Chad05TL

Absolutely. It will get more excited. Hehe

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

No. I assume that the check was made at the battery terminals, but if you want what the ecu sees, pick up the reading at the ecu.

dzionny_dzionassi

yep, battery terminals

dzionny_dzionassi

voltage reading via obd:
AC on 13.6 (every accessory off)
AC off 13.8 ( radio on (amp in trunk), heated seats on, defroster on, lights on)
Tomorrow will be 100f in Chicago on my way home, i will do scan via obd.

dzionny_dzionassi

no voltage change during hesitation, just when you floor it voltage drops to 13.2

I hate cars

Back to this issue, the two of us that were having this problem also noted that the car ran ok once in vtec. One of the things that happen in vtec is it goes a little richer. The basic feeling before the battery replacement was a very lean mixture. I think somehow the lack of voltage was throwing the ECU off; the target AF was being met but the reading was inaccurate... or so that's my guess.

EvilJoker

was wondering the same thing

I hate cars

I thought this would be a good time to update. This week has had temps from 101 to 108 degrees for the past 5-6 days. It's as if the car doesn't even realize it. My temperature reading on the MID has been --- for most of the week. The car is a little down on power as it should be but absolutely no sign of surging and no huge loss of power. It's almost like it's gotten better over time. On days like these I used to borrow the GF's car sometimes because mine was just awful to drive. The recent race posted in the kills section against a new A4 was done on a 100 degree day and previously that Audi would have left me like a Civic.

I'm ready to call this a huge success. I've been running the AC at full blast and hitting stop and go traffic. I haven't been abusing it but a few times I've blasted off a little quicker than normal from a light just to have to slow down again quickly for the next light. Usually this was a death sentence but no change now. I used to drive along with the AC on but when I saw a red light I would turn the AC off and start downshifting so that it would go into fuel cut to help cool the engine off. Completely unnecessary anymore.

So there's still a normal loss of power but it doesn't feel like the car has one leg in the junk yard anymore.

BukvaMan

i can only confirm the same thing... still going strong. This car does suffer from heat a little more then other cars but the way it drives now i dont see any problems with it. No hesitation and no surging...knock on wood

I hate cars

That's great to hear. Do you usually drive with your headlights on in the daytime?

hofiveo

http://www.madelectrical.com/newstuff/

Found this site a few years ago when building a mustang. One Ford magazine had an article about moving the battery to the trunk and used this company's kit to install it. I had the same engine and car so it made sense to do the same. Everything works better with the proper voltage. Here is the article from 5.0 magazine

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...IoERPNfW0sIIRQ

Read the article above about how MAD Electrical tried to change NHRA rules for battery disconnect, very intresting read. Mad's website is very informative also.

Going to try to do the same to the TL

BukvaMan

Only when it rains...otherwise I dont have the habit really.
Why do you ask ??

gwiffer

iTrader: (7)

Anyone have an opinion on this?

I've been reading that AGM batteries should be given a "bulk-charge" at 14.2-15V (my Accord alternator puts out 14.5, according to the manual; I expect the TL alt to be similar). However, the required AGM maintenance voltage is lower than the voltage required for a FLA (flooded lead acid) battery; this is set by the alternator/regulator. I've come to the conclusion that without modifying the alternator/regular set, AGM batteries might not be the best option for our cars.

The problem arises when the vehicle is driven on long trips, after the battery has been fully charged by the alternator and the regulator has switched over to its maintenance setting at the incorrect higher voltage. Even though AGM batteries are not liquid filled, this higher voltage can heat up and boil off some of the water contained in the fiberglass mat inside the battery. If a significant portion of the water is changed to water vapor or oxygen/hydrogen gas through electrolysis, the battery will fail prematurely. There is no way to add additional water to the battery since they are "sealed," except for their extremely small venting capability.

I hate cars

There are millions of them in use with no reported issues. I just got back from a 4hr trip to Vegas, no issues. Most of my trips are 2 miles to work and back each day. No discharge problems like the other batteries from such a short trip. I occasionally drive it to work instead of catching the vanpool and no issues from the 45 minute trip.

I doubt there will ever be a problem. My car still runs better than it ever has in the summertime. It has an amazingly long runtime with my aftermarket stereo with the engine off. There's been absolutely no reason to believe there is or ever will be a problem with these batteries. If by some crazy chance there is a problem, the 4yr free replacement and 100 month prorated warranty will take care of me.

vr6vdub

A glimmer of hope! I'll swap batteries this weekend and report back with my results.

Weavz

My issue was resolved with a new App sensor. (I did a mass airflow at the same time.)

Chad05TL

How can you test it in hot weather when even Dallas is 53 degrees this morning. thats cold.

Chad05TL

This video actually mentions a degraded performance if you can understand his english. But it seems you would get a code if the app sensor was malfunctioning. But getting a code relys upon other systems to flash it to ya. haha if ya know what i'm sayn.
But then again, you would think a surging idle or loss of power would generate a code also from some defective part too!
Ironically, I've never seen even a little flash from my check engine light or whatever it is.. I have no idea if it is a check engine light, or an SES (service engine soon) or maybe it puts a message up on the notification window, or maybe it sends me an email..or a text? Who knows, because i've never seen it come on. haha which makes me wonder.. does it even work!

Wacker

I agree with this statement somewhat. I just don't think it is just a voltage issue. I think it is the combination of voltage and amperage. I used to work for Kenworth (big rig trucks) as an outside parts sales rep. About 5-7 years ago, some of the truck manufacturers started putting AGM batteries into their trucks. The warranty claims on AGM batteries for the first couple of years was through the roof. Not because of the batteries, but because of mechanics not being educated on the new technology. When these problems started arising, I had to take a class put on by Exide Technologies so to better educate and assist my customers.

Big trucks are different than cars in that many parts are the same from different manufacturers. One style alternator may fit 10-15 different make and model trucks for a several year time span. Most fleets will only keep one or two models of alt in stock to maintain their entire fleet. The newer trucks, with the AGM batteries, had a more advanced charging system that was designed for the new batteries. When the mechanics would change the alt out, they would replace it with the older style and COOK these batteries and the same issue when the put the newer batteries in the older trucks. The shops also had to replace their battery chargers with more modern "float" style chargers for the same reason.

AGM has its benefits (vibration resistance being the main one), but its main downfall is the lack of liquid for internal temperature control. A standard lead acid battery has plenty of liquid capacity to help maintain temperature. In the same way a cooling system on a car works, when you decrease the fluid capacity, you decrease the cooling efficiency. When you heat and cool the lead plates in the batteries, they warp over time. When the warp, they touch each other and short out internally. This is amplified in the higher CCA batteries due to thinner plates for more surface area to contact the acid. This internal shorting wreaks havoc on modern 12v electronics in vehicles since a battery is not only for energy storage, but it is also a filter or buffer in the system that helps buffer the highs and lows of the output of an alternator and helps filter electronic noise. For example: I had one customer spend over $7,000.00 troubleshooting an issue with his eaton autoshift 18 speed transmission. He ended up replacing the trans only to realize it was a battery that was shorted internally that caused the whole problem. It tested with good voltage, but when the battery was electronically analyzed it had very unpredictable and inconsistent results with every test.

Granted, these trucks are driven hundreds of thousands of miles a year, so the results are going to be amplified with them. But the same principle should apply with our cars. Since our alternators are not extremely high amperage units, we "should" be fine for a number of years, but we cannot expect to get the number of years service out of these batteries as the traditional.

****DISCLAIMER**** THE ABOVE IS MY OPINION. IT IS BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE IN A FIELD THAT I HAVE BEEN OUT OF FOR OVER 3 YEARS. OPINIONS ARE LIKE ASS HOLES. WE ALL HAVE ONE AND THEY ALL STINK.

I hate cars

I'm glad you mentioned the higher CCA batteries are more susceptible to failure. I keep saying this.

However, these batteries usually last longer in automotive use than regular batteries. There are no reports of any problems. The 4yr free replacement, 100 month prorated warranty should be enough for anyone who is scared of getting one. The 130a alternator of these cars is not 1/4 of what the diesel industry uses. There are reviews all over the internet of these batteries lasting 8+ years which goes with what one industry expert told me. They would not have the best warranty if they weren't expected to last longer than the average battery. To say you can't expect as much life as a regular battery is just wrong.

Wacker

In an application where these batteries are original equipment I will agree with you. 8 years is totally believable. As a matter of fact, i would expect more. I have owned vehicles with traditional batteries that have lasted that long. Do you have quantitive evidence that this is true with AGM in our cars? I'm not trying to get into a dick swinging contest, like my disclaimer said I am basing my opinion on MY experience which is AGM in commercial applications. In an OE environment I have heard of reports on over 1,000,000 miles on a set of original AGM batteries in a commercial truck. That is irrefutable evidence that when used in the proper application they WILL last. But I have seen with my own eyes, that used in a NON-OE application they can fry inside of 6 months. I think the heavy electrical load you have in your car with your sound system may actually help yours last longer. It lessons the chance of over charging.

I hate cars

This is why I'm beginning to stop sharing information around here. I'm tired of having to refute all of the BS that's out there. There's no issue with this battery in a car, it's been out for many years, we would have heard something by now. I have not run it for millions of miles. I have run it for over 6 months, it has not fried in under 6 months as you claim, in fact the engine still turns over as fast as the day I bought the battery. The TL has a 130a alternator and it has little headroom in stock form. My GN has a 120a factory alternator and pulls just a few amps during the day. The TL uses over half of the alternator's capacity at any given time.

I could care less what goes on in the commercial diesel industry, it does not apply here. 1,000,000 miles is not the same in a truck that drives for hours on end every single day. That would take over 30 years in a car. We start our cars and stop our cars several times a day. We drive between 2-40 miles a day for work. We spend a lot of time at idle. We run our stereos with the engine off. Get out of here with your diesel parts manager crap. You have no personal experience, you have heard stories of others' experiences in a commercial application. I on the other hand am actually running an AGM battery instead of sitting on the sidelines. The internet is full of negativity. If there was a problem with AGM batteries not lasting it would be everywhere. Just about every review praises their longevity. So instead of talking about something you have no experience with, try it for yourself in a CAR. You are attempting to create a problem that does not exist.

I hate cars

I think it's time to have the mods clean this thread up. It is for a very specific problem that a handful of TL owners experience, not an AGM vs all debate. If anyone wants to argue about batteries and imaginary problems, start another thread.

Wacker

I have never seen anybody miss a point so bad in my life. You do realize I was agreeing with you right? Slow down and read and don't be so quick to get defensive.

How exactly did you equate sales rep to a diesel manager anyway? Is that another example of our lack of reading comprehension?

Wacker

By the way IHC. I am running AGM in my TL also. So much for an enlightening discussion. That doesn't seem to be possible for people that feel they are the only person in the world with any automotive experience.

http://www.battery-usa.com/Delphi_AGM.htm

Majofo

Wacker, we don't like you because you kill innocent Dillos.

Also, that AGM is Delphi.. although Delphi was widely known as a reputable mfg. I will say that they have the contract for Honda batteries.. the shittiest battery I've ever owned. Delphi is so big that I'm not sure which segment actually builds the Honda battery, but I probably won't buy another one if I can help it. I didn't even bother cashing in on the 10 year warranty, decided to replace it out of pocket. Unfortunately I didn't know about the Sears DH AGM.. I'm on a cheap Duralast Gold battery.. Not great, but worlds better than OE.

+1 on the Optimas.. They used to be great, then they sold out. They sell 2 for 1 out of San Antone.. still not worth it.

This is an interesting thread, I would have never thought about it being control system related. If it is, it seems like regulating the input and having a backup source could help. There are several chips out there and simple ones we could make that may tell us a bit more regarding the overall system. I'll chime in later to see what we might be able to do with our setup.

Anyways.. IHC.. Vegas.. March.. bunch of guys are there right now partying. Couldn't make it, on the plus side though, partied with Ernie Reyes Jr. last night

Wacker

I agree about Delphi. It's the lowest bidder thing that fucks things up. I got it for free from a good friend who works for JCI (Johnson Controls) automotive division. They make Optima, Diehard, Duralast and hundreds of other brands of batteries. He took it in on an exchange of some sort. It was brand new and the Tl's battery was showing signs of fatigue so I said what the hell.

It's funny you bring up the optima brand though. We discussed optima at length the last time I saw him. I made the same comment about how they "used to be good". He went on to make a very good point. When optima first came out it was pretty high dollar and for the most part went on older vehicles ie. hot rods and race vehicles. These vehicles do not have high voltage or high amperage charging systems. So optima was perfect. As production went up and cost went down the battery became more main stream. In the higher amperage charging systems of the more modern vehicles, there are FAR more failures. He mentioned that the #1 failure though is from people trying to put a rapid charge on the batteries when they run them dead. If an AGM battery is run dead, it MUST be brought back up to charge slowly. This is where modern cars are a downfall for these batteries. These charging systems output power on demand. Meaning, if the system is fully charged, the alt will output less amperage. But in a discharge situation (like a jump start) these alternators will put out upwards of 110% of rated output in order to charge the discharged battery. In essence a "rapid charge" that is known to kill AGM batteries.

Yes IHC. I have a good friend that works for the company that made the battery that is in your car. Of course that is probably another strike against me in the experience department because everything I have learned from him over the years that is battery related is more than likely a lie or imaginary. I should have him contact you so you can set him strait.

Wacker

I guess the point that is have so successfully failed to make (and I apologize for that) is that YES these batteries KICK ASS. In a perfect world where we drive our cars to work every day and NEVER run the battery dead they could honestly last up to 15 years. Who here never runs a battery dead? In my case..twice mind you..the wife comes home and is on her call phone, turns the car off but leaves the ignition in acc so to have some light tunes in the background during her conversation. She gets out of the car and never turns the shit off. Knowing what I know about these batteries, I put the Battery Tender on it to bring it up to charge. I do however feel that she has taken YEARS off the life of the battery by taking it to a full discharge as I am not running a deep cycle.

We have all run batteries dead...leaving trunks open...doors ajar...tunes on in the shop while working...lights on. I just advise everyone not to jump your vehicle off if you are running an AGM battery...or ANY battery honestly. Otherwise your car may eventually exhibit the exact same symptoms that prompted IHC to start this (very informative) thread.

I hate cars

How many times are you going to reply to yourself? I understood you perfectly and I don't agree with you. This thread is about a severe drivabilty problem a few TLs experience in the summer. My TL had this problem on the factory battery and with the Optima and it got worse every summer. The car had this problem before either battery was ever run dead and jumpstarted. I've been meaning to buy a charger for this battery just in case it ever gets run down and I have the luxury of charging it. I stated in my first post than an AGM battery is likely not required for these particular TLs to run right.

It looks like you've changed your tune from these batteries getting fried under steady state conditions to only when discharged.

Let's leave it at this. There are absolutely no problems with AGM in a car period. On average they have a longer life than traditional batteries IN A CAR. The warranty will ensure if you ever have to buy another you definitely got your money's worth. If one of these hypothetical problems pop up, you're covered by the 4yr/100 month warranty.

I have put the scanner on the TL right after it was jump started and alternator output was nowhere near 100%, much less 110%.

Optima quality did go down. I know too many people including myself that used those batteries in the '90s till today in the same cars under the same conditions that noticed a HUGE decline in quality. I would say the two that I had that measured zero volts after 1-3 months were not a victim of my alternator. I've never had that problem with any other batteries, not even the $60 battery I ran in my commuter.

The only time my Optima was run dead was in the bodyshop and the car was already having drivability issues. I'm the only one that drives my car so the odds are in my favor that the new one will never be run dead. The Optima was close to not starting the car several times with literally 5 minutes of music playing with the engine off. The new battery has given me over 30 minutes with no change in how quickly it turns the engine over.

The audio in my car is very efficient, at a farily loud level it's pulling about 100w (the subs require less than 10w to get pretty loud) on average and I hardly ever use it to it's full capacity. The additional power is only there to make sure it's capable of reproducing the dynamic peaks which are likely measured in miliseconds. I doubt this load which is less than the heated seats is going to make a significant difference.

As I said in my other post, the internet is inherently negative. If there's a problem, people talk about it. If these batteries were going bad in any appreciable quanity from jumpstarting, I'm sure there would be a ton of people on that bandwagon. Jumpstarting is not good for any battery, maybe it's worse for the AGM batteries but I don't plan on testing that theory.

I hate cars

That's awesome. March it is! Maybe I won't be fat by then hopefully. I went a few weekends ago. I got wasted off of 3 beers each night lol. That was a blast.


I've watched the TL's charging system via a voltmeter and the scanner. It's interesting to watch, it really doesn't charge steady state, it displays alternator output in percent and varies quite a bit. 10% to 60% seems to be the normal fluctuating range. Voltage remains pretty consistent but is lower in the hot months.

vr6vdub

75* is hot enough

gwiffer

iTrader: (7)

Are you reading that from a generic OBD2 scanner or something else?

vr6vdub

No luck for me.

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

any updates from i hate cars?

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

I'm sure he'll come back in...
how about you paperboy...car still doing better with the new battery?

ZOMGVTEK

To the best of my knowledge, the alternator never turns off in my TL. It used to be obvious in previous vehicles, since things like the windows roll down slower and the headlights dim. The TL must really be designed for 'luxury' and it maintains an extremely steady voltage for consistent operation of electrical devices.

The stock grounding is a bit questionable, so I added a few ground wires to the throttle body, transmission, and engine which may have helped. However, I don't think I ever noticed my Ultraguage report under 14.0V, it's typically floating around 14.1xV. I can turn both heated seats on, headlights, roll all the windows down, and it still maintains 14.0x-14.1xV, which is more than good enough to not notice it. The ECU should work fine down to 8-9V if not lower. It's not going to miss 0.1V.

I'm not sure what voltage the Ultraguage is reading, it could be the voltage that is powering itself off the ECU. However, key on, without the engine running, it reports quite low voltage. I'd estimate 0.3-0.4V Lower than what can be measured at the battery. It's readings appear to be fairly trustworthy, but it's not reading battery voltage.

4drviper

my OBD2 also reads 14.1-14.3 with engine on and whatever i'm doing with switches, day and night

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

I'm not sure if I ever experienced the surge you guys are talking about...might have been psychological on my part after I got the new battery. Well mine was due for a replacement since it was dying and wouldnt start the car sometimes

Shoot2Thrill

I'm all for finding out the problem. I only experienced it once "maybe"in the 08 when the car was soaked at 100 plus degrees. I did change the battery to a new one prior, not a fancy battery, before I even saw the problem. I run radar (3) 995 detectors that reads voltage every time I drive the 04, 08 and 12. Very little variation in voltage when the car is running no matter what the load. My thought that this problem may be related to the evap solenoid valve. High vapor pressure in the fuel tank causes more leakage and thus screws up the fuel mixture. When the tank pressure returns to something more typical the car runs better. I never had any issue with the 04 and that has been driven in the heat and on the 12 I just have limited experience.

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Sorry to dig this thread up from the dead, but im looking for a little info regarding this heat issue. So I have my automatic 08 Type S and weather has been getting warmer. I have seen some days in the mid to high 70's and sure enough the car felt very sluggish. Well today was in the mid 80's and the car just feels weak. I bought the car just prior to winter and the original owner told me Acura said it needs a new battery. I didnt think anything of it since the car starts perfectly fine everytime. I stubmled upon this thread about the battery issue possibly being the culprit. Well just for grins I stopped by Auto Zone to get the gattery checked and his machine said bad battery as well.
Since its been so long since this thread started do you (I Hate Cars) still feel that a weak battery is the culprit here or has your thoughts on that changed over time? I know batteries are relatively cheap and an easy swap so it cant be a bad idea anyway, but just looking to see what you thought.

Car is an 08 auto Type S only 29,000 miles, original battery. Outside temps hit 87 today and the car just felt so weak. It drives and shifts normal, but lower end power (before vtec) feels like I easily lost 70 or more HP, or as others describe it a car with a full tank of fuel, and 5 large adults. No check engine light, no other issues whatsoever.
That one didnt necessarily feel weak though, it just surged during acceleration where as my current Type S feels weak, but still accelerates smoothly.

Thanks,
James

P.S. not sure if you remember all the threads I had a while back about the hot weather surging in my previous 08 Type S 6mt, but man I was thinking to myself what if it was all because the battery LOL. I did so much to try and fix that car and spent so much time at dealerships. Hell, I ended up selling that car because of that problem haha.