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The Optimal Percentage of Racing ATF

 
Old 06-29-2012, 02:46 PM
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@ bumping your own post...

read the first few pages of the thread and it will tell you which option to pick
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by swoosh View Post
@ bumping your own post...

read the first few pages of the thread and it will tell you which option to pick
LOL Swoosh i hate u. is it so hard to tell me which to do or do u not know 100% yourself? COME AT ME BRO haha
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:23 PM
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well firstly what are you trying to get at ?

do you want stock viscosity or lower/higher viscosity?
then the % of FM's
then your current situation

depending on these you will need to come at what products you want to get....and what mixture will work for you....honestly, its not one size fits all (atleast IMO)....
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Old 06-29-2012, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by swoosh View Post
well firstly what are you trying to get at ?

do you want stock viscosity or lower/higher viscosity?
then the % of FM's
then your current situation

depending on these you will need to come at what products you want to get....and what mixture will work for you....honestly, its not one size fits all (atleast IMO)....
trying to get at whatever would be best for a tranny with162k miles lol. for longevity. IDK what viscoscity would be best and FM's etc. No expert at this i just know how to change the fluid
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Old 06-29-2012, 06:02 PM
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I haven't clicked on this thread for months, maybe I'll be back in another 6 months but this is it for now.

Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
I'm still not 100% sure racing fluid will reduce transmission wear and tear.
Let me explain...
FM reduces friction... reduced friction also reduces clutches rubbing. Yes it increases slip, but may not increase wear and tear.
If it's slipping, it's wearing. The quicker you can complete the shift, the sooner the wear stops. With too much FM you end up with a bump shift where the shift begins by dragging the clutches, causing useless wear and not really doing anything. As the shift progresses, the hydraulic pressure is quickly ramped up and the clutches grab all at once in the last few miliseconds of the shift. This causes a higher peak load on everything than if it just shifted quicker but more consistently in the first place. This is why many, myself included noticed less shift harshness when going to the Type F fluid and replacing the switches.

Clutches in an auto are not tolerant to slip. It takes very little to burn the surface and further reduce friction. On top of that, there is very little friction material. They are made to be on or off.
Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
Low friction means low rubbing... see on some plastic or bronze bearings in electric motors, they are working years, almost with no oil.
Yes, in a bearing with very low friction and let's not forget, bronze and some plastics are practically self lubricating, that's why they are chosen.
Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
Oil is a FM... remove oil from your engine and your pistons and cylinders will be destroyed in a minutes.
Low friction also means low heat emission...
Pistons, well actually rings are designed for the lowest possible drag while still sealing the cylinders. They are not designed with coupling in mind. It's apples to oranges, no comparison. Pistons generally "wear out" in the ring land area by the rings hammering them. The skirt and crown will usually go many hundreds of thousands of miles with very little wear.

Try driving a manual and slipping the clutch at every gearchange for a few seconds and see how long it lasts.
Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
Percentage of FM in ATF will definitely impact switching, but I'm not so sure about transmission life and dependability.
It's a well known fact in the industry that the quicker the shifts are the less wear occurs on the friction surfaces. In high hp applications where stock friction area must be used, the most important aspect of getting the trans to live is shift timing and shift speed. Shift speed is generally as quick as possible without breaking hard parts for minimal wear.
Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
I think all these conversation about ATF are in place just because of bad V6 transmission created by Honda... Z1 or DW-1 may be good enough, RedLine or Amsoil may be better, but they are just patch... and patch cannot treat serious illness...
There are a couple causes of the transmission failure and I agree, the fluids, both factory and aftermarket are band-aids but the best and only options available if you want the trans to last. One cause of failure is too much FM when coupled with switches that go bad often and contribute to slow, soft shifts. The two in conjunction with one another are a recipe for disaster. The other cause is the 3rd gear circuit gets momentarily energized on the automatic 4-2 downshift and does not have the flow capacity to exhaust the circuit in time. You end up with 2nd gear fully applied with the mechanical advantage and hydraulic advantage while 3rd has enough hydraulic pressure to apply the 3rd gear clutch pack but not enough to win the fight with 2nd gear. The result is slipping/dragging 3rd gear clutches. This is the one case where you can argue the crappy heavily FM factory fluid can be beneficial but personally I would just avoid the automatic 4-2 downshift.
Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
I had Chevy Malibu 2000, never did anything with transmission until car has been damaged in accident at 230K km and sent to scrap... OEM ATF, nothing special.. never had ANY problems with it (DEXIII I believe)

I'm not a guru in automatic transmissions, but have engineering background and understand how machines work...
DexIII has less FM than Z1. You're talking about a completely different transmission with greater friction surface area in a less powerful car. Apples to oranges. You could put a TH400 in a TL and there's no doubt it would go half a million miles regardless of the fluid.
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Old 07-02-2012, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ResistaNce View Post
trying to get at whatever would be best for a tranny with162k miles lol. for longevity. IDK what viscoscity would be best and FM's etc. No expert at this i just know how to change the fluid
do a 4x3 with 500 miles interval....

every drain and refill should have D4, Lightweight Type F and Type F....so you have 66% FM's in every drain and refill.....do this 4 times....
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Old 07-02-2012, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by swoosh View Post
do a 4x3 with 500 miles interval....

every drain and refill should have D4, Lightweight Type F and Type F....so you have 66% FM's in every drain and refill.....do this 4 times....
I second swoosh's advice here.

I'm at 175k on my original transmission and have been reading these threads for a long time and using the Redline fluids to get as much life out of my transmission as possible.
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Old 07-05-2012, 10:48 PM
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Once you have the fluid in good shape, for maintenance would you do a 1x3 every oil change or a 3x3 flush every 3rd oil change? Want to keep the fluid in the best possible shape.
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Old 07-06-2012, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by flint View Post
Once you have the fluid in good shape, for maintenance would you do a 1x3 every oil change or a 3x3 flush every 3rd oil change? Want to keep the fluid in the best possible shape.
I'm an advocate of doing a 1x3 every 20k miles which should be every 3rd oil change for how I drive.

Once you're already optimal, the superior Redline ATF should not require as frequent changes. I like monitoring the wear on the magnetic plug so it makes more sense to see the plug more frequent than waiting 3x longer and then doing a 3x3 which isn't necessary (since you're not changing fluid types). I'll continue the 20k interval for now and may extend this to 30k once I see noticeably different wear on the plug. I have been taking pictures of the plug and wiping the wear on a paper towel so this should be easy to confirm my next ATF change. I'll be doing this change this next month and will look forward to seeing some hopefully good results.

On a side note, a lot of people are confusing the 3x3 as a regular service procedure. The owner's manual is pretty clear that you only need to do that if you use a non Z1/DW fluid in an emergency situation and wish to go back to OEM configuration. Read you owner's manual and you'll see what I'm referring too.
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by flint View Post
Once you have the fluid in good shape, for maintenance would you do a 1x3 every oil change or a 3x3 flush every 3rd oil change? Want to keep the fluid in the best possible shape.
For maintenance I've been doing a 1x3 every other oil change which is about every 14,000 highway miles for me.
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:55 AM
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^^^ THIS is exactly what am about to do....1x3 every 15K miles as compared to 4x3 every 60K miles....
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Old 07-09-2012, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by I hate cars View Post
If it's slipping, it's wearing. The quicker you can complete the shift, the sooner the wear stops.
this is true... but with some conditions... and condition is " if everything else is the same"... So, if dragging occurs with the same ATF that has the same amount of FM - you are completely right... but if amount of FM is noticeable higher, then friction coefficient will be lower... that brings higher slippage, but lower wearing... apply oil on your brake disks and pads, they will never wear (but won't be usable as a brakes )
Originally Posted by I hate cars View Post
With too much FM you end up with a bump shift where the shift begins by dragging the clutches, causing useless wear and not really doing anything.
the wear stops.
... actually it is not completely useless... dragging is REQUIRED to prolong lifespan for mechanical parts by avoiding hard shifting (not talking about comfort)... that is the reason why friction clutches are being used... not hard locking mechanisms (known in engineering)

Originally Posted by I hate cars View Post
As the shift progresses, the hydraulic pressure is quickly ramped up and the clutches grab all at once in the last few miliseconds of the shift. This causes a higher peak load on everything than if it just shifted quicker but more consistently in the first place. This is why many, myself included noticed less shift harshness when going to the Type F fluid and replacing the switches.
I'm not discussing peak load... I doubt 10% of people who is participating in this forum used all 100% of his/her engine power... at least uses it on regular basis... but transmissions are failing anyway...

Originally Posted by I hate cars View Post
Clutches in an auto are not tolerant to slip. It takes very little to burn the surface and further reduce friction. On top of that, there is very little friction material. They are made to be on or off.
Clutches always tolerant to some slip. SOME.. and this is why they are used here... OF course, to much slip is bad... as well as no slip at all also is not good
Originally Posted by I hate cars View Post
Yes, in a bearing with very low friction and let's not forget, bronze and some plastics are practically self lubricating, that's why they are chosen.
Not completely correct... they are not self lubricating, they just have low friction coefficient
Originally Posted by I hate cars View Post
Pistons, well actually rings are designed for the lowest possible drag while still sealing the cylinders. They are not designed with coupling in mind. It's apples to oranges, no comparison. Pistons generally "wear out" in the ring land area by the rings hammering them. The skirt and crown will usually go many hundreds of thousands of miles with very little wear.
You are right... talking about "pistons" I just simplified wording... anyway, removing lubrication from "pistons" and cylinders with bring you to the engine destruction soon

Originally Posted by I hate cars View Post
Try driving a manual and slipping the clutch at every gearchange for a few seconds and see how long it lasts.
Hmmm. I was driving manual for many years... I know that you are right... Now try driiving manual with no slipping at all I doubt you will be able to move car from the parking spot
Again... I want to say that there is no black and white situation... some slipping required to prolong mechanism life, too much slipping also is not good
Originally Posted by I hate cars View Post
It's a well known fact in the industry that the quicker the shifts are the less wear occurs on the friction surfaces. In high hp applications where stock friction area must be used, the most important aspect of getting the trans to live is shift timing and shift speed. Shift speed is generally as quick as possible without breaking hard parts for minimal wear.
I have to repeat again: "if everything else is the same". Changing friction coefficient isd not "the same" condition... apples and oranges, as you said...

Originally Posted by I hate cars View Post
There are a couple causes of the transmission failure and I agree, the fluids, both factory and aftermarket are band-aids but the best and only options available if you want the trans to last.
The same fluid works well in other Honda's transmissions for hundreds of thousands miles. This urges me to believe, that initial reason might be somewhere else (I'm not trying to prove, that Z1 or DW1 is a perfect fluid and better than Redline or Amsoil, I do not have enough information about this, I switched from Z1 myself a couple of years ago )
Originally Posted by I hate cars View Post
One cause of failure is too much FM when coupled with switches that go bad often and contribute to slow, soft shifts. The two in conjunction with one another are a recipe for disaster. The other cause is the 3rd gear circuit gets momentarily energized on the automatic 4-2 downshift and does not have the flow capacity to exhaust the circuit in time. You end up with 2nd gear fully applied with the mechanical advantage and hydraulic advantage while 3rd has enough hydraulic pressure to apply the 3rd gear clutch pack but not enough to win the fight with 2nd gear. The result is slipping/dragging 3rd gear clutches. This is the one case where you can argue the crappy heavily FM factory fluid can be beneficial but personally I would just avoid the automatic 4-2 downshift.
Bad design... Honda ATF may also be bad, but I think (if so) it is secondary... and using the best possible ATF in G2 may just slightly improve situation...
Originally Posted by I hate cars View Post
DexIII has less FM than Z1. You're talking about a completely different transmission with greater friction surface area in a less powerful car. Apples to oranges. You could put a TH400 in a TL and there's no doubt it would go half a million miles regardless of the fluid.
Yes, I know... but why not to do honda's transmission "completely differently" and forget about ATF problems? (bad design again). CAr power is not really important.. weight is close to each other, driving habbits are the same (kinda aggressive, but not too much), max power? In the regular highway driving I doubt I use 30% of possible power on my ATL-05... Maliby might used the same number of horses, but percentage would be higher due the limited number of horses under the Malibu's hood

Again...adding FM increases slipping, but also reduces friction coefficient and rubbing (and heat dissipation as well, this is simple science).
If you are aggressive racing driver you may need faster shifting and have to use ATF with less FM, regular driver may be happy with DW1, grandma ma say that it is shifting too hard and she wants even smother shifting... Honda developed ATF with some amount of FM, that they think will be good enough for most drivers of the target audience, but will not create problems... There are always some drivers those are not in that audience and won't be completely happy with this solution... This is the reason why people are modding their cars, computers, boats, houses, etc ...
unfortunately they didn't develop reliable transmission... and I don't think that all 5AT transmission problems on Accords, Acuras, Odys caused by "bad" ATF... It may not be the best, but problem is in another place
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Old 07-09-2012, 11:38 AM
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great information, both ways
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Old 07-09-2012, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
Clutches always tolerant to some slip. SOME.. and this is why they are used here... OF course, to much slip is bad... as well as no slip at all also is not good

[snip]

Hmmm. I was driving manual for many years... I know that you are right... Now try driiving manual with no slipping at all I doubt you will be able to move car from the parking spot
Again... I want to say that there is no black and white situation... some slipping required to prolong mechanism life, too much slipping also is not good
Just want to say that as an engineer and based on what I've read on this forum and experienced with my car, I think I agree with the above statements. I am not a mechanical engineer, a mechanic or in the car industry. . . so my opinion probably isn't worth much.

I also think that the OEM Z1 fluid had way too much FM which caused too much slipping and is probably why they revised it and came out with DW1. I also think that going to a complete Type-F with no FM may have been too far in the other direction, which brings us to why Inaccurate created this thread in the first place. A recommendation to mix in some FM fluid with the Type-F... just nowhere near as much as the OEM fluid had.

Regardless, most of us on this forum really don't have enough information to be absolutely certain of any solution. We just don't have enough solid data gathered in a scientific and controlled manner, so we simply share info and make our best guesses.
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Old 07-10-2012, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
this is true... but with some conditions... and condition is " if everything else is the same"... So, if dragging occurs with the same ATF that has the same amount of FM - you are completely right... but if amount of FM is noticeable higher, then friction coefficient will be lower... that brings higher slippage, but lower wearing... apply oil on your brake disks and pads, they will never wear (but won't be usable as a brakes )
That would be almost correct except reducing the FM content reduces "dragging" time and gets right to the business of full coupling of the clutches.
Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
... actually it is not completely useless... dragging is REQUIRED to prolong lifespan for mechanical parts by avoiding hard shifting (not talking about comfort)... that is the reason why friction clutches are being used... not hard locking mechanisms (known in engineering)
"Dragging" is completely useless in an auto unless abnormally high wear is the goal. The entire shift span should be used to couple the clutches quickly and in a linear fashion. Dragging creates additional heat and wear.

Excessive slippage is not needed in this transmission. How many hard parts have you ever seen broken in the Honda 5at? An auto does not "shift" gears. They're always in mesh with one another and the correct clutch is applied and the correct clutch is released to complete a shift. Shift timing is not perfect so we need some slippage or we would end up with a bind of a flare, but that slippage needs to be minimized for the least amount of wear.

Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
I'm not discussing peak load... I doubt 10% of people who is participating in this forum used all 100% of his/her engine power... at least uses it on regular basis... but transmissions are failing anyway...
You're discussing power. I'm discussing peak load. They're somewhat independent of each other in regards to the shock that you feel from a shift. You can have smooth power flow on the shifts at part throttle and at full throttle. The key is getting consistent application of the clutches over the shift cycle. If the shift takes one second from beginning to end, it's better to have a linear engagement of the clutches, not slip, slip, slip, and grab in the last few miliseconds of the shift. This last shift is called a bump shift and this is what the TL does on the stock fluid. The peak load or shock goes up because the first half of the shift was spent with useless slipping and wear, not really contributing to the engagement and you end up with abrupt engagement at the very end.

This is why a fluid with less FM gives more comfortable shifts in the Tl's case. It gives a more uniform application of the clutches which means quicker, less sloppy shifts and at the same time less peak load which is felt by the driver as a smoother shift and less stress on hard parts.
Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
Clutches always tolerant to some slip. SOME.. and this is why they are used here... OF course, to much slip is bad... as well as no slip at all also is not good
You're kidding, right? I said this in my last post.
Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
You are right... talking about "pistons" I just simplified wording... anyway, removing lubrication from "pistons" and cylinders with bring you to the engine destruction soon
Yes, but pistons are not designed to couple with the cylinders, ever.
Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
Hmmm. I was driving manual for many years... I know that you are right... Now try driiving manual with no slipping at all I doubt you will be able to move car from the parking spot
Cute. But that's what a torque converter is for. It's a fluid coupling designed to provide the slip necessary when standing still or taking off from a stop so the clutches don't have to.
Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
Again... I want to say that there is no black and white situation... some slipping required to prolong mechanism life, too much slipping also is not good
As I said before, some slipping is required to reduce shock on the hard parts and the driver and the maximum clutch life will be the minimal slip necessary to not break anything or snap the driver's neck.
Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
I have to repeat again: "if everything else is the same". Changing friction coefficient isd not "the same" condition... apples and oranges, as you said...
Changing friction coefficient speeds up the shifts so everything is very close to the same.
Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
The same fluid works well in other Honda's transmissions for hundreds of thousands miles. This urges me to believe, that initial reason might be somewhere else (I'm not trying to prove, that Z1 or DW1 is a perfect fluid and better than Redline or Amsoil, I do not have enough information about this, I switched from Z1 myself a couple of years ago )
Bad design... Honda ATF may also be bad, but I think (if so) it is secondary... and using the best possible ATF in G2 may just slightly improve situation...
The same fluid works well in the lighter, less powerful 4 cylinder models. You can figure that one out.

The better fluid will more than just slightly improve the situation. Take a look around the site for more info. On another level, once the clutches' surface is too far gone to fully lock up and you have a slipping transmission or the beginning of slip (shudder) the lower FM fluid gives the necessary friction to fully couple and get a few more miles out of it, thousands in fact. Look around on this site at how many transmissions with shudder were cured with this fluid along with switches.

I explained the mechanism behind the failures, all 3 in fact, but you choose to ignore them.
Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
Yes, I know... but why not to do honda's transmission "completely differently" and forget about ATF problems? (bad design again). CAr power is not really important.. weight is close to each other, driving habbits are the same (kinda aggressive, but not too much), max power? In the regular highway driving I doubt I use 30% of possible power on my ATL-05... Maliby might used the same number of horses, but percentage would be higher due the limited number of horses under the Malibu's hood
Power and weight are EXTREMELY important. I'm kind of surprised you made such a statement. Shift speed and shift timing are also extremely important as is friction area.

I understand what you're saying but if you have a heavier car, you're using more power to accelerate it at a given rate. Over tens of thousands of shifts, you don't think that adds up?

More importantly, you cross a threshold at a given power and weight (with these specific transmissions) where you go from a proper quick shift to the bump shift of the TL and wear will more than triple on each shift. Now you have a bump shift and more average power and weight. It's a compound problem.

During highway driving the torque convertor is locked and there is no shifting. The only wear occurring on the highway is hard parts such as bearings, bushings, and gears. If these are the conditions in which you drove your Malibu, you're going to run into hard part failure before you wear the clutches out and that's many hundreds of thousands of miles away.

Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
Again...adding FM increases slipping, but also reduces friction coefficient and rubbing (and heat dissipation as well, this is simple science).
Simple, yes, but you're oversimplifying it. Here's the part that's frustrating. Quicker shifts are not only well known to provide less clutch wear in the industry, it's a rule. I will leave it up to you to read up and educate yourself. I've been there first hand when I used to build transmissions and when I used to test them both short term, long term, and under racing conditions. I will give you this... Friction coefficient and wear are not linear. The time domain is much, much more important than the friction coefficient.

Also, FM does not reduce heat dissipation.
Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
If you are aggressive racing driver you may need faster shifting and have to use ATF with less FM, regular driver may be happy with DW1, grandma ma say that it is shifting too hard and she wants even smother shifting... Honda developed ATF with some amount of FM, that they think will be good enough for most drivers of the target audience, but will not create problems... There are always some drivers those are not in that audience and won't be completely happy with this solution... This is the reason why people are modding their cars, computers, boats, houses, etc ...
unfortunately they didn't develop reliable transmission... and I don't think that all 5AT transmission problems on Accords, Acuras, Odys caused by "bad" ATF... It may not be the best, but problem is in another place
Don't fool yourself. Quicker shifts reduce wear in every auto transmission no matter what car it's in or what the driving style is. Those "grandma" shifts you speak of cause the most wear. You need to think about that for a second. You can sometimes get away with those slow, sloppy, soft grandma shifts when they're occurring at very low throttle and power conditions but less wear would occur if they were quick and throw some power into the mix and you have failure in a matter of hours.

Read what I wrote again. I did not say all 5at problems are the fault of the fluid. In fact, I said the fluid is a band-aid. The crappy factory fluid with it's tendency to oxidize in a few thousand miles and high FM content exacerbate the problem.

Let's not forget, the different FM content can slightly alter shift timing as well and in our case it seems to be on the positive side.
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Old 07-10-2012, 11:55 PM
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Hey guys,

I bought my car last month and it has 46K miles. I'm not sure if the fluid was changed before but I will assume that it wasn't. I plan on changing the filter up top and also cleaning the screen "bullets". I want to do a 3x3 and decided to buy 9 quarts of RL Racing ATF but the more I read the more I'm confused about what fluid to use. What do you guys recommend?
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Old 07-11-2012, 09:17 AM
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^^^ cool story bro....

now read the thread !!!
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Old 07-11-2012, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by swoosh View Post
^^^ cool story bro....

now read the thread !!!
Facepalm to myself.

I should've read instead of skimming.

I gather that the 65% Racing is still the best option for first time switchers?

Refill #1 = 2 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF
Refill #2 = 2 qt Lightweight ATF + 1 qt Racing ATF
Refill #3 = 1 qt D4 + 1 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF

Now the question I should've asked instead is can I proceed to Refill #1 from above not knowing what's in the transmission currently? And also is it better to wait 500 miles or 1K miles to proceed to Refill #2?
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:05 AM
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That would be almost correct except reducing the FM content reduces "dragging" time and gets right to the business of full coupling of the clutches.
"Dragging" is completely useless in an auto unless abnormally high wear is the goal. The entire shift span should be used to couple the clutches quickly and in a linear fashion. Dragging creates additional heat and wear.
Excessive slippage is not needed in this transmission.
kinda disagreement with yourself
Is slippage/dragging required or not? I'm not about "excessive"...
read my words again... SOME slippage required (and you are saying the same)... but only some, controlled... If transmission can work without slippage why nobody uses othet methods of coupling?

All this only about understandint of definition of "SOME"

How many hard parts have you ever seen broken in the Honda 5at? An auto does not "shift" gears. They're always in mesh with one another and the correct clutch is applied and the correct clutch is released to complete a shift. Shift timing is not perfect so we need some slippage or we would end up with a bind of a flare, but that slippage needs to be minimized for the least amount of wear.
Oh, I know... as I said I have engineering background.. in transportation area... and more than just university diploma... No objections on your willingness to improve shift timing... as I said we always customizing everything... cars, computers etc.... I just not sure it will also increase transmission life... And, as far as I see, you also cannot prove this... just because you also do not have enough data... e.g. 5 mln total miles on two transmissions, the same driving habits, but with different ATF... I also have no such data... and it means I cannot be 100% certain in this statement... It may.. or it may not... or something in between... or it may even reduce...

I don't believe that using Redline or Amsoil in 5AT transmissions on Acura TL and CL 2G will eliminate problems with those transmissions (but cannot prove that... I do not have car with such transmission, that shall be brand new... and cannot do appropriate experiments. From the other side nobody here has enough data that will definitely prove that high amount of FM in honda ATF is the reason for transmission failures

You're kidding, right? I said this in my last post.
No, I'm not kidding... you said:
Clutches in an auto are not tolerant to slip
too many contradictions in your words...
I would agree with you that some people will want more firm shifting and they shall use ATF with less FM, some other may be happy with way transmission shifts as it supposed to shift according to Honda's opinion, some will want hard shifting and may use ATF with no FM at all... but there is no hard proof that FM kills transmission, unless transmission is badly designed... Z1 or DW-1 designed for average user in target audience, other may want to change situation one or another way...
Power and weight are EXTREMELY important. I'm kind of surprised you made such a statement
Sure, important... As I said about weight... but power... number of horses in user manual is just a potential power... max power that can be produced by the engine... not power that engine releases all the time... As I said I doubt engine uses more than 30% of it's max power on highway driving... Full power only used with acceleration on the full throttle. If you are using your max power all the time - you will kill any transmission regardless of ATF used in pretty short time, it is not designed for such conditions. Real average power released by the engine more depends on driving habbits, than on digits in manual... and on vehicle weight, of course

I value your opinion, I'm reading forum for a long time, just not writing a lot ... you know, this is kinda jocke... I was never worrying about transmission on my Maliby (car with similar size and weight, almost the same engine displacement, but less horse powers...) And transmission was working just perfectly... original colour and smell after 200K km (changing ATF wasn't requried whole car life, according to user manual)... and kinda brownish colour on ATL transmission after 80-90K km... with the same driving habits, similar car weight, the same road conditions... Changed ATF to Mobil1 and 60K km later it also starting slightly change colour, despite I installed transmission cooler with additional fan and thermostat. This makes me believe, that biggest problem is transmission itself, not a car power, ATF or anything else... It is not slipping, but ATF discoloration already not a good thing. Going to switch to Red Line or Amsoil soon... or will use DW-1. I'm reading all these transmission related threads for better understanding, but still not convinced that racing ATF ifs a good thing for transmission (may be not bad, but Inaccurate reported driveability problems with full racing ATF in his transmission...
I doubt I will buy another acura or honda..., unless they will fix transmission completely
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Old 07-12-2012, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jiggad369 View Post
Facepalm to myself.

I should've read instead of skimming.

I gather that the 65% Racing is still the best option for first time switchers?

Refill #1 = 2 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF
Refill #2 = 2 qt Lightweight ATF + 1 qt Racing ATF
Refill #3 = 1 qt D4 + 1 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF

Now the question I should've asked instead is can I proceed to Refill #1 from above not knowing what's in the transmission currently? And also is it better to wait 500 miles or 1K miles to proceed to Refill #2?
Just my opinion, but not knowing what was in the transmission, I would probably do three refills all with 1 qt D4 + 1 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF. Waiting 500 miles between may not be necessary, but I view it as being safer since you can just make sure you don't experience any strange shifting issues along the way. Regardless of what was in the transmission originally, you'll still end up with somewhere close to a 2/3 racing fluid mixture and you will have introduced it gradually.

Bottom line is that the Redline fluids have served me well for the past 60,000 miles and I highly recommend getting them into your transmission based on my personal experience. I have not experienced the shift quality issues I had since I made the switch.
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Old 07-12-2012, 02:05 PM
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^^^ this !!!
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Old 07-12-2012, 10:10 PM
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Thanks fellas. Appreciate the help!

Btw, I'll be switching out the 2nd and 3rd switches, as well as the filter element up top, and also cleaning out the three screens. I was also thinking about adding a Magnefine inline filter. Good idea?

That's all I've rather from searching so far (unless I find someone who can install a tranny cooler).

Want the tranny to be in as well of a condition as possible.
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Old 07-12-2012, 10:53 PM
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You know, when I read you were an engineer I almost didn't reply because I knew I would be hearing that statement used many more times and used as a crutch for your argument.

Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
kinda disagreement with yourself
Is slippage/dragging required or not? I'm not about "excessive"...
read my words again... SOME slippage required (and you are saying the same)... but only some, controlled... If transmission can work without slippage why nobody uses othet methods of coupling?

All this only about understandint of definition of "SOME"
"Dragging" implies just that, dragging, unnecessary friction and wear while not working toward the goal of completing a shift. I guess you could put it in the "excessive slippage" category.
Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
Oh, I know... as I said I have engineering background.. in transportation area... and more than just university diploma... No objections on your willingness to improve shift timing... as I said we always customizing everything... cars, computers etc.... I just not sure it will also increase transmission life... And, as far as I see, you also cannot prove this... just because you also do not have enough data... e.g. 5 mln total miles on two transmissions, the same driving habits, but with different ATF... I also have no such data... and it means I cannot be 100% certain in this statement... It may.. or it may not... or something in between... or it may even reduce...
It's been proven tens of thousands of times in the real world. Perfect shift timing with as little slip as possible is the goal of any transmission designer. If the engineer had the final say, cars would come out of the factory chirping tires on every gear shift. However, this would not sell many cars.
Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
I don't believe that using Redline or Amsoil in 5AT transmissions on Acura TL and CL 2G will eliminate problems with those transmissions (but cannot prove that... I do not have car with such transmission, that shall be brand new... and cannot do appropriate experiments. From the other side nobody here has enough data that will definitely prove that high amount of FM in honda ATF is the reason for transmission failures
Don't believe it. No fluid will eliminate the inherent design flaws but it can certainly band-aid it so that we get acceptable life out of the trans. There are a lot of data points, search through the threads at all of the cars that were experiencing shudder which is slippage that the fluid and/or switches cured. If you choose not to look, that's not my problem.

Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
No, I'm not kidding... you said:

too many contradictions in your words...
I would agree with you that some people will want more firm shifting and they shall use ATF with less FM, some other may be happy with way transmission shifts as it supposed to shift according to Honda's opinion, some will want hard shifting and may use ATF with no FM at all... but there is no hard proof that FM kills transmission, unless transmission is badly designed... Z1 or DW-1 designed for average user in target audience, other may want to change situation one or another way...
Do you purposely ignore my points or do you just not get them? There is proof everywhere that too much FM kills transmission *when it causes excessive slip*.

Again, read what I write. Most people experience LESS harsh shifts with less or no FM. That was my experience as well. The bump shift or jerk as it is experienced by the driver disappears with less FM. The reason why has been explained twice already.

Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
Sure, important... As I said about weight... but power... number of horses in user manual is just a potential power... max power that can be produced by the engine... not power that engine releases all the time... As I said I doubt engine uses more than 30% of it's max power on highway driving... Full power only used with acceleration on the full throttle. If you are using your max power all the time - you will kill any transmission regardless of ATF used in pretty short time, it is not designed for such conditions. Real average power released by the engine more depends on driving habbits, than on digits in manual... and on vehicle weight, of course
Please, get full throttle out of your head. A heavier car requires both more average power and more peak power for the same acceleration.

Full throttle shifts don't kill an automatic as you're assuming. They will kill it quicker if shift timing is off or if there's excessive slip during the shift but if everything is in good order, full throttle isn't abusive. Let's not forget, the TL won't do full throttle upshifts. The throttle closes on the shifts so there's very little power going through the transmission when it shifts which brings me back to the original point, shift quickness is everything in respect to wear and it actually reduces the shock felt by the drivetrain and the driver.

Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
I value your opinion, I'm reading forum for a long time, just not writing a lot ... you know, this is kinda jocke... I was never worrying about transmission on my Maliby (car with similar size and weight, almost the same engine displacement, but less horse powers...) And transmission was working just perfectly... original colour and smell after 200K km (changing ATF wasn't requried whole car life, according to user manual)... and kinda brownish colour on ATL transmission after 80-90K km... with the same driving habits, similar car weight, the same road conditions... Changed ATF to Mobil1 and 60K km later it also starting slightly change colour, despite I installed transmission cooler with additional fan and thermostat. This makes me believe, that biggest problem is transmission itself, not a car power, ATF or anything else... It is not slipping, but ATF discoloration already not a good thing. Going to switch to Red Line or Amsoil soon... or will use DW-1. I'm reading all these transmission related threads for better understanding, but still not convinced that racing ATF ifs a good thing for transmission (may be not bad, but Inaccurate reported driveability problems with full racing ATF in his transmission...
I doubt I will buy another acura or honda..., unless they will fix transmission completely

ATF is red because it's dyed red. Some ATFs turn brown just from heat cycling alone. It does not mean there's anything wrong with the fluid or the trans.

Any automatic requires a fluid change. In the case of your Malibu, that was marketing winning the battle with the engineers.

In response to one of your earlier statements, what works best in racing will usually work well in a street car. So much of our technology trickles down from racing. In a fast car, bad shift timing or a slow shift might mean it lasts only a few passes. In a normal car it might mean it lasts 60,000 miles vs 120,000 miles. The scale changes but the end result usually doesn't.

How about this, instead of arguing points that have already been proven for years, try the fluid in question and report back with your own opinion. I'm not trying to be a jerk but arguing whether or not quicker shifts mean less clutch wear is like arguing whether or not the sky is blue. It would be great if Honda gave us 10x the friction surface area as many of the heavy duty transmissions have but having a relatively small friction area means shift timing and quickness are more critical.
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Old 07-13-2012, 07:55 AM
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"Dragging" implies just that, dragging, unnecessary friction and wear while not working toward the goal of completing a shift. I guess you could put it in the "excessive slippage" category.
thank you for definition (english is not my native language )
It's been proven tens of thousands of times in the real world.
I'm really sorry, but nobody on this (or any other) forum has enough statistic to certainly prove this... Did you drive a few millions of miles total on the same transmissions but with different ATF? I'm not talking about transmissions in general, this particular transmission is prone to fail... I'm not saying you are wrong (this is you want to prove that I'm wrong ).. yo may be right... you may be wrong... but you (and me too) do not have enough data.. both of us...
Do you purposely ignore my points or do you just not get them? There is proof everywhere that too much FM kills transmission *when it causes excessive slip*.
Sorry, I do not see this "proof".. In my opinion it is just not proven enough... There are some signs... and there are another signs.. on the top of this topic...
Please, get full throttle out of your head. A heavier car requires both more average power and more peak power for the same acceleration.
Don't you think this is kinda inappropriate?
Comparing with my old Malibu ATL is just 60 kg heavier... not much, to be honest...
http://www.auto123.com/en/chevrolet/...rid=1001202701
http://www.auto123.com/en/acura/tl/2...&tab=equipment
this is only 5% difference... it won't require much more power to accelerate... just additional 5% I would consider weight as equal... such difference shall not increase failure rate. If it is - engineers (and other who made decision about transmission) must be fired
How about this, instead of arguing points that have already been proven for years, try the fluid in question and report back with your own opinion.
this is my plan... but I do not promise quick results ...
and some others, despite you are recommending to use pure racing ATF, already reported problems with this setup... Doesn't look like this "have already been proven for years" ... It may be good for you, but not for everyone... all people are different
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Old 07-13-2012, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
thank you for definition (english is not my native language )

I'm really sorry, but nobody on this (or any other) forum has enough statistic to certainly prove this... Did you drive a few millions of miles total on the same transmissions but with different ATF? I'm not talking about transmissions in general, this particular transmission is prone to fail... I'm not saying you are wrong (this is you want to prove that I'm wrong ).. yo may be right... you may be wrong... but you (and me too) do not have enough data.. both of us...
Sorry, I do not see this "proof".. In my opinion it is just not proven enough... There are some signs... and there are another signs.. on the top of this topic...
Again, you need to search. Look at the original "racing fluid" thread.
Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
Don't you think this is kinda inappropriate?
Comparing with my old Malibu ATL is just 60 kg heavier... not much, to be honest...
http://www.auto123.com/en/chevrolet/...rid=1001202701
http://www.auto123.com/en/acura/tl/2...&tab=equipment
this is only 5% difference... it won't require much more power to accelerate... just additional 5% I would consider weight as equal... such difference shall not increase failure rate. If it is - engineers (and other who made decision about transmission) must be fired
My comment on weight and power was based on the 140hp 2,900lb Civics and 3,300lb I4 Accords that have no transmission reliability problems, not your Malibu. These are the cars that are enjoying a long life, not the 250-280hp 3,600lb TLs. You took it out of context, my comments were never about your Malibu vs the TL, you made the discussion about that.

The only thing inappropriate is taking my words out of context.

Again, your Malibu is a completely different transmission, you can't begin to compare it to a TL's transmission. Most of GM's transverse transmissions are/were based on a proven longitudal design such as the 4L60 and 4L80 and are overall good transmissions with double to triple the clutch friction area of the TL. In fact, the Honda 5at is much different than any other AT out there.

Originally Posted by boryzh View Post
this is my plan... but I do not promise quick results ...
and some others, despite you are recommending to use pure racing ATF, already reported problems with this setup... Doesn't look like this "have already been proven for years" ... It may be good for you, but not for everyone... all people are different
All people are different, all '04-'06 and '06-'08 Honda 5ats are the same within production tolerance. You need to search, it's not my duty to do it for you. You'll find tons of transmissions this fluid saved that were about to be rebuilt. There are a ton of people on this board. There were a few with a weird ass flare which I don't think is a traditional flare as in slipping, it seems more like the trans dragging a clutch pack that it's not supposed to be dragging or that does not show up with a bunch of FM.
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Old 07-22-2012, 08:36 PM
  #386  
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I will do this too

1 qt D4 + 1 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF
3x3 1000 miles interval

Had stock fluid since 2006

why D4 but no D6
I swear I searched it and found notttthing nothing about it
Just wondering
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:04 AM
  #387  
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Meko, the D6 has very low viscosity....

Check this out:
D4:
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 7.5
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 34
Viscosity Index 198

D6:
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 6.4
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 30.7
Viscosity Index 166

Type F:
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 10
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 53.7
Viscosity Index 177

LightWeight Type F:
Vis @ 100°C 4.9
Vis @ 40°C 23.2
Viscosity Index 140

I think if you use 1TypeF, 1D4 and 1Lightweight, you will get 66% FM's and a viscosity of
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 7.46
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 36.96
Viscosity Index 171.66

Now if you use 2Type F and 1D6, you will still get 66% FM's and a viscosity of:
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 8.8
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 46.03
Viscosity Index 173.33

Hence the fluid will be a little thicker...
PS: I just averaged out the numbers....I would need Inaccurate to validate if we can do that

I think the viscosity is right in the middle of straight Type F and the 1each mixture.....and it works out since the stupid Lightweight racing is out of stock pretty much everywhere....and the people who have it (on Amazon) want more $$$ and almost as much for shipping....

More reading:
Synthetic D6 ATF is a lower viscosity version of the D4ATF and is designed for better fuel efficiency in CAFE testing. Dexron VI requires a different approach to a conventional ATF formulation. Rather than beginning with a 7.5 cSt fluid and allowing a viscosity loss in use to drop to 5.5 cSt, the Dexron VI fluid requires a starting viscosity of less than 6.4 and a final drop to no less than 5.5 cSt. Red Line D6 will drop to no less than 6.1 cSt. Since the final viscosity after use of these fluids are similar, Dexron VI fluids can be used where Dexron III fluids
were previously recommended (with the exception of some manual transmission applications, our customers report).

D6 ATF also provides significantly improved gear protection and will provide a GL-4 level of gear protection. The balanced frictional characteristics provide smooth and consistent shifts for extended drain intervals. The superior stability compared to petroleum ATFs allows high-temperature operation without varnishing valves and clutches which leads to transmission failure.

Popular product and application crossover:
DexronŽ VI (GM Part Number 88861003), MerconŽ SP, MerconŽ LV, MerconŽ, DexronŽ III '99 on automatic PNs
Ford MerconŽ SP--Torque Shift 5-speed Automatic 5R110W, '03 on 6.0 liter diesel trucks, 2005-09 V-10, ZF 6HP26 6R60/6R75,
Mercon LV-'08 Focus
Mercedes NAG-2 7 speed transmission, Fuchs, Mobil & Shell 3353, MB Sheet 236.12, pt# A001 989 45 03 10

Dexron is a registered trademark of General Motors Corporation.
Mercon is a registered trademark of Ford Motor Company.
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:07 PM
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I was doing a little more looking around and found the product data sheet for the Redline ATF's:

http://www.redlineoil.com/content/fi...PDS%201-10.pdf

and the MSDS for DW1 and Z1:
http://www.worldpac.com/tagged/HONDA...S_(Canada).pdf
http://www.worldpac.com/tagged/Idemi...00-900-OES.pdf

also the "common" MSDS for the redline ATF's
http://redline-oil.ru/images/catalog/42/msds-atf.pdf

this might have been posted before but I just wanted to post it in this thread for documentation....
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:16 PM
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Good info. Don't get too hung up on viscosity though. A 20 degree temperature swing can change the viscosity to the next weight. The viscosity is measured at 212F since that's a good average operating temp. Some transmissions run significantly hotter in city driving and some will sit right on 160F going down the freeway with the converter locked.

Make sure the true cold viscosity (not the 40c rating) is thin enough for your climate and the 100c rating is not too thin and anything in between those two numbers are fine. Viscosity will slightly affect shifting but it's the level of FM that greatly affects shift quality.

I had no idea D4 has a VI of 198. That's extraordinarily high assuming there are no VIIs added. It has to be one hell of a base oil. What it means essentially that viscosity is less affected by temperature changes. It thickens less when cold and thins less when hot which is what you want. I think the literature states there are no VIIs but I would have to go back and read it again.

The stock fluid will have a significantly lower viscosity index so it will thicken more when cold and thin more when hot. The 40c and 100c ratings are just a small snapshot into the viscosity. It's fully possible for the much thicker Type F (at 40c and 100c) to be as thin as stock fluid on a cold start in a cold climate. I'm not saying this is for sure the case but something to think about. The transmission can operate over a huge viscosity swing considering a fluid like D4 even with a very high VI is still 30x thicker at 32F than it is at operating temperature. Others can be 60x or more thicker from cold to hot! That's why I don't sweat a 10cSt fluid vs a 7cSt fluid as long as it meets the minimum viscosity requirement.

If anyone is curious about viscosity, play with this calculator for a while and you'll see how the ratings and viscosity index play out in real world conditions: http://widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html
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Old 07-31-2012, 11:07 PM
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came over from TSX and MDX fence I am currently running D4 in 09 MDX and it shift great, much better than Z1. I found it strange no one talking about this Redline Racing ATF formula in MDX forum, i thought... MDX have 5AT similar to the TL. is MDX having a different transmission? thanks
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:05 PM
  #391  
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I know this was probably already answered but how long can you drive between each tranny flush when doing the 3x3?
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:26 PM
  #392  
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I am planning on doing another 1x3 soon and am wondering what fluid I should buy.

I did the 3x3 a little over a year ago with full racing fluid.

Then about 6 months ago I did a 1x3:
1qt racing & 2qts D4.

My question is what should I do my next 1x3 with in order to maintain a good mixture?
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by quanaman View Post
I am planning on doing another 1x3 soon and am wondering what fluid I should buy.

I did the 3x3 a little over a year ago with full racing fluid.

Then about 6 months ago I did a 1x3:
1qt racing & 2qts D4.

My question is what should I do my next 1x3 with in order to maintain a good mixture?
Love the rims what are they?

And you wont go wrong with 1x racing 1x lightweight and 1x d4. Im doing all 3x3 with that mixture
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:08 AM
  #394  
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Originally Posted by 05NBPTL View Post
I know this was probably already answered but how long can you drive between each tranny flush when doing the 3x3?
well there are couple reasons why i picked a 1000 mile interval:

1> i used to drive almost 1000 miles a week and hence it made sense to me to pick a little higher mileage
2> i wanted to introduce the new fluid slowly as i was at 147K miles
3> i hate draining out new fluid....so if you drive 4-5 minutes and drain, you are draining a lot of the brand new fluid u just poured in....

now if you dont drive as much, i would pick a 200-250 miles interval and keep an eye on how your car responds to the new fluid....

Originally Posted by quanaman View Post
I am planning on doing another 1x3 soon and am wondering what fluid I should buy.

I did the 3x3 a little over a year ago with full racing fluid.

Then about 6 months ago I did a 1x3:
1qt racing & 2qts D4.

My question is what should I do my next 1x3 with in order to maintain a good mixture?
let me post this up first:
Drain and fill percentage:
1=39.5%
2=63.4%
3=77.8%
4=86.6%
5=91.9%
6=95.1%
7=97.0%
8=98.2%
9=98.9%
10=99+%

so a 3x3 with Type F gets you to 77.8% of new fluid and 77.8% of Racing fluid....you want to keep the racing fluid at 65%

then you did a 1x3 with 1 racing and 2xD4...so now you have 86.6% new fluid and 72.6% Type F fluid....

if you do another 1x3, i would do the same, 1 racing and 2xD4...so you will have 91.9% new fluid and 67.39% Type F fluid....

once you get to this...going forward just do a 2xType F and 1xD4...this will keep you at ~65-66% Type F fluid....or do a 1xType F, 1xLightweight and 1xD4....this will keep you at the same 65-66% Type F fluid all the time....

Hope this helps
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Old 08-08-2012, 04:14 PM
  #395  
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I did 2 1x3s with racing. What should i do my 3rd and 4th 1x3 with? Thanks for any help
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Old 08-08-2012, 04:25 PM
  #396  
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^^^ just when i was replying to your PM LOL....

check the about drain and refill percentages....2 drain and refills will bring you to 63.6% Type F fluid....

so going forward just do: 1xType F, 1xLightweight and 1xD4....this will keep you at 65% Type F fluid and closer to stock viscosity
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Old 08-08-2012, 04:58 PM
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^^lol. Thanks bro. Should i stick with this from here on out?
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Old 08-12-2012, 05:07 PM
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Talking

I've been watching and reading this thread for some time now but would still appreciate some clarification on how I should go about to get the redline in to my 07 TL-S. I'm getting close to reaching 58k on what I'm going to assume is the stock atf fluid bought the car with 48k. What steps do I take?

1x3:?
2x3:?
3x3:?
4x3: do I need to do a fourth?

Should I replace the pressure switches right away or see how the ones I currently have take to it?
Thanks guys.
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:37 PM
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1x3:?
2x3:?
3x3:?
4x3: do I need to do a fourth?


WTF does this all mean?
Can some one Please help out?
I want try this redline
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:38 AM
  #400  
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There's a lot of info on this board about this, but to get you going here's a quick explanation.

The transmission contains a little over 8 quarts of fluid. Draining the fluid will only bring out about 3 quarts because there is fluid trapped in the gears and torque converter. This is known as a 1x3. Doing a single drain and fill (1x3) of the fluid will only freshen up the fluid as only 40% has been replaced. If you drive through all the gears to get the fluid to mix together then do another 1x3, now you've replaced a bigger percentage of fluid.

Doing this three times would be a 3x3.
Doing this a fourth time would be a 4x3.

Here is the table of how much fluid has been replaced after each consecutive 1x3:

Heres the drain/fill percentage chart
1=39.5%
2=63.4%
3=77.8%
4=86.6%
5=91.9%
6=95.1%
7=97.0%
8=98.2%
9=98.9%
10=99+%

So after a 3x3, you've replaced about 78% of the fluid. After a 4x3, you've replaced about 87% of the fluid.

Last edited by jhumbo; 10-08-2012 at 10:41 AM.
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