ironviet

So if anyone has any input that would be great.

I just got back from the dealership and had a pretty bad experience. I went in because I experienced some noise from the Brembo's and under hard braking the steering wheel would vibrate. This would only happend if I was braking from speeds of 70 mph or faster. The Brembo's would also make some noise under light braking so I saw that there was a TSB that should solve the issue. Well since it was in I asked if they could find the rattle in my interior also.

After a 30 minutes of waiting which is pretty fast, the service manager comes sits down and tells me that the tech gave him a list of things I needed to replace before so the issues can go away. Their claim was that all four brake pads were aftermarket. I know for sure the rears have never been touched since the car was purchased. The fronts I had a friend do them. He works at Midas so maybe he didn't use the oem pads. Then they tell me the rotors were warped and I needed new ones. I respond with "Are you kidding me?" He said the rotors were warped because of the aftermarket pads. I then respond with "Unless I drive like a maniac in the city, it was impossible because I just got the pads on and the rotors turned which a warped rotor wasn't detected then and I have only had 50 miles on since saturday." So then he tells me then they can turn them again but he was hesitant in responding about the rear pads because they are oem.

Then they tell me that I need to replace all four tires. Their reason is because the steel belts have shifted and not aligned right. His justification was that I have to have oem tires on because the car was designed with a specific tire and the suspension was set up with those tires only. After hearing this, I nearly smashed my laptop across his head but no I knew I justed needed to leave before I make a scene. If this were true and that if somehow the belts did shift, what's the likely hood that all four were ruined within 1k miles.

After hearing all this I wanted to know want they were suggesting and charging. Here's the list:
4- new tires
4 balancing and mouting of those tires
4 wheel alignment
4 new rotors
4 set of brake pads
4 charges of turning the rotors
4 installation of pads
total charges near $2500

This dealership is Piazza Acura of Ardmore.

Did I screw up majorly since I didn't use oem tires and the front pads I have to check if they are oem or not, but could my decisions lead me to this scenario for them to fix the vibrating steering wheel at 75 mph and brake noise?

I am in Philadelphia if that helps.

davenlei

It sounds pretty shady to me. I had a repair shop give me a laundry list or 'needed repairs' once.
I told them that I am not a fool and to pull my car up front so I can leave. They said the tires are off the car and I have to wait two hours for the mechanic to come back to put them on. I told the service advisor to get one of the other techs to do it and he told me that they can't work on each others car for liability reasons. I then said if my car is not put back together in 15 minutes, I will go back there and do it myself and hopefully do not get hurt on their property. My car was brought around in 10 minutes with me watching them like a hawk the whole time.
I promptly went to another dealer and got my brake job, etc. done for 1/3 of what the other dealer wanted and he told me the first dealer must be mistaken because over half of the things they wanted to do were not needed.

Go to another dealer.

lembowski

iTrader: (1)

Why do they need to "turn" 4 new rotors?

KJSmitty

Welcome ironviet,

Well, sounds like your dealer is like the majority,, looking to make an enormous profit!!

As a reference I was a mechanic at a very large dealership for 8+ years. Just so you know, I don't like dealerships at all. I haven't found nor used a dealership that wasn't near fraudulent since my days as an employee. Warranty work is all they get from me.

First, did your friend at Midas actually turn/resurface your rotors. IE - actually place them on a lathe and cut the surface area etc..? How long has it been since you replaced the pads - 50 miles? How old are your tires? How many miles on your TL?

Knowing the above would better help us with the discussion. Due to the fact the front brakes were touched/changed to non OEM pads does eliminate the TSB - even Acura wouldn't cover warranty due to it being non factory/dealer work at this point etc..

Bottom line, take everything the dealer told you and raise the Bull-Shit flag. Take each item individually and methodically. IE first known issue from your description is warped rotors. Even if your friend did actually "resurface" them, if braking causes vibration then they are warped. Double check the front pads as well to ensure they are "good" aftermarket/oem replacements.
Next question would be: are the rear brake pads bad/warn where replacement is necessary?? Rear brake rotor warpage is rare due to distribution of braking effort etc.. Not to mention rear warped rotors unless extremely warped are rarely felt while braking.
Tires - Answer these question: Does the car vibrate badly all the time at highway speeds or only when braking?? Are the tires exhibiting strange wear patterns - and does the car pull to one side or the other while driving straight on a level road?? If vibrating only when braking, don't mess with them unless they are warn and in need of replacement anyway. If the belts had shifted like your dealer mentioned you would be having much greater issues than vibration during braking.
Finally, having non oem tires/brake pads is not an issue - it's just an item the dealer can use to fabricate a lie....

More info required here.

Good luck

Thorin78

Wow, ardmore, didn't know they were gauging people this badly.

I went thru Piazza Acura of West Chester when I lived in Philly for all my services. I even had them comp me 4 new Bridgestone LS-Z tires and that's not OEM. I would try to take it there and see what they would do for you. The guys are nicer there I think. When I had a problem with after market suspension installed not by them they even helped to fix it for me free of charge.

Maybe it's just Ardmore Acura.

Bob289

Yea, sound like some BS too me. Go to another dealer. About your slow braking problem it might be warped rotors. I had the same problem on my 96 Prelude when it came to slow light braking it would rub and grind. I had them resurfaced and the problem went away. Good luck and dont take no bull.

Tripnbeats

dude get new front rotors n front pads the rear ones dont go unless ur suspension is throwing something off....I had a lot of probs but then i got the aspec setup and dropped the car off at acura of manhattan 2 weeks went by and they fixed everysingle problem with the car total out of pocket was 800

Tripnbeats

and what they told u sounds maaaaaaaad shady

Andrew McCarthy

The dealer is slightly more shady than the misleading statement "Went for a TSB but dealer wanted $2500"

KilroyR1

Lots of people get warped rotors from having their lug nuts installed with an air wrench. Lug nuts are frequently over-torqued. Also, when rotors are turned, there is less material to dissipate heat. Thus rotors that have been turned are more likely to warp from excessive heat.

All-in-all, it sounds like Greedy Dealer B.S.

chill_dog

Aftermarket pads and tires are not a problem and will not cause any problems, provided you are driving reasonably...heck, even if you were driving like an idiot, they would do any more damage than OEM's would do under the same circumstances.

Take the car back to your buddy at Midas and have them look at it (I'm guessing if he's a friend he won't try to get one over on you). The rotors could be warped if you didn't bed your new brakes properly, but that's about it.

Desert_TL

I know in general stealerships are pretty crooked. But let's take a step back and look at this objectively.

• Pretty much everyone on this board knows that most dealers will make a stink if you put aftermarket tires on your vehicle and then try to bring it in for some kind of tire-related warranty work (anything having to do with tire, wheel, suspension, braking, alignment, etc etc). I mean, just put yourself in the dealer's shoes for a second. Some guy comes in complaining of braking problems and the first thing you notice are aftermarket pads and aftermarket tires. Would you be compelled to fix the problem for free? People around here know that you put aftermarket brakes and tires on your vehicle AT YOUR OWN RISK.
• You seem pretty confident that your friend who installed the pads and resurfaced your rotors did a perfect job. But doesn't it seem like a little more than a coincidence that you start noticing brake problems "50 miles" after your friend installs new brakes? If he didn't resurface the rotor perfectly, then steering wheel vibration while braking at high speed would certainly be a normal symptom. Again, put yourself in the dealer's shoes. Some guy comes in complaining of noisy braking and warped rotors, then says that his friend just installed new non-oem pads and resurfaced the rotor, and the dealer is supposed to fix that for free?

Now having said all that, it still seems like the dealer is tryign to dick you around a little and/or didn't get the accurate story from the tech. He says all 4 pads are non-oem but you say that the rears are stock so clearly they were dicking around with you on that. Also I think he was BSing about the tires' belts being misaligned or whatever; I'm calling bullcrap on that one. It certainly wouldn't hurt to try another dealer but don't get your hopes up that they will fix your braking problem for free considering you have non-oem pads, non-oem tires, and they didn't turn the rotors.

mike03a3

Although "warped rotors" are an often cited cause of wheel vibration under braking, that is seldom the actual cause.

Read this article: http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml

Over the years I have been careful to bed new brakes with good success.

drdug27

oh man my car is at piazza of ardmore right now and i only have a 1000 miles on it.

ironviet

Thx for all the fast responses.

The reason I recently had my brakes done this weekend was due to vibration and uneven

wear on the rotor front left rotor. Vibration was also transmitted through the pedal too. Watching my friend do it, he turned the rotors with the rotors still mounted on the car. I'm assuming he did this because he told he did, and I observed the rotors spinning for several minutes with the tires off. After the brake job, the car brakes smoothly but at speeds of 75-80 mph the steering wheel would vibrate now. After this, I got the tires balanced hoping the vibration would stop while driving at those speeds as well as stopping from those speeds.

My car now has 46k on it.
So to answer -- Does the car vibrate badly all the time at highway speeds or only when braking? The vibration is only felt through the steering wheel at speeds of 75-80 mph. If I brake from that speed, the vibration is felt immediately but fades away almost instantly.
At first I figured one of the wheels were out of balanced but I took that out with a balancing. The vibration isn't violent and if I look at the steering wheel, I could barely tell it vibrates. Only when I hold the wheel can I tell. If I put a finger on the wheel I could feel a pulse.

The car does not pull to any side during any circumstance (braking, or cruising). I am trying to get more info so that when I go back to another dealer I would pre-empt them on my experience and that if what was told to me was true, I could at least dispute with them on why they are wrong.

Maybe I'm taking this way out of proportion but after hearing the other SA's tell other customers that they have to have such and such done that I set myself up for BS from them no matter what they told me but when I saw in writing a total charge of $2400 without tax I was kind of pissed.

ironviet

I'm sure you'll be fine if your car wasn't in for a problem. Plus at your mileage, they can't treaten you with anything.

I heard them tell one customer that the 45k is a "Major Tune-Up" that they can't avoid. Unless I'm wrong I think they do flushes and filter change and visually inspect parts. To me that isn't a major tune-up but I could be wrong.


Good luck!

drdug27

what year and how many miles do you have??

KJSmitty

Yes, I myself have read that before.... However, in 12 years of turning rotors, literally probably 5-10 sets per week on average, NON were due to friction material being deposited on the rotor. The statement pertaining to "warped" rotors/vibration: "seldom the cause" couldn't be more false (more like 95% warped, 5% other).
Factory brake rotors warp, why they warp can be many different things like over or inappropriate torquing of lug nuts, dirty hubs, heavy braking/high heat facilitated by-and the most common - just poor metal/design. I have NEVER seen brake/friction material deposited on a rotor in a stock/oem application. Never - but I'll keep looking.


As for the thread title being "shady".... Far from it. He went in thinking the TSB should cover his issues, yet came out with an estimate for $2500. The estimate could have been fraud or legit, either way it was more than he was remotely expecting.

Cheers

ironviet

2004 w/ 46k miles.

Thx KJSmitty for the support, I wasn't trying to be misleading in anyway.

Crook

Ironviet,

Did you remember to keep your tires on the same side when the front brake work was done? It's especially important if you have directional tires. Changing the direction of previously rotated tires could shift the steel belts and cause noisy tires with a little vibration. You'll also start seeing uneven wear pattern on the tread after a few thousand miles.

CJB

I bought my 05 Tl from Piazza of Reading.Their service department has been honest and professional.Give them a call and make an appointment . It can't hurt, except for loss time. Ardmore seems to be shoveling the BS quite well.
I'd go to Reading, don't even mention being at Ardmore.

CJB

ironviet

Hmmm, I didn't check that. I do have directionals and never checked that. I guess I'll check in a little bit.

Desert_TL

After reading your response I think it's more clear that the dealer is just trying to dick around with you.

I think it's very possible that your directional tires were rotated improperly and that could cause the problem. It's also very possible that it was just a poor balancing job and the tires are still out of balance. I don't think it's a brake problem unless the pads are rubbing against the rotor even while your foot isn't on the pedal. The reason why I say the tires could still just be out of balance is because I've had balance jobs does on my cars a lot and sometimes (20% of the time) the tires have worse balance than before they did the "balancing". Try taking your tires in for another balancing - at a different shop if you can - and see if that fixes the problem.

ironviet

Yeah I just checked the direction of the tires and they are fine. I think your suggestion could solve my problems since most of my issues occur at a certain speed and no other time. The squeek though is something else I need to manage or just deal with it til the pads and rotors bed. Thx

StYLeZz101

i never trusted my dealership...and what made me hate them more was when i took my car in for the 30K service, the tech said he was going to road test the car and was goin to call me which he didnt but i didnt really mind, but i was like if he actually did do it he would have realized that my alignment is wayyyyyyyy off and nothing was ever mentioned about this...not that i would have let them do it n e way but i thought it was pretty funny how this was something that wasnt even addressd by the tech, as soon as u start drivin the car...its like damnnnn this is really bad

LaCostaRacer

I agree. It also could be that you had your tires balanced properly but somehow one of the weights came off causing one of your wheels to become unbalanced. That happened to me once so I know it's possible.

ndabunka

NONE of this is ture. Was he trying to play a joke on you? Belts shifting in the tires? Really? No freakign way. Escalate this to his management or acll Acura service directly.

s2ktaxi

complain to American Honda. Dealers like this are what gives any car a bad rep.

MorganPerez

I read this, and it angers me, how these dealerships do this to try and make money.

The issue with the tires would be dealt with the tire dealer thru that manufacturer. The brakes, well, rotors can be turned, and easily that should fix the problem. But I will tell you that some of those "master stop" pads, or what ever they use, are made out of a very hard material, and they are not good for the rotors. Its a good idea to use OEM brake parts, I agree there, but as for the replacement of the rotors, bs, unless they are really thin to begin with from the factory.

I think that they are trying to screw you over, and what I would do, is go to a honda dealer, I have done this myself, and have recieved much lower prices, like the 30k, for 335, as opposed to 500 at the Acura dealer.

If they try to pull BS, I would call them out on it, and then I would write a nice letter to the dealer and CC it to Acura, they will change their shady BS real quick.

Just some ideas, man, what a joke that place is.

ironviet

So I'm looking for ways to contact Honda and Acura of America and there isn't even an email option which sucks so I will call and see where this takes me. I just hate going through the headache.

Pat D

Wow - I dealt with Ardmore Acura ONCE - after they dented my week old MDX, I never went back. They are the absolute WORST to deal with and I wouldn't advise my worst enemy to go there.

I DID go back because they had the best price on a TL at the time. Got a written quote for the TL, and promptly took it to another dealer who matched it.

DO NOT USE ARDMORE ACURA!

drdug27

oh great im dealing with ardmore as we speak...can i ask what dealer you deal with now??

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

DONT WALK>>>>RUN OUT OF THERE! They are gonna rip you off big time...and what you already told em gives em enough that they can void the warrantee. They would say...hey..talk to your buddy...hes the one that did the brakes...not us. That technical bulletin would ONLY do you good if you went there FIRST...not after you tried to remedy it on our own and having the brakes worked on elsewhere. Sucks...but thats the way it works.

01tl4tl

Acura Customer Care is at 1-800-382-2238 x 5
open 6am -5pm pacific time
You can speak to a real human who sends an email thru the system to all levels of managment- including your service manager
That gets action in a hurry!

As far as turning the rotors on the car- there have been some reports of problems with that method. I would pull the rotors and put them on a standard lathe and check for runout- thats the only way to tell for sure

Midas would not be my choice anytime- especially if a friend works there- just shoddy parts- why do you think they warranty them forever- you will be coming back- and will buy more stuff too. Same thing as brakes from autozone

Do call Acura and detail the entire story to them- follow up with copies of estimate to them

Amazing things happen when corporate gets involved
Always mention to the dealer and acura that you belong to acurazine

ironviet

So here is what happened when I called Acura. The agent concluded that I take it to another dealer because in these circumstances, they can only go by what the service dept is recommending. Even though these may or may not be what is needed, Acura cannot verify the vehicles needs because they are not there and the dealers are the eyes and ears of corporate.

Needless to say this doesn't suprise me because every company that I have dealt with has major issues except Audi and BMW (I'm not saying their service doesn't suck to others but from my experiences, they handle it best but I'm not sure I actually like visiting the sevice the dept frequently).

Here is my list of my car problems and what were fixed. I have bad karma I guess.
-'02 Audi A4 3.0-- 3 bad turn rear turn signal bulbs
-'03 Nissan 350Z--2 gas tanks (valve would not let me put gas in),dome light assembly, 1 tranny, a set of synchros, 4 radios, 2 window modules, ball-joint, rear wiper, headlights, 5 alignments in 11 months, window grease streaks on both sides.
-'03 Audi A4 1.8t--3 tail light bulbs, 2 tweeters
-'03 E46 BMW M3- 5 hid ballasts, several xenon bulbs, taillights, sunroof module, broken connecting rod
-'04 Acura TL--nothing except for this recent steering wheel vibration
-'07 Totyota FJ Cruiser-- nothing yet

It's a losing battle for me!

geekybiker

Try find a shop that has a hunter balance rig. They're supposed to be great. If it vibrates before you hit the brake, its more than likely a poor balance job. If you know anyone who autocrosses or does track days, you might have them hit up people in their club for shop recommendations. Typically the racers now the competent tire shops.

FWIW tires as a cause for anything is complete BS. As long as you're using the same size as OEM. Its possible your buddy messed up turning the rotors, but unlikely the pads themselves would cause vibration. And unevenness in the pad would be noticable immediately and fade quicly. Just make sure they are bedded in properly.

Sounds like the typical dealer BS. Second opinion FTW.

Pat D

I bought the TL from Sussman in Jenkintown - however, the salesman I dealt with was absolutely HORRENDOUS and I really wouldn't recommend them for sales. They agreed and I have in writing that they would send me the updated NAVI dvd for my car, since it was available to the public when I bought. 3 months later, they said they're still waiting for it.

For service, I haven't been back luckily. So right now, I'm using my the street out front of the house for oil changes and such. We had a shop in the family for 25 years, so for the exception of warranty work, I never go to the dealer.

ironviet

So now here's is the conslusion and follow-up to the first original post.

I made a call to Acura customer care and made a complaint-- It was of no use but now I have documentation

Customer Service survey called me-- I blasted them and told them my story that I gave them 1 on a scale of 1-10 10 being best. The only thing that got higher than a 1 was length of time in dealership which I gave a 8 since my car went in pretty fast and came out even faster!

So the SA calls me back and wanted to know why I had a complaint. Was he serious? He told me that he put down on the necessary changes that I need to do to get rid of the vibration. Then now he tells me that ALL my freakin tires were feathering from the shifted belts. My blood began to boil because I stepped out of my car and looked at the tires and they are so new it's a shame he's still sticking to the story. Then I asked him about his claims that my brake pads were after-market and that I would need to replace them. Then he says that he only said the front's were after market and not the rears. Then why the hell did he want me to replace all four? His conslusion question was why did I have to give him bad mark on the survey when he specifically wrote down on the ticket all my necessary things that they would have to replace for me. My response was "Hey don't worry, I made complaints to Acura corporate and all of the forums that I belong to so they could know how good you guys are, have a nice day!"

Forums I belong to:
Acura World
Acurazine
Audizine
Audiworld
M3forum
Bimmerworld
FJCruiserforum
MY350z
350ZMotoring
350ZForums
E46Fanatics
350Ztech
SuperHonda
Temple of Vtec
6speedonline

berite100

thats funny. he didnt call to kiss your ass and try to make you happy but to argue with you? damn you should call back acura and let them know what the SA did afterwards. thats just as bad as the first time they tried to bend you over.

ironviet

So today I get another call from someone at the dealership and her name is Mary Ellen. I told her my story and experience. She was suprised that the tech recommended so many parts to replace. So now she will pass this on to the service manager and he wil further explain the situation.

I have read the Magnuson-Moss Act but I am not sure if it pertains to me. Under the act it protects customers from warrantors who want to deny service and void warranties for aftermarket parts.
Interpretations under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Contained within these rules and regulations is Section 700.10, which states:
No warrantor may condition the continued validity of a warranty on the use of only authorized repair service and/or authorized replacement parts for non-warranty service and maintenance. For example, provisions such as, "This warranty is void if service is performed by anyone other than an authorized 'ABC' dealer and all replacement parts must be genuine 'ABC' parts," and the like, are prohibited where the service or parts are not covered by the warranty.

In my case, tires, brakes, and rotors are wear and tear items they do not warranty in most conditions. So now they bare the burden of proving that each item the want me to replace is the culprit of my complaints which is vibration in the steering wheel at 75mph and rattle which they didn't care to look at since it was never addressed.