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Comprehensive list of known early build problems

Old 12-13-2003, 01:01 AM
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Re: Got my car back from service.

Originally posted by tallrussian
Just got my car back from the dealer after being there for 2 days for the following items.

1. Vibration at 55-58MPH.
Dealers response: Test drove on various road services and at 55MPH no abnormal vibration was found.
You're not the only one getting these answers. My dealer told me the exact same thing. Whatever I don't like, I have complained to ACS.


2. Memory seats lose settings. Dealer's response: Could not duplicate the problem. Operating normal at this time.
Couldn't duplicate. Ask me to bring back when it takes place. Would I have nothing to do everyday?


5. Hood hard to close. Please advise. Dealer's response: Normal for 2004 TL. No problem found.
It's always hard to close since the first day in Oct....
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Old 12-13-2003, 12:44 PM
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Lemon Laws

I too have the problem of strong vibrations at 52 MPH when in low RPM (1500 or so) and also slight vibrations at around 35 and 75 MPH In addition to this there is the high-frequency vibrations at ALL speeds.

When the vibration at 52 mph starts the car (5AT) is in 5th gear and then if I use the SS and shift it down to 4th gear the vibrations go away. And if i use the SS from start and not let the car be in low RPMs, the vibrations never appear. So it has to be tranny problem and the shift times. It is a shame that Acura having had the tranny problems for over 3 years now, continues to sell cars without correcting it. Isn't this illegal :wow:

I have already put around 2800 miles and the vibrations have gotten a little worse and not better (as posted by some other member that the dealer said it would go away after 2000 miles).

I have already been to the dealer once about the vibration issue and they rebalanced and rotated the tires but that didn't solve the problem. I am taking it back next week.

Also some body had posted that Acura has agreed to replace the Bridgestone tires with Michelin tires. But member grohstein recently posted that he was told NO by ACS? And my dealer also told that he hasn't received any communication regarding this from Acura. Does anybody know for sure that Acura is replacing tires?

I am planning on using the Lemon Laws for new cars. In IL if the dealer can't fix the problem in four attempts, they have to exchange the car with a new car. So, I am planning to go to the dealer four times as soon as possible (& not wait for scheduled services like oil change, etc.) and if they can't fix it or claim that they don't see the problem (like in the case of memory setting loss), then I WILL file the complaint for the Lemon laws. Some states may not even require you to try four times before filing complaint. So, everybody who is having this problems should do this. Only after a few people do this might Acura start taking some actions. Because right now they don't seem to be doing anything.
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Old 12-13-2003, 03:20 PM
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Re: Lemon Laws

Originally posted by GCool
I too have the problem of strong vibrations at 52 MPH when in low RPM (1500 or so) and also slight vibrations at around 35 and 75 MPH In addition to this there is the high-frequency vibrations at ALL speeds.

When the vibration at 52 mph starts the car (5AT) is in 5th gear and then if I use the SS and shift it down to 4th gear the vibrations go away. And if i use the SS from start and not let the car be in low RPMs, the vibrations never appear. So it has to be tranny problem and the shift times. It is a shame that Acura having had the tranny problems for over 3 years now, continues to sell cars without correcting it. Isn't this illegal :wow:

I have already put around 2800 miles and the vibrations have gotten a little worse and not better (as posted by some other member that the dealer said it would go away after 2000 miles).

I have already been to the dealer once about the vibration issue and they rebalanced and rotated the tires but that didn't solve the problem. I am taking it back next week.

Also some body had posted that Acura has agreed to replace the Bridgestone tires with Michelin tires. But member grohstein recently posted that he was told NO by ACS? And my dealer also told that he hasn't received any communication regarding this from Acura. Does anybody know for sure that Acura is replacing tires?

I am planning on using the Lemon Laws for new cars. In IL if the dealer can't fix the problem in four attempts, they have to exchange the car with a new car. So, I am planning to go to the dealer four times as soon as possible (& not wait for scheduled services like oil change, etc.) and if they can't fix it or claim that they don't see the problem (like in the case of memory setting loss), then I WILL file the complaint for the Lemon laws. Some states may not even require you to try four times before filing complaint. So, everybody who is having this problems should do this. Only after a few people do this might Acura start taking some actions. Because right now they don't seem to be doing anything.
I've met with a District Parts and Service guy from Acura Corp. Here's what he is saying:

1. All TL exhibit this characteristics. The severity differs from car to car. Most cars will exhibit minor vibration, almost undetectable, unless u know what you're looking for. While others (minority) will experience noticeable vibrations.

2. The transmission, in order for a 270 hp engine to be as fuel efficient, environmentally friendly and quite, Acura designers set the shift point very low. Meaning, at 50, the car shifts to 5th gear at 1500rpm. This has a side effect of causing the engine to vibrate.

I thought at that point, I was making head way. OK, they've acknowledged the issue and explained to me why it's happening...but I had my hopes shattered when he stated that since its within design specs, there is nothing they can do. In other words, the engine is working as designed.

Whaaaaaaat? I think this is a major design defect. Am I crazy? What other cars do you know that exhibits that engine characteristics. No car I know, be it, Hyundai or S Class MB vibrates at 50-55 because the engine shifts into 5th at 1500rpm.

I expected him to say, Acura Engineers are aware of this problem, and are working on a resolution...please be patient. I'll let you know immediately when a resolution is found.

But no, he told me to take my car out of service (by the way in there for 19 days) and drive it home. Am I being unreasonable for being pissed off???

Anyone in DC Metro area who's experiencing this problem or would like a demonstration of how to re-produce this problem, respond and we can all pick a date and time to meet at either Pohanka or Radley.

I sware, I am not going to rest until Acura not only aknowledges this problem, but also at least state that they are working on a fix.
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Old 12-13-2003, 03:29 PM
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Also, I thought of the lemon law route, but I'll tell u the truth, I don't want my money back. If I get my money back, what other cars are out there? What will I get? I would have to spend alot more money to get the features rivaling the TL. Other than the engine vibration issue, I am pretty satisfied with the car. I don't really care about the rattles, seat memory, and such. I know they will eventually come out with a fix.

All I want is for Acura to acknowledge at least that ther r working on finding a fix to the engine vibrations, but if they don't, I may have to go that route (lemon law)
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Old 12-13-2003, 04:28 PM
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I don't think you can get your money back according to the Lemon Laws. You can only exchange your car for a similar new one.

fsconsult, you said that the Acura rep told you that the vibrations are within design specs and not a flaw. Then they should have documented it somewhere and also informed potential customers about it. I am pretty sure that Acura's argument will not stand in any court nor I think any jury will side with Acura. Had I been informed of this "feature", I don't think I would have bought this car - no matter how many other nice features it has. My vibrations seem to be getting worse and I am afraid the vibrations will cause long term damage to other parts of the car (like insulation, fitting, etc.).
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Old 12-13-2003, 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by GCool
I don't think you can get your money back according to the Lemon Laws. You can only exchange your car for a similar new one.

fsconsult, you said that the Acura rep told you that the vibrations are within design specs and not a flaw. Then they should have documented it somewhere and also informed potential customers about it. I am pretty sure that Acura's argument will not stand in any court nor I think any jury will side with Acura. Had I been informed of this "feature", I don't think I would have bought this car - no matter how many other nice features it has. My vibrations seem to be getting worse and I am afraid the vibrations will cause long term damage to other parts of the car (like insulation, fitting, etc.).
GCool:

I agree, I don't know what further damage this will do to my engine related to the vibration.???? What will be the results after one year or two years down the road?

If they can fix this issue, I will be very happy, BUT I don't think Acura will do this unless alot of people complain. WHY????

1. If they admit fault and are forced to change shift points in the transmission, they will have to re-state the mpg rating on all the TL's. The car will not be as fuel efficient.

2. If they change shift points, they may have to change other engine programming reducing the rated HP? Just speculation.

And we know what happened to Hyundai and Mazda when they had to re-state HP.

Anytime an Auto manufacturer changes any stated spec of the car, the public will not respond well.
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Old 12-13-2003, 04:55 PM
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I'm a lemon law arbitrator in CT, in our State and most states you can get a new vehicle, be released from lease or get money paid back (possibly minus a charge for milege,) if after three attempted repairs car defect that substanially impairs
use ,safety or value can not be cured,. Usually you file with in first 18 months of ownership. State differ but pretty much a variation of above.. the key is whether the defect substanailly imparts
use,safety or value, Note many companies like BMW MB will settle before a finding is made, Its not good for reputation of car maker,. I bet if you met with Factory Rep and mentioned lemon law.,they would do something, especially considering how wide spread this problem seams to be,
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Old 12-13-2003, 05:07 PM
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thanks...by the way, before meeting with the District Parts and Service rep, I did consult an attorney. He stated basically what you've said. He also advised me to document everything. Names of people you've met, what was done to your car, etc.

Also, if your car is in the shop for a total of 30 days, within the first 18 month of purchasing the car, you can lemon the car as well (at least in VA). I had my car in there for 19 days within 1.5 months. I guess that is why the Rep wanted to release the car as fast as possible to me.

I'm hoping that I don't have to get to that point. I'm still hoping Acura will stand by their product and do the right thing.
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Old 12-13-2003, 05:17 PM
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Also, if the vibrations were part of the design, then ALL new Automatic TLs should have had this problem. But, I am not sure this is the case. A lot of people on this forum have said that they do not have the vibrations we seem to have (around 52 mph). So, since all cars do not have the vibrations wouldn't this mean that this is mfg. issue and not a standard thing.
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Old 12-13-2003, 05:19 PM
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I hope theycan fix your car, I have put off ]buying a 6mt as I felt the car rode harshly, and I was sore after driinving for less than ten miutes It might be the vibrations that cause it, MY 528 bmw is very smooth, you can't feel any vibration through seats wheel , except at 800 rpm in very cold weather , but only at that engine speed , which is not
in normal driiving range, BMW rep compared it to a second car, did same. v-8 bmw do it around 1100 rpm. but much stronger and can feel through seat.I think all engine has a slight resonance, but tl's v-6 is more pronounced and through a broader range of engine speeds, Some of it may me tranny related as tranny shifts into 5th at a very low rpm,
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Old 12-13-2003, 05:26 PM
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In your general opinion, from what you've read on this board related to engine vibrations, do you think we have a case? I know its hard to give an opinion either way, but in general?

I should have my attorney read this board as well.
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Old 12-13-2003, 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by GCool
Also, if the vibrations were part of the design, then ALL new Automatic TLs should have had this problem. But, I am not sure this is the case. A lot of people on this forum have said that they do not have the vibrations we seem to have (around 52 mph). So, since all cars do not have the vibrations wouldn't this mean that this is mfg. issue and not a standard thing.
That's the exact question I wanted to know from the District Parts and Service Rep.

His response, "every TL will exhibit this characteristic" The severity of the vibration varies from car to car.

The best way to describe it is using a range of 1 to 5. "1" being very faint vibration, easily missed. To a "5", very pronounced vibration. It could be the way the car was put together. He stated "no 2 cars are put together exactly the same" ???? Don't know if was just blowing hot air?

Don't know yet what the variable is that makes one car's vibration a 1 and another a 5???

That is what Acura should be looking for. I drove a demo TL with the "1", you can barely notice the vibration, but it's there. It is very easily missed. The only reason I noticed it was because I knew eactly what to feel for and at what exact point.

If I were to have purchased that car, I probably wouldn't be on this board today.
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Old 12-13-2003, 05:49 PM
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you are right about the 30 day out of service as well. In CT we have a technical expert who drive casr with lemon law applicant , manufacturing rep. if ther is one and give an opinion based on his extensive experience, board of 3 arbirators votes after hearing from consumer, manufacurer< expert, if expert is asked to evaluate, three repair attempts /30 days out of service are still rquired. it most case
problem is so evident it is not even close.
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Old 12-14-2003, 09:12 PM
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Originally posted by GCool
Also, if the vibrations were part of the design, then ALL new Automatic TLs should have had this problem.
You are right. I sure don't have the vibrations. I wouldn't have bought the car if it was expected to have vibrations at 35 and 50 mph. Even my old Honda Civics didn't vibrate.
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Old 12-14-2003, 11:44 PM
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Re: Got my car back from service.

Originally posted by tallrussian
Just got my car back from the dealer after being there for 2 days for the following items.

...............

2. Memory seats lose settings.
Dealer's response: Could not duplicate the problem. Operating normal at this time.
....................
5. Hood hard to close. Please advise.
Dealer's response: Normal for 2004 TL. No problem found.

I will have to bring the car back Monday to install the missing piece of molding and a new bulb for the "select/reset" button and then I guess I'll have to wait for the TSBs on the memory seats. As for the vibration, it's been getting less and less (I guess as the tires are wearing in as I'm approachin 2000 miles), and it doesn't really bother me that much anymore. ..................................................

Tallrussian,

Answers to your issues:


2) tell them to call the acura tech line on the memory seats (mine did) they will give them a reference number so that when a fix is found, they can let them know (mine did this).

5) Hood hard to close - tell them that there was a running change as they were not adjusted properly (RJCRSX posted that) and it should be adjusted. My dealer did it, and now instead of having to drop the hood from about 3' up, 1' or so does it, plus if it does not latch when I do close the hood, a firm push on top of it does the trick, I never could get it to close that way before.

Hope it helps
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Old 12-14-2003, 11:53 PM
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Re: Re: Got my car back from service.

Originally posted by need4spd

5) Hood hard to close - tell them that there was a running change as they were not adjusted properly (RJCRSX posted that) and it should be adjusted. My dealer did it, and now instead of having to drop the hood from about 3' up, 1' or so does it, plus if it does not latch when I do close the hood, a firm push on top of it does the trick, I never could get it to close that way before.

Hope it helps
need4spd,

A running change? Learning new thing everyday. Thanks.

http://www.acura-tl.com/forum/showth...threadid=65672
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Old 12-15-2003, 06:51 AM
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"You are right. I sure don't have the vibrations. I wouldn't have bought the car if it was expected to have vibrations at 35 and 50 mph. Even my old Honda Civics didn't vibrate."

Why some cars have vibration and some don't? I think it's fairly simple and boils down to - hate to say it - poor design procedure and following evaluation. In a nutshell - when you design something, you have to set your parameters (switching rpm in this case) in such way as to allow for the normal variations in the production process, parts tolerance etc. If your prototype car doesn't have vibration at 1550 rpm and does have it at 1450, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you can set switching point to 1500 rpm. You must have enough statistical data that would tell at what rpm you have enough margin Why some cars have vibration and some don't? I think it's fairly simple and boils down to - hate to say it - poor design procedure and following evaluation. In a nutshell - when you design something you have to set your parameters (switching rpm in this case) in such way as to allow for the normal variation in the production process, parts tolerance etc. If your prototype car doesn't have vibration at 1550 rpm and does have it at 1450, it doesn’t necessarily mean you can set switching threshold to 1500 rpm. You must have enough statistical data that would tell at what rpm you have enough margin (known as 6SIGMA rule) that even under worst-case scenario car would never have vibration. Apparently, Acura engineers disregarded that rule and set switching threshold too close to the “vibration point”. The result - lucky ones don't have the problem, those on the other side of the threshold - do. that even under worst-case scenario car would never have vibration. Apparently, Acura engineers disregarded that rule and set switching threshold too close to the “vibration point”. The result - lucky ones don't have the problem, those on the other side of the threshold - do.
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Old 12-15-2003, 06:58 AM
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Sorry, I messed up my reply while editing and somehow sent it... that's what it should be...

"You are right. I sure don't have the vibrations. I wouldn't have bought the car if it was expected to have vibrations at 35 and 50 mph. Even my old Honda Civics didn't vibrate."

Why some cars have vibration and some don't? I think it's fairly simple and boils down to - hate to say it - poor design procedure and following evaluation. In a nutshell - when you design something, you have to set your parameters (switching rpm in this case) in a such way as to allow for the normal variation in the production process, parts tolerance etc. If your prototype car doesn't have vibration at 1550 rpm and does have it at 1450, it doesn’t necessarily mean you can set switching point to 1500 rpm. You must have enough statistical data (known as 6SIGMA rule) that would tell at what rpm you have enough margin that even under worst-case scenario car would never have vibration. Apparently, Acura engineers disregarded that rule and set switching threshold too close to the “vibration point”. The result - lucky ones don't have the problem, those on the other side of the threshold - do.
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Old 12-15-2003, 10:07 AM
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Originally posted by gregtomash
Sorry, I messed up my reply while editing and somehow sent it... that's what it should be...
Obviously your messaging technique boils down to - hate to say it - poor design procedure and following evaluation.

Sorry, couldn't resist (you know, you can just edit your original message).;
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Old 12-15-2003, 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by gregtomash
Sorry, I messed up my reply while editing and somehow sent it... that's what it should be...

"You are right. I sure don't have the vibrations. I wouldn't have bought the car if it was expected to have vibrations at 35 and 50 mph. Even my old Honda Civics didn't vibrate."

Why some cars have vibration and some don't? I think it's fairly simple and boils down to - hate to say it - poor design procedure and following evaluation. In a nutshell - when you design something, you have to set your parameters (switching rpm in this case) in a such way as to allow for the normal variation in the production process, parts tolerance etc. If your prototype car doesn't have vibration at 1550 rpm and does have it at 1450, it doesn’t necessarily mean you can set switching point to 1500 rpm. You must have enough statistical data (known as 6SIGMA rule) that would tell at what rpm you have enough margin that even under worst-case scenario car would never have vibration. Apparently, Acura engineers disregarded that rule and set switching threshold too close to the “vibration point”. The result - lucky ones don't have the problem, those on the other side of the threshold - do.
That is a great explaination...thanks

By the way, exactly @ 50mph my rpm reads 1500. That's when I feel the engine starting to buzz and vibrate. As I give a little for throttle, eventually passing 55 mph, rpm starts to increase to 1550 and 1600. Once RPM reaches around 1600, vibration seems to go away approaching 60mph.
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Old 12-15-2003, 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by fsconsult
That is a great explaination...thanks

By the way, exactly @ 50mph my rpm reads 1500. That's when I feel the engine starting to buzz and vibrate. As I give a little for throttle, eventually passing 55 mph, rpm starts to increase to 1550 and 1600. Once RPM reaches around 1600, vibration seems to go away (approaching 60mph).

I'm wondering what RPM, for the people not experiencing engine vibrations are when they reach exactly 50mph.

Anyone not experiencing vibrations, can u guys post your RPM when you reach 50mph?

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Old 12-15-2003, 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by fsconsult
That is a great explaination...thanks

By the way, exactly @ 50mph my rpm reads 1500. That's when I feel the engine starting to buzz and vibrate. As I give a little for throttle, eventually passing 55 mph, rpm starts to increase to 1550 and 1600. Once RPM reaches around 1600, vibration seems to go away approaching 60mph.
I have not been able to detect any troublesome vibration that I can't attribute to particular road conditions or to the flat spotting, and on the few times I sense that, it goes away as soon as it warms up (and it occurs at all speeds to one degree or another).

My 50 mph RPMs are right around 1500, and that's the shift point for a smooth acceleration. I think that this will be same on all cars. It's just that for some, the extra load on the engine causes vibration due to different wear on the tires, or differences between compenents and builds.

I would think that the shift point could be adjusted via firmware, as this is an electronically controlled transmission. It would affect gas milage, but they could do it for anyone who complained of the vibration. Probably would not have to go to far up in RPM's. Seems like an easy fix for the minority that have this issue.
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Old 12-15-2003, 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by jgrahamiii
I have not been able to detect any troublesome vibration that I can't attribute to particular road conditions or to the flat spotting, and on the few times I sense that, it goes away as soon as it warms up (and it occurs at all speeds to one degree or another).

My 50 mph RPMs are right around 1500, and that's the shift point for a smooth acceleration. I think that this will be same on all cars. It's just that for some, the extra load on the engine causes vibration due to different wear on the tires, or differences between compenents and builds.

I would think that the shift point could be adjusted via firmware, as this is an electronically controlled transmission. It would affect gas milage, but they could do it for anyone who complained of the vibration. Probably would not have to go to far up in RPM's. Seems like an easy fix for the minority that have this issue.
U know what, if they can change my shift point to around 1600rpm at 50mph, I think this will resove the issue. If I have to sacrifice 2-3 mph because of this, so be it...I'll still be kind of upset that I will get less mpg than most...but oh well...at least the vibrations will go away. By the way, tires have absolutely nothing to do with the engine vibrating (at least in my case). Also validated by the District Parts and Service rep...has nothing to do with tires.
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Old 12-15-2003, 11:49 AM
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Got my car on Saturday and so far I love it.

I have a 6mt, but decided to try and see if I could get this vibration. Shifted to 5th when it would only pull 1,000 RPM. Did not get vibration. It seems to make a different kind of noise (very slight), but pulled easily to speed. It might be in the automatic transmission and not the engine.
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Old 12-15-2003, 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by fsconsult
U know what, if they can change my shift point to around 1600rpm at 50mph, I think this will resove the issue. If I have to sacrifice 2-3 mph because of this, so be it...I'll still be kind of upset that I will get less mpg than most...but oh well...at least the vibrations will go away. By the way, tires have absolutely nothing to do with the engine vibrating (at least in my case). Also validated by the District Parts and Service rep...has nothing to do with tires.
BTW, have you tried shifting manually at closer to 60MPH to see what happens?
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Old 12-15-2003, 03:28 PM
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any one else realize the left tail light pops out when compared to the other one
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Old 12-15-2003, 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by blufox
any one else realize the left tail light pops out when compared to the other one
You meant left tail LED is brighter than the rigth one? If yes, I do have the same issue...
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Old 12-15-2003, 04:01 PM
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my light actually juts out past the body
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Old 12-15-2003, 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by blufox
my light actually juts out past the body
I know you get the new car, did the dealer install anything for you? Such as backup sensor or A-spec package. They may need to remove the rear bumper then install. Will this hurt your tail light?
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Old 12-15-2003, 04:30 PM
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no didn't get either installed (maybe im the only one with this prob well ill need to stop by the dealer)
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Old 12-15-2003, 06:40 PM
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no "problem" by any means, but an interesting observation: all the windows had fogged up and i could see round circles in several places on the window. I presume this is from robotic suction cups that installed the windows.
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Old 12-16-2003, 08:58 AM
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Originally posted by timnguyen9
21. Noise when pulling away when car is cold and normal acceleration, sounds like a flap is being actuated, but felt throughout car, lasts less than a second (other complaint on this) – dealer did not find.

From others on this board, this is just the ABS performing diagnostics. IT IS NORMAL.
And the TL isn't the only car that does it...my Infiniti does the exact same thing.
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Old 12-16-2003, 06:08 PM
  #273  
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Originally posted by MattB
And the TL isn't the only car that does it...my Infiniti does the exact same thing.

My 2004 Maxima did the same..

Smitty
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Old 12-16-2003, 10:17 PM
  #274  
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Funny. You should hear the NSX ABS pump kick in every now and then. Hondas. So very similar and yet so very different.
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Old 12-17-2003, 10:23 AM
  #275  
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Originally posted by RJC RSX
The front passenger door is missing the small panel that fits inside the handle to cover the door screws on my car.
Mine is missing too...
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Old 12-17-2003, 10:43 AM
  #276  
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Originally posted by Black_Pride
Mine is missing too...
I was finding five pieces of panels, plastic nails, and node in the first day. They're all different, and the dealer has no idea what the hell they're. One of them is what you guys talked about, the little panel for the passenger side door handle's.

But I still have no idea what other four picecs are...
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Old 12-17-2003, 12:08 PM
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has anyone noticed that there is a click sound every time you break
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Old 12-17-2003, 09:01 PM
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I have the braking click but its not every time.

Has anyone noticed the 'CLANK' when you put it in REVERSE?
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Old 12-17-2003, 09:32 PM
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I have neither click nor clank.

Mike
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Old 12-17-2003, 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by Black_Pride
I have the braking click but its not every time.

Has anyone noticed the 'CLANK' when you put it in REVERSE?
Is it normal? I remember the owner manual or somewhere ever said your brake would have some sounds... Need to see it again...

Mine does have clank... I only can hear that while in the garage...
As long as it's not occurred in each stop, it should be fine?


P. 188.

If the brake pads need replacing, you will hear a distinctive, metallic screeching sound when you apply the brake pedal. If you do not have the brake pads replaced, they will screech all the time. It is normal for the brakes to occasionally squeal or squeak when you apply them.
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