The Optimal Percentage of Racing ATF
 

THE OPTIMAL PERCENTAGE OF RACING ATF IS 65%.


To obtain the optimal percentage, please follow one of the procedures below that best fits your current situation.




For anyone that is beginning to use Racing ATF for the first time

Refill #1 = 3 quarts Racing ATF
Refill #2 = 3 quarts Racing ATF
Refill #3 = 2 quarts Racing ATF + 1 quart D4

The above will produce a 65% Racing mixture.

For any subsequent refills (If you choose to do any additional refills in the future), you should use 2 quarts Racing ATF and 1 quart D4. This will maintain a 65% Racing mixture indefinitely.




For anyone that has already completed a 3x3 using all Racing ATF

You currently have a 79% Racing mixture. To avoid possible flaring issues and unnecessary minor clutch wear in the future, I advice that you take remedial action to lower the percentage.

You should do a single refill (your Refill #4) as shown below.

Refill #4 = 2 quarts D4 + 1 quart Racing

The above will produce a 60% Racing mixture.

For any subsequent refills (If you choose to do any additional refills in the future), you should use 2 quarts Racing ATF and 1 quart D4. The Racing percentage would be gradually approaching 65% with each subsequent refill.




For anyone that has already completed a 4x3 using all Racing ATF

You *MUST* take remedial action. You currently have a 87% Racing mixture. You must lower the percentage to avoid possible flaring issues and unnecessary minor clutch wear in the future.

You must do a single refill (your Refill #5) as shown below.

Refill #5 = 2 quarts D4 + 1 quart Racing

This remedial action will produce a 65% Racing mixture.

For any subsequent refills (If you choose to do any additional refills in the future), you should use 2 quarts Racing ATF and 1 quart D4. This will maintain a 65% Racing mixture indefinitely.

THE PROBLEM

I finally experienced a drivability issue due to having too little friction modifier (FM).

What seemed to be just overnight, I developed a RPM flare during the 3-4 gear change. It would flare approx half of the time. Light acceleration or hard acceleration, it would flare just the same. Even in SportShift mode too. But, the flare was only during the 3-4 shift. Sometimes it would flare up by 200 RPM. Whereas other times it would flare by 400 RPM. When I was getting into the throttle fairly heavy, causing a loud exhaust due to PCD, it would sound like crap and be very embarrassing because it sounded like a manual trans being shifted by someone that didn't know how to shift properly... very embarrassing.

Hoping it would eliminate the flaring, I promptly changed my 3rd & 4th trans switches, which had not been changed before. The new switches did not eliminate nor reduce the flaring.

This flaring situation also made me realize that my trans has not been shifting as crisp and quickly like it did after I first switched to the Redline Racing ATF. You know how it is... it is easy to not notice something that gradually changes over a long period of time. But upon reflecting on it, I could easily see that the shifts had become sluggish over time.

Originally, after I had did my second refill with Racing ATF, my trans shifted AMAZINGLY. To see my original post where I described the awesomeness, click here. In that original post, I described it as follows. "While doing a 5 mph - 80 mph onto the freeway with heavy throttle, the trans ripped every gear….. hard, quick shifts. I can only imagine what the car sounds like from the outside (I have PCD). To me, it sounded like a good motorcycle rider on a superbike shifting gears."

Bah, bah, bah

Not…… Bah, silence, bah, silence, bah.

However, since my original second refill with Racing ATF, my shifts had gradually been becoming sluggish again. In the recent few months, the shifts had returned to

Bah, silence, bah, silence, bah. :angryfire :tantrum:



CLUES

As good luck would have it, one week later after replacing the 3rd & 4th trans switches to no avail, it was time for an engine oil change. I always change my ATF every time I do an engine oil change. To my surprise, the flare was gone after changing the engine oil and atf (at this point I was still using all Racing ATF). This gave me a strong clue that the flare was related to insufficient friction modifier.

When I was originally researching the feasibility of using Racing ATF, I learned from one of the SAE Papers that detergents in the ATF will act like a friction modifier. The fresh detergents in my Racing fluid (that I had just added) caused my flaring to temporarily stop (in spite of increasing the Racing percentage to 92%).

I regularly experience this "detergent effect" in my wife's car. I use Racing ATF in the wife's RL too. And, I also change the RL's ATF with every engine oil change. In the past, I had always noticed that the RL would suddenly develop firmer (more harsh) shifting as time became closer for an engine oil change (approaching 6000 miles). Thus, this experience with the RL greatly contributed to my detergent theory. By the way, the 2003 RL does not cut the throttle between shifts. It does not have DBW.

This also explains why my flaring appeared almost overnight. Detergents will breakdown with usage. My ATF mixture had reached a tipping point with the broken-down detergents and 87% Racing ATF. At the time that I noticed the flaring, my most recent ATF change had 6000 miles on it, and thus the detergents had lost their ability to act like a friction modifier.



THEORIES

Upon realizing that I had a flaring issue, I tried to develop possible theories to explain what I was experiencing. The one and only theory was that the trans needs a small amount of friction modifier to allow the clutch packs to slip easily when disengaged (freewheeling). Perhaps with no FM, the clutches are grabbing too much when the pack is supposed to be disengaged. That is, the open (disengaged) packs are experiencing too much drag and consequently spinning-up the engine between shifts.

The flaring is absolutely not slippage. My clutches still grab with authority, even during the particular shift that has the flaring. The flaring occurs during the time that the ECU has the throttle closed. So, this is what led me to believe that something else, like clutch-pack drag, was causing the motor to spin-up during the time period when the ECU has the throttle closed.

To verify this theory, I performed some data logging to record the throttle position (ATP) and engine RPM. The logging confirmed that the throttle is closed during the flaring event. Thus, the logging supported my theory that something else is causing the rise in RPM (flaring), not the ECU applying throttle. Also, the logging rules out that the trans is slipping. The trans can not be slipping (causing the increase in RPM) if the engine is supplying no power at the time.

Looking for more clues to support my theory, I went digging in my old SAE Papers that I had purchased when I was researching the feasibility of using the Racing ATF. I very much did find some information that could support my theory.

According to the SAE Paper entitled "Static Friction - What It is, What Affects It", automatic transmission clutches "can cause catastrophic results if they begin to slip. If the static friction is lower than required, the clutch slips, creates excessive heat and fails prematurely. On the other hand, if the static friction is higher than expected, it may interfere with the clutch disengagement and may contribute to undesirable shift quality" (SAE Technical Paper No. 941034, page 3).

There appears to be a balancing act between maximizing the static friction in the engaged clutch versus minimizing the friction in the disengaged clutches. This becomes more important when we realize that there is *one* clutch pack that is engaged and *four* clutch packs that are disengaged (freewheeling) at any given time in the TL transmission.

On one hand, a minimal amount of FM is desired to allow the clutch to engage as quickly and firmly as possible to minimize clutch wear and minimize heat production. On the other hand, too little FM could cause clutch wear and heat production in the freewheeling (disengaged) clutches and also during the engagement/disengagement process of the clutches.

The SAE Paper also implies that unnecessary heat can be produced by the pack "adhering" too much during the engagement process [dynamic friction] (SAE Technical Paper No. 941034, page 7).

Therefore, one could draw the conclusion that having some amount of FM is desirable to reduce pack temperatures and reduce clutch wear created by unintentional drag in the freewheeling (disengaged) clutches and during the engagement/disengagement process.

This would explain why I found more clutch material on my magnetic drain plug during my most recent fluid change versus the previous time that I drained my fluid.



ONE OTHER REPORTED CASE

It is plausible that having too little FM had caused one Acurazine member to have his trans replaced due to flaring (click here). This one person might had experienced the flaring due to manufacturing tolerances. That is, he may have had a clutch pack with too little clearance (compared to a typical TL) and caused excessive drag when combined with the reduced FM. If so, reducing the percentage of Racing ATF, or reverting back to Z1, would had eliminated the flaring.



REMEDY

"And so we go back to the remedy...
Clip the wings that get you high, just leave them where they lie"

Seeing that I had the best shifting experience after the original second refill with Redline Racing, I proceeded to reduce my current Racing percentage (92%) to be the same as it was when I had originally completed the second refill, which was 65% Racing ATF.

With my Racing mixture now reduced to 65%, the flaring was absolutely and completely eliminated. Furthermore, the awesome double-clutch shifting had returned too. :victory:

Thus, we have learned that we must avoid having too little friction modifier. We have two data points that can be used to establish an upper limit to the Racing percentage in our mixture.

One data point is from my experience. We must avoid a 87% Racing mixture. The second data point is from chayos00 (click here). We must avoid a 79% Racing mixture.

The optimal value being 65% is based upon nothing scientifically derived nor anything absolutely concrete. Just a simple case of recognizing that I had the best shifting when my Racing percentage was 65%. Additionally, the 65% value provides a sufficient buffer from the upper limit that would induce flaring. I have experienced Racing mixtures at 0%, 40%, 65%, 87% and 92%. And, the 65% was truly an AWESOME shifting experience. The other percentages can't compare. And, I am thrilled to have that shifting performance back once again.

:wave:

wow. thanks for that post, inaccurate.

so...for someone like myself, who has already done a 3x3 with 6 qts racing and 3 qts lightweight + another 1x3 with 2 qts racing and 1 qt lightweight...

i should (at my next oil change/atf change) do 2 qts D4 and 1 qt racing? and call it a day?

Inaccurate:

1> After how many miles did you encounter the problem ? Miles from the first time you switch out from Z1 to Redline...
2> Do you think the problem might have been caused due to excessive experimentation ? going from couple different fluids to switching/drain and refill every so soon ?

The reason I ask is that I know IHC is running the Type F for 60-80K miles (if am not mistaken) without a problem....

You think other engine mods have anything to do with this ?

Every time we switch the fluids/do a drain and refill, the gear change seems snappy and quick....do you think your feeling the same ?

PS: I am not attacking anything you said...I would cut a hole in my roof, if you did ask me to if it performs well....I trust you and your contribution to the site that much....so please dont think am attacking you....just trying to boil down to the bottom....

I was always concerned about the lack of FM in the fluids. I am currenty running D4 all the way and will be doing a 1x3 with Racing ATF soon. That should strike a ppretty good balance. Thanks for posting this Inaccurate :thumbsup:

@SharksBreath

Correct.

You are in the category of those that "has already completed a 4x3 using all Racing ATF".

And to maintain the same overall viscosity that you were aiming for originally, you would do the following

Refill = 2 quarts D4 + 1 quart Racing

@swoosh

No problem swoosh. I am very receptive to intelligent questions in the pursuit of knowledge.

My Z1 was drained when my car had just 14,700 miles. The Z1 is long gone.

I had been running entirely Mobil 1 Fully Synthetic ATF from 14,700 miles to 54,500 miles.

At 54,500 miles, I switched to the Racing. The flaring started at 68,500 miles.

In no way do I think that the flaring was caused by over experimentation. All of the fluids that I have used in my trans are fully compatible with one another.

Regarding IHC - I don't recall his percentage, but I would think that he had not completed more than 3 refills. With 3 refills, he would be at 79% Racing mixture (like many folks here on Acurazine). I had no flaring either at 79%. It was when I went to 87% that the flaring occurred. However, the 79% Racing mixture is too close to inducing flaring. It is below the threshold, but not by much. This is why I advise those that have completed a 3x3 with Racing to reduce their percentage.

In no way do I think that mods would be a variable other than having a louder exhaust to be able to hear the flaring if it was to occur.

Regarding the fresh fluid causing a different feel - I am confident of my finding and the remedy.

Please let me know if you have more questions.

P.S. - Don't cut a hole in your roof. :tongue:

^^^ hhahaa....only if you cut it LOL....and its functional then I will think about it and eventually do it haha....

back on the topic...I did a 4x3 at 150K miles....I have 155K now and the tranny seems fine...the only thing I noticed is that there is some fresh fluid on the tranny case....I have had this problem since I got the car at 60K that there was some residual fluid on the case, but with redline, I can see there is very very little fresh fluid....apparently, I saw the same with the engine oil....I have done tons of oil changed and I never see a drop on my drain bolt...i torque it right....but with redline i see a little surrounding my drain bolt....

I was thinking of going 60K without any fluid change....but if you are so confident, I might do a drain and refill with 2xD4 and 1xTypeF in the next 2K miles....

about engine oil, I am contemplating of going back to Penn Plat with Fram filter and an interval of 7500 miles....what do you suggest ? I hope redline is not affecting my seals/etc

^yeah i'm using redline 5w-30 engine oil as well.

i :love: redline...:smooch:

i did the 3x3 using redline d4, i guess im unaffected?

^^^ Yes...you just have a better Z1 in your tranny right now...I would look into doing a drain and refill using TypeF....

Im going to bookmark this thread. I will be doing the type-f my next atf drain and fill. Sill got another 30k miles lol.
gonna do:
Refill #1 = 3 quarts Racing ATF
Refill #2 = 3 quarts Racing ATF
Refill #3 = 2 quarts Racing ATF + 1 quart D4


Thanks for the info Inaccurate

I was thinking of doing a 1x3 on my next oil change (next week). I have never put redline in the system, should i be doing a 1x3 or a 3x3 as described by OP?

Thanks, sorry if thats the dumb question of the day

^^^ 3x3....

Ok from what I read and to my understanding this is for auto trannies right? Well what about manuals?

This makes me wonder... what if Honda got it right with the DW-1 and it has the optimal amount of FM?

Great post inaccurate. I, too, had a problem with my transmission. However I always thought my problem was the transmission slipping. It's the exact same situation as this guy: https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=816245
Is that what "flaring" is? I thought that was a slip. I had started a thread on my transmission problem too. Originally it was exactly like the guy in the link above, but gradually after a couple weeks it became much worse. Sometimes, a check engine light and the vsa button would light up, and when that happened it would block me from going to 1st and 5th gear. I always thought it was a slip because what I tried was that I used manual mode, then I would shift without pressing on the gas, and it would lag for a bit and then the rpms would slowly drop into gear.

Well that really bothered me because when the CEL and vsa light came on, the shifts would turn to complete crap and jerk really hard. its like as if a beginner driving stick and letting off the clutch way too fast. So a couple weeks ago I took my car to a shop and got the transmission rebuilt. The shop put in new oem fluid after the rebuild and now my car shifts perfect. Your post makes me wonder if I should have tried putting new D4 fluid or something and see if it helped. However I was convinced that my 4 x 3 type F fluid was just fine and not causing the problem. I guess we'll never know now.

In no way does the new DW-1 come even remotely close to the same level of FM as a 65% Racing mixture. Night and Day difference. Honda would not dare to reduce the FM by that degree. They would have all sort of complaints from the typical drivers.

If among the Acurazine forum, many that try the Racing ATF complain of harsh shifting (aka, lunges :dunno:).

Thank you so much for this post. I too had exactly the same symptoms as you did and would happen more when going at an incline. I did 3x3 atf as everybody did and was lucky to still be covered by warranty so the tranny got changed. Im still a little weary to touch the tranny because of said incident and im out of warranty now. Maybe next oil change il have the guts to replace it with the new formula.

This applies to 5AT automatic transmissions only. It does not apply to the 6MT manual transmission.

Speaking in curiosity. If the racing atf is causing a problem when the % is too high, do you think its going to have a long term affect on durability of the transmission or components of it? I was a converted believer in this stuff before hand, but now I'm leary. Why risk even using a 65% mixture when auto makers dont even come close to that. Im simply talking out in questions, not attacking. Its seems like this atf is meant for more "spirited" driving. I like to get up and go every now and then but I dont want to be jerked when shifting. If anyone can reassure me, Id be much obliged.

Any input or advice from IHC?

Ah ha! I had issues with my all redline experience too! Hence I returned to DW1 and had no issues since!

Sadly, this is plausible. Especially seeing that you did a 4x3 and had a 87% Racing mixture.

I do not know exactly what programming logic the ECU (PCM to be more accurate) has. But in my opinion, based on loosely understanding the basic programming logic that Honda utilized, the dragging clutch theory (if true) could possibly cause the ECU/PCM to think that a major malfunction has occurred. During a major malfunction, the CEL and VSA light would come on and the trans would go into a severe limp home mode.

The videos in the link that you provided illustrates flaring. In the video below, watch the tach suddenly jump up by 500 RPM as the trans shifts at around 35 MPH. This is flaring.

Video courtesy of chayos00

http://youtu.be/mrGINBbb3Fc

What kind of issues did you have? With what product of redline did you use?

IHC is on vacation. He will be back in a few days.

Can you shed some light on my questions?

When you did the 3x3, what fluid did you use (brand and type and number of qts)?

I used straight up redline racing atf. I did a 3x3 and noticed that it was starting to shift pretty harsh, it shifted solid when I was gunning it but for stop and go it was harsh. So I did another drain and fill with 3x3 and still noticed harsh shifts, a thump that was shocking and abrupt. I know did a 3x3 with Acura's dw1 but I'm sure op's method is better since redline is a better fluid, full synthetic and resist temperature breakdowns.

Thanks for the feedback. Im thinking that just the D4 is going to be sufficient considering I dont race light to light. Im more of a casual driver that get sometimes gets up and go.

Your questions are fair . I was anticipating such reactions.

As I see it, the Racing ATF is for quicker shifts for performance reasons. The Racing ATF greatly increases the amount of torque that the trans can handle for those folks with forced induction and nitrous. And, the Racing ATF is used to greatly reduce the wear on the clutches.

I use it in my TL for performance reasons and to greatly reduce clutch wear, I use it in my wife's 2003 RL and the family 2002 TL-S to greatly reduce clutch wear.

If my theory is true regarding the clutches grabbing when the pack is disengaged, this might cause minor clutch wear. The wear would be in the magnitude similar to the wear experienced with using Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF or Redline D4 ATF. Nothing major. I base this on the amount of clutch material that I found on my drain plug after running the 87% Racing mixture for 6000 miles. We will need to wait a few months when I do my next fluid change to see how much material is on the plug while using the 65% Racing mixture. I am hoping that I will have a clean drain plug in 6000 miles from now while running the 65% Racing mixture.

Other than the above paragraph, I do not see any harmful long-term affects from running too high of a percentage of Racing ATF.

"Why risk even using a 65% mixture when auto makers don't even come close to that." Because auto makers want to sell cars. The buyer wants to not be able to feel the slightest hint of a shift. Heaven forbid if the driver was to experience a 0.000001 g-force during a shift. The buyer demand seamless shifts, and the auto maker wants to sell cars. So, the auto makers dumps in a lot of FM to make the trans slip very gentle into the next gear, while grinding away the clutch material. The auto maker wins and you lose when your car is out of warranty and the trans needs to be replaced in 60k or 100k miles because all of the clutch material has been rubbed away.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

However, I believe that a person must be willing to endure a harsher shift in return for a trans that will live much much longer. If a person is not willing sacrifice a butter smooth shift, then that person should not use Racing ATF in my opinion. Can't have the cake and eat it too.

No hard feelings. You had good questions. Please let me know if you have more questions.

I agree with the above.

I believe that a person must be willing to endure a harsher shift in return for a trans that will live much much longer. If a person is not willing sacrifice a butter smooth shift, then that person should not use Racing ATF in my opinion. Can't have the cake and eat it too.

This is for AT...For manuals google GM syncromesh....a lot of people on here are using that....

NOPE...DW1 resist temperatures a little better than Z1....the reason they will no reduce the FM's is FM's directly relate to the smoothness of the shifts....more the FM's smoother the shifts....less the FM's snappier hence harsher the shifts....

FM's related to the shifts as I mentioned....the reason why TL's tranny is coughing up high % of racing fluid is because of the complete absence of FM's...am assuming the we need some FM's in the tranny to shift...

he will agree with Inaccurate :snicker:

did you do a 3x3 or 4x3 ?

Or did you did a 3x3 followed by another 3x3 all using the Redline Type-F....this means you had absolutely NO FM's and hence the crazy shifts....thats like you had 90%+ of the type F in your tranny....

True except for one area.

IHC does have a different approach than me regarding the harshness of the Racing ATF. IHC's approach is that the Racing ATF will produce a smoother shift than the Z1. This is true in many cases. People on our forum do report that their shifts are smoother with the Racing ATF.

However, some people do experience shifts that are harsher than they expected and/or willing to endure when they switch to Racing ATF. And, this is my approach.... for any new user of Racing ATF to expect the worse case scenario. I believe that a person must be willing to endure a harsher shift (*if* it indeed does become more harsh) in return for a trans that will live much much longer. If a person is not willing sacrifice a butter smooth shift, then that person should not use Racing ATF in my opinion.

Since I got my TL I've done 2 changes with Castrol Multi-vehicle ATF (meets Honda spec), and one with the Redline type F racing. My thought was to clean it out with the cheap stuff before changing in the Redline. The fluid looked a little dirty when I got the car. I liked the firmer feel after adding the Redline, but I already decided future changes would be 1 quart of Redline with 2 quarts of synthetic ATF with FM. Call me a geezer, but any firmer and I call the shifts harsh. So for me the ideal mix is 33% racing ATF.

thanx Inaccurate :thumbsup:

Thanks for the tip :thumbsup:. As of now I'm doing my flush/filling tranny fluid every oil change until I hit 3x3. I'm going in for my 2x3.

Regarding the firmness of the 65% Racing mixture -

Contrary to what you would think, the Racing ATF has the most firm (harsh? :dunno:) shifts (and quickest too) with the 65% mixture. :victory:

When I was at a 87% and 92% Racing mixture, the shifts were as slow as oem and not that firm feeling. :puke:

However for you forced induction people, this does not mean that the 65% Racing mixture has more holding power than the 92% Racing mixture. I still think that a higher percentage of Racing ATF would have a higher torque holding capability.

I used redline racing type f atf and did 3x3 all at the same day with a little driving in between to move the fluids around. Its flaring so hard that even my wife who doesnt know anything about cars complained about it and even told me to trade in the car for the mdx because of how rough it is.

I'm curious about something....sorry for asking a noobie question. Do most of you guys fill it with 3 quarts?.... my cousin filled mine up with 3.5 quarts. I'm using 2.5 quart of Type F and a quart of lightweight.