the top of the list of topics in the forum for a lot more in-depth discussion about DVD-A.

Quickly, SACD is a "competing" hi-resolution audio disc format to DVD-A. What makes SACD different than DVD-A?

1. It's patented and marketed by Sony
2. It uses a brand new way of recording materials
3. It's original intent was hi-rez stereo, but has evolved into surround sound as well
4. It cannot hold any video
5. Some SACDs are "hybrid" and can also play on CD players

Jon
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Old 01-22-2004, 11:33 AM
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Just to verify answers to some (probably silly) questions...

Are these all true?

1) 04TL will play both CD and DVD-A (both stereo and surround).
2) 04TL won't play SCAD disks
3) 04TL will play home burnt DVD-A (say I wanted to put multiple cd's on a single DVD-A at "cd quality"
4) 04TL won't play mp3s burnt on CD
5) 04TL won't play a movie DVD on the nav screen if I replace the nav dvd media with Finding Nemo.

Do I have all those right?
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Old 01-22-2004, 11:37 AM
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Those are all correct!

Mike
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Old 01-22-2004, 11:09 PM
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I used Movie Jack to make a copy of my Marvin Gaye DVD-A. Movie Jack and similar products will only copy the TS_VIDEO folder and NOT the audio folder. I burned the video folder using Nero to a DVD+RW disk. I played it on my home DVD player and it plays in 5.1 surround! I loaded the disk in my TL and it did not accept it. Too bad.

Atleast, I can have a copy for my home listening without taking the original out of my car.

I also tried DVD xcopy. I can copy the Acura demo disk but not the Marvin Gaye DVD.
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Old 01-22-2004, 11:29 PM
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If you know how to extract the AC3 bitstream from a DVD-V, there are free programs out there to decode that into 6 separate .WAVs, which can then be burned onto a DVD-A that will play in the TL.

Mike
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Old 01-23-2004, 11:18 AM
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This will work, but just to be clear... you'll lose the 'advanced resolution' of the original DVD-A and as a result you may lose some clarity and detail in the copy.

Jon

Originally posted by svtmike
If you know how to extract the AC3 bitstream from a DVD-V, there are free programs out there to decode that into 6 separate .WAVs, which can then be burned onto a DVD-A that will play in the TL.

Mike
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Old 01-23-2004, 12:54 PM
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Originally posted by JonDeutsch
This will work, but just to be clear... you'll lose the 'advanced resolution' of the original DVD-A and as a result you may lose some clarity and detail in the copy.

Jon
Just some clarification: I was talking about working with DVD-V's, not DVD-A's. I've experimented with this with DVD-A's and found that the AC3 signal is also watermarked, so this often cannot be done at all with a DVD-A.

If you're working from a DVD-V which has as its highest resolution track the .AC3 stream, however, the resulting DVD-A will have all of the resolution of the original stream.

Mike
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Old 01-23-2004, 01:42 PM
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OIC.

Yes, I made the assumption you were talking about ripping the AC3 track from a DVD-A. My bad.

Still a shame that I'd need to buy two copies of every DVD-A that I like (um, that'd be 100% of them).

That watermarking scheme is going to become quite costly for those who want to enjoy DVD-A in more than one setting. All my DVD-As are happily indexed in a mega-changer right now, and I have no interest in finding them, removing them, and re-inserting them whenever I want to take a spin.

Jon


Originally posted by svtmike
Just some clarification: I was talking about working with DVD-V's, not DVD-A's. I've experimented with this with DVD-A's and found that the AC3 signal is also watermarked, so this often cannot be done at all with a DVD-A.

If you're working from a DVD-V which has as its highest resolution track the .AC3 stream, however, the resulting DVD-A will have all of the resolution of the original stream.

Mike
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Old 01-23-2004, 02:29 PM
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You can get the Surcode DTS Encoder and make a DTS CD of them. Watermarking is only checked on DVD, not "legacy media".

Mike
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Old 01-23-2004, 03:54 PM
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Hmmm... that's an interesting idea. How much does that software cost?

Jon

Originally posted by svtmike
You can get the Surcode DTS Encoder and make a DTS CD of them. Watermarking is only checked on DVD, not "legacy media".

Mike
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Old 01-23-2004, 06:55 PM
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Just like everything else, it's $500. Youch!!!!

Mike
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Old 01-25-2004, 09:13 PM
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I'm getting my TL mid-Feb. Do all new owners get a copy of that dealer demo disk?
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Old 01-25-2004, 09:19 PM
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I believe all owners get a Demo CD.

The dealer had one in the head unit and also gave me one new in its case. so now I have 2 originals!
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Old 01-28-2004, 12:03 PM
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I've had really enjoyed reading this thread and feel that I have learned a good deal. However haven't you all, or any of you, had problems with the 2004 TL rejecting certain DVD-A discs? I have. and I don't understand why. DVD-a's on the Silverline label don't play in the 04TL also I've had some problems with the Barenboim-Beethoven Symphonies on Teldec. What will happen is that I put the DVDA in and the ELS sound sytem will eject it. I've tried this on two 04TL's
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Old 01-28-2004, 05:59 PM
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John, do those rejected disks play in other (non-TL) DVD-A players OK? I haven't had any problems with my DVD-A's but I only have 8 of them.
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Old 01-28-2004, 06:46 PM
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my DVD-A disc got rejected during test at dealership. My dealer got help from another dealer, and he was told the car is TSX, not TL.
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Old 01-28-2004, 09:18 PM
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The other discs played fine on my computer DVD player. Well that isn't really true, fortunately I was able to take the Silverline disc back to Tower Records immediately after trying it in the Tower Records parking lot. I own to Teldec DVD-A's that work in my computer DVD but not in the TL. They do both say they have Surround Sound 5.0, not 5.1. Could that be the reason? However the Silverline DVD was not called DVD-Audio it was called DVD-Music but it said that it would play on any DVD player, it had Surround Sound 5.1

Any ideas?
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Old 01-28-2004, 09:36 PM
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There's been some discussion about this product here earlier. I saw this news release tonight.

--Lee

------


Announcing BRONZE - The $99 DVD-Audio Tool

For the first time, consumers can easily write their own high-resolution DVD-A’s for under $100.

Minnetonka Audio Software is proud to announce the release of discWelder™ BRONZE, a basic DVD-Audio authoring program that allows consumers and prosumers to deliver surround and high-resolution audio on DVD-Recordable media, at the unprecedented price of $99. With discWelder BRONZE, the user can import all Linear PCM formats supported in the DVD-Audio specification, including surround (up to 6 channels of 24-bit, 48kHz audio) and high-resolution stereo (two channels of 24-bit, 192kHz audio). Surround and stereo tracks may be used on the same disc, in WAV or AIFF file format, and discWelder-burned media will play on any DVD-A player that supports DVD±R/W. The Windows-based program is brilliantly simple to use, and can burn DVD-Audio discs utilizing inexpensive DVD±R/W drives.

Minnetonka’s discWelder BRONZE offers hi-res DVD-Audio disc writing at a category-defining price, and will be shipping in March 2004.

discWelder BRONZE Features:
· Supports Linear PCM formats: 16- and 24-bit depth; 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192kHz sample rates (Stereo); 44.1, 48kHz (5.1 Surround); WAV or AIFF files
· Supports Intermixed Surround and Stereo (PCM only) Tracks
· Multiple DVD±R/W Burner Support
· 1 Group with up to 99 Tracks
· Drag-and Drop or Double-Click Soundfile Placement
· Downmix Properties Preset to Industry Standards
System Requirements – Windows 98/2000/NT/XP with 10 GB free hard disc space and supported DVD±R/W drive.

-----


High Fidelity Review
DVD-Audio News Story:


Minnetonka Announce discWelder BRONZE – A $99 DVD-Authoring Tool
Minnetonka Audio Software have announced the release of discWelder™ BRONZE, a $99 DVD-Audio authoring program that allows consumers and prosumers to deliver surround and high-resolution audio on DVD-Recordable media – for the first time, consumers can easily write their own high-resolution DVD-A’s for under $100.

With discWelder BRONZE, the user can import all Linear PCM formats supported in the DVD-Audio specification, including surround (up to 6 channels of 24-bit, 48kHz audio) and high-resolution stereo (two channels of 24-bit, 192kHz audio). Surround and stereo tracks may be used on the same disc, in WAV or AIFF file format, and discWelder-burned media will play on any DVD-A player that supports DVD±R/W. The Windows-based program is brilliantly simple to use, and can burn DVD-Audio discs utilizing inexpensive DVD±R/W drives.

Minnetonka’s discWelder BRONZE offers hi-res DVD-Audio disc writing at a category-defining price, and will be shipping in March 2004. For more information, please visit discWelder via the URL at the foot of this story.


Minnetonka discWelder BRONZE screenshot


discWelder BRONZE Features:
Supports Linear PCM formats: 16- and 24-bit depth; 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192kHz sample rates (Stereo); 44.1, 48kHz (5.1 Surround); WAV or AIFF files
Supports Intermixed Surround and Stereo (PCM only) Tracks
Multiple DVD±R/W Burner Support
1 Group with up to 99 Tracks
Drag-and Drop or Double-Click Soundfile Placement
Downmix Properties Preset to Industry Standards
System Requirements – Windows 98/2000/NT/XP with 10 GB free hard disc space and a supported DVD±R/W drive.

About Minnetonka Audio:

Minnetonka Audio Software is the world leader in affordable DVD-Audio authoring tools with discWelder STEEL and discWelder CHROME. Minnetonka Audio also offers SurCode™ professional audio encoders for MLP, Dolby Digital, Dolby Pro Logic II, and DTS.


discWelder BRONZE - available in March 2004.
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Old 01-29-2004, 12:19 AM
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Iwould love a coldplay-dvd audio
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Old 01-29-2004, 11:22 AM
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John,

Welcome to format hell. First, unless your DVD player and decoder on your PC are specifically DVD-Audio compatible (I think only Creative Labs has a DVD-A compatible system right now), you're more than likely listening to the DVD-Video audio portion of the DVD (or Dolby Digital/DTS tracks). This would not be the same track that your TL would be playing back on that DVD-Audio disc. Read the 1st post on this thread to learn more about the DVD-Audio format.

DVD-Music is likely not a real, true DVD-Audio disc... which means that it won't play on your TL's system. It must brandish the DVD-Audio logo on the case specifically. The TL will play DTS Music Discs (CDs) and normal CDs. But it will not play just any DVD that has music on it. If it's a DVD with music, it MUST be DVD-Audio for the TL to play it back.

Jon

Originally posted by John Gates
The other discs played fine on my computer DVD player. Well that isn't really true, fortunately I was able to take the Silverline disc back to Tower Records immediately after trying it in the Tower Records parking lot. I own to Teldec DVD-A's that work in my computer DVD but not in the TL. They do both say they have Surround Sound 5.0, not 5.1. Could that be the reason? However the Silverline DVD was not called DVD-Audio it was called DVD-Music but it said that it would play on any DVD player, it had Surround Sound 5.1

Any ideas?
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Old 02-12-2004, 11:16 AM
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Originally posted by JonDeutsch
You're not going to see an onslaught of new titles until they release the DVD-A hybrid format this summer. The hybrid will be the same as a DVD-A disc today, but it will also play on all CD players as well.

This is to help compete against the success of Hybrid SACDs of late. I think it's a good plan.

Jon
I saw on the deepdiscountdvd website that they have some discs with the DualDisc title (hybrid CD/DVD disc), so I am assuming that this came out sooner than Summer. I'm just not finding many good titles and am hoping a lot more come out soon!
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Old 02-12-2004, 11:42 AM
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You'll need to point out where you found this. I searched through the site and found no DualDisc titles.

Thanks,
Jon

Originally posted by wanta04tl
I saw on the deepdiscountdvd website that they have some discs with the DualDisc title (hybrid CD/DVD disc), so I am assuming that this came out sooner than Summer. I'm just not finding many good titles and am hoping a lot more come out soon!
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Old 02-12-2004, 11:54 AM
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It was actually at
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/re.../dvda_date.asp

and here is some info on DualDisc
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