N1h1l1ty

^

Kind of the only semi-affordable Canadian option I've found ...

polobunny

Seems decent. Thanks for the suggestion!

guitarplayer16

iTrader: (8)

I ordered mine from a local shop who sells Redline products.
I was ecstatic to hear they carried Redline products because as most of you Canadians know, finding this stuff local is very difficult. Pretty sure they're the only shop in town that carries Redline.

Same prices as Amazon, except I don't have to pay shipping or anything else.
It arrived a day after I ordered too. They keep lots of D4 and D6 in stock, but not Type-F and Lightweight.

I'm sure there's a shop somewhere in Montreal to order from.

polobunny

Yeah that's the thing, I need to find where. As you pointed out nobody seems to carry Redline so it's always an expensive order from the net.

N1h1l1ty

Free shipping on any order over 25$ from Amazon, just saying

If you find it locally, great - I for one didn't bother searching as Amazon was just way easier and cheaper than anything I could find in the GTA

Scottwax

"thin" Type F? Do you mean a synthetic version? Debating whether to go with D4 or a Type F now that I have most of the Dextron III + Lubegard Honda additive replaced with DW-1.

eg-r

I order from JEG and was also free shipping . My prime Amazon cost a little more.

TheRB

Does this mixing ratio also applies if I use amsoil instead of read line ATF?

polobunny

Question goes here since I can't get a hold of IHC.

Looking for a decent mix for my 3rd gen TL 5AT. Since I'm in Canada, temps can drop to -25F/-32C during winter, and during summer it reaches 90F/32C so I need something that behaves in both climates.
I believe running Red Line Type F at 65% and rest Red Line D4 would be fine for summer but might not be ideal for winter.

I have no issues using D4 only if it's too much of a hassle to mix and match everything, it should still be nicer than DW1.

Acura_TL

Here's what I use for my 3x3's....(I'm in Wisconsin, so it gets below 0 quite a bit here too).

Refill #1 = 1 qt. Racing ATF, 1 qt. lightweight Racing, 1 qt. D4
Refill #2 = 1 qt. Racing ATF, 1 qt. lightweight Racing, 1 qt. D4
Refill #3 = 1 qt. Racing ATF, 1 qt. lightweight Racing, 1 qt. D4

If you want to go a little thinner, sub out D4 and use D6.
If you want to go really thin, use 2 qt. lightweight racing instead of 1 qt. regular 1 qt. lightweight.

I believe earlier in this thread we discussed viscosity.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

PB, yes...

the Redline is a better fluid than DW1...

So I have been running 2xType F and 1XD4...the only thing with that is, the fluid is very very thick when compared to stock...yes, it protects better but too much can be a bad thing...I am thinking of mixing the following 1xLightweight 1xType F and 1xD4 for the next run

For you, since temp drops even lower than here in KS (we are around 0-10degs in the winter) with a wind chill of -10 to -5 degs (all temps in F), I do recommend 1xd4, 1xtype f and 1xlightweight...if you want to play it safe, 2xd4 and 1xlightweight is what I would do

guitarplayer16

iTrader: (8)

I've had the Redline mixture done in late February/early March I believe, when it was still cold out.

I used the following:
Type-F,Type-F, Lightweight
Type-F, Lightweight, Lightweight
Type-F, Lightweight, D4

I rarely drive in the winter, but it feels like its been shifting better in the warmer weather.
I plan on sticking with Type-F, Lightweight, D4 mixture for any future drain/refills.

I can't comment on how it drives during December/January, but we shall see how it shifts, if my transmission lasts until then at least.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

WOW 8xRacing and 1xD4...its a good thing you are introducing D4 otherwise you would see some flaring Thanh...

I started getting flaring in the winter after a 5x3 with Type F....

krutou

I strongly recommend against 2 qt Lightweight and 1 qt D6. I ran this combo and it was great for about 8K mi (started at 50K mi, and had crazy shudder issues near the end, 6 months in. The fuel economy was amazing (easily 26 MPG in heavy traffic with an average speed of 30-35 MPH, and 29-32 MPG in 95% traffic-free highway, averaging 65-80 MPH).

It started with a shudder under ultra-light throttle at 30 MPH between gear 2 and 3. After 1K mi, I started getting shudder between 4 and 5 at 50 MPH. Near the end there was a huge jerking motion during the 4th to 1st downshift after slowing from 40-50 at a red light.

Changing the ATF filter and cleaning the solenoid screens filters had no effect, neither did a 1x3 with Castrol Multi-Vehicle Import ATF. Switching out the 3rd and 4th gear pressure switches eliminated the 4-1 and 4-5 shuddering, but I still had light shuddering between 2-3.

On a whim, did a 5x3 during which I switched to 35% Amsoil Fuel Efficient ATF and 65% Amsoil Racing ATF with viscosities closer to Honda Z1/DW-1. (2x3 with random garbage Castrol Multi-Vehicle Import, then the standard 3x3 with Amsoil ATF) This fixed all of my shuddering problems, but my fuel economy went to shit. I'm lucky to break 26 MPG, and am usually sitting at 23-24 MPG.

For anyone who is interested, I posted a more comprehensive list of signs & symptoms on page 14.

I hate cars

There are several big issues.

First, switches must be replaced before or during the swap to any type F type fluid and they must be replaced every 2-3 years regardless of fluid type of mileage. The switches were your problem in this case, not the fluids, as indicated by the huge improvement in shudder when you swapped them.

The same fix could have been achieved with switches and leaving the Type F/D6 combo in there. I've been on pure type F for 60,000 miles and I've never had a shudder but I replace the switches often.

The real problem is in the order you swapped things out. The switches probably would have completely fixed it with the D6/LW Racing but you had already put a highly friction modified Castrol fluid in there. So now you have a slippery fluid and good switches so it only shuddered a little because the Castrol is too heavily friction modified. Once you went back to a fluid with less FM like your original brew of Redline the shudder went away. There's an order things need to be done in and you were using drastically different chemistries and all over the place with your fluids.

It's not right to recommend against the D6/Type F combo to others when the problem you had was with the switches and not the fluid. Maybe the mandatory changing of the switches needs to be added to the OP in this thread.

The only way your new blend is hurting mpg is if it's slipping or the converter is not locking. Otherwise it's fine. No fluid no matter how thick or thin will give more than .5mpg change. You probably need a larger sample size, just drive the car more and mpg will average out to be normal. You can't estimate a % city and % highway when talking mpg. The only valid way is average mph as indicated by the MID. Nothing has as much effect on mpg as average mph. Your change in mpg is probably from a change in average mph. I have a feeling everything is fine now.

I hate cars

I try not to read these threads lol.

For a year round -25F to 90F fluid in the Redline brand, for the best viscosity I would do 2 quarts of lightweight racing and 1 quart of D4.

Another solution would be 1 quart of lightweight racing and 2 quarts of D4.

Usually it's better to err on the heavy side but these transmissions don't like thick ATFs so those in cold climates have to pay special attention to viscosity. Dw-1 is very thin in the cold so I think Honda noticed this too.

The reason behind my recommending D4 and lightweight is this... D4 has a very high viscosity index of nearly 200. It's going to thicken less in the cold and thin out less when hot. At operating temp it's a "normal" 7cSt viscosity.

For you, D4 should be one of your fluids. It would be fine all by itself too as far as strictly viscosity is concerned. Compared to D6, D4 is thicker at operating temp but thickens less when cold to the point that in your climate the D4 is considerably thinner at startup. D6 has a lower VI.

The LW Racing fluid is just over half the viscosity of D4 at operating temp. It is a Tyoe F so frictionally it's the same as the Racing Type F. It also has a lower VI but since it starts off so thin it won't hurt in cold weather and should help a little. I suggest at least one quart of LWRacing just to reduce the FM level and give nicer shifts along with thinning the fluid a little. It's your call if you want to do 2 of the LWR or 2 of the D4.

For what it's worth I'm running 2 quarts of LWR in my hot climate and it's working great. Inaccurate used all LWR fluid in a similar hot climate with no issues. We rarely see a hard part failure so a thick fluid really isn't needed. I did it because I had what seemed to be the beginning of the TCC dragging and this fixed it. I also did it to see if the thin fluid would raise the stall speed of the converter and it did slightly but that's a different thread.

N1h1l1ty

Nice to see you chime in on the longer term implications of the Type F IHC. I'm in a similar climate as PB, and I've been seriously considering the Amsoil Supershift / regular Amsoil fluid combination because of the viscosity concerns. The Lightweight / D4 combo, forgoing the regular Type F is an interesting suggestion I might now consider.

polobunny

Tried sending you a pm a while ago Matt when I posted this question but your box was full. I've since then just started using D4 alone which is fine by itself anyway.

krutou

The switches were swapped while the LW+D6 combo was in place. While the switches alleviated some shuddering, the 2-3 shudder still remains.

I have nothing against type F, as I am currently on 65% type F.

When you say you're on pure Type F, is this Redline Lightweight or Redline Racing? My problem only arises with the low viscosity found in LW.

How does increasing FM cause shudder (closer to stock, which does not have shudder).

In fact, my first Castrol swap did in fact reduce shudder, for a short period of time.

I think you're misunderstanding. I do not recommend against Type F or D6.

I recommend strongly against ultra-low viscosity ATF, which would be the above quoted 2x LW + 1x D6. 100% D6 is fine. Too high a percentage of LW ATF, with its ultra low viscosity is what cause my problems. Your suggested 2x LW + 1x D4 doesn't have problems because D4 is naturally high viscosity, balancing out the LW.

My primary difference was trying to be clever and use low viscosity ATF, something few had tried.

In gears 1-4, the TC is not locked...

Which is what I used...

I've been taking the exact same 26 mile route every day for a year. 8 months on low viscosity LW/D6and 3 months on Amsoil. I always reset the MID each trip, and I average MPH/MPG is logged via MID.

I hate cars

Please bear with me if I'm not understanding, I'm very tired right now. Also, I'm going over to check out that Amsoil Fuel Efficient ATF right now. It's probably their version of Dex VI but if not, it would be kind of neat to run a high VI fluid if that's what it is. Thanks for pointing that fluid out. I need to get out and look around more often.


That's not what you said in your post which is kind of confusing. You gave this timeline:

Changing the ATF filter and cleaning the solenoid screens filters had no effect, neither did a 1x3 with Castrol Multi-Vehicle Import ATF. Switching out the 3rd and 4th gear pressure switches eliminated the 4-1 and 4-5 shuddering, but I still had light shuddering between 2-3.

I got filter, cleaning the screens, then a 1x3 of Castrol, which did nothing and then the switches, which finally eliminated everything but the light shudder between 2-3. Last, you did the mix of the Amsoil DexIII equivalent and Type F equivalent and the problem went away but this was all after the Redline was out of the system and the switches had been swapped. I'll go read the signs and symptoms on page 14 as you referenced.

The easy way to rule viscosity out is when these problems occurred. If the problems were there in the first few minutes when the fluid was still cold and relatively thick, it can't be the viscosity. If it only happened once at full operating temp, it could be the viscosity.
I just recently switched to 2x LWR and 1x D6 just to try it out. Before this last change I was on pure Racing Type F for about 70,000 miles. My converter clutch just began dragging in the lower gears a little but only when cold so I knew it was related to the viscosity of the fluid. The transmission has a problem but the thicker fluid seems to make it worse so I swapped over to the LWR and D6 to thin things out considerably. The D6 is just there to thicken it up a little. The D4 is the better low temp fluid since it has a much higher VI but since it never gets below 32F here, the D6 is the thinner fluid in my climate upon start-up. It gets up to 110F on occasion out here and my car sees Vegas and Phoenix fairly regularly. I also have a cooler which allows me to run a thinner fluid before seeing problems.

Stock fluid most definitely has caused TONS of shudder. Just go back about 4-5 years on here when there was almost one new post a day on shudder with the stock fluid that was cured with a Type F fluid. The stock fluid had too much FM and this, along with pressure switches that have a lifespan of only 2-3 years which also increase slippage was a recipe for disaster. The pressure switches control shift timing and DBW timing which is extremely important for transmission clutch life and driver perceived comfort. I don't think it's any accident that by most accounts, DW-1 has less FM than Z1 even though we all knew Z1 was crap due to the base oil and FM level years earlier.
That's fine, but in your last post and quoted above you said it made no difference.

Ah, got it. When you said D6 and LWR fluid, I automatically assumed Type F and D6 by itself, not the LW version of Type F or combined with D6.

I suggested the LWR and D4 (not D6) because the guy lives in a very cold area and wanted a fluid that will work year round. 2x of LWR and 1x D4 in his climate at -25F is still MUCH thicker than straight D4 or D4 + Racing Type F in my climate. Or put another way, the suggested D4 + LWR for him is not thin at all for 6 months of the year.

It's important to note that D4 is slightly thicker at full operating temp but it's thinner in cold climates at startup than D6. If Redline is the brand of choice, D6 makes more sense for people like myself that use the car for mostly short trips. It has a lower VI than D4 that suggests it might be more robust, using no viscosity index improvers (VIIs). On the flip side, it meets the Dex VI hot viscosity requirements which is a little thinner than the D4/DexIII specs but it also tends to thicken a little quicker as the temps drop. So in my climate that rarely sees a freezing day and most startup temps are in the high 40s in the winter, and my garage stays around 75-80F in the summer mornings, it's the perfect fluid. It starts out thinner than D4 and it's a little thinner at operating temp which it may or may not ever hit.

Speaking of climate changes making a difference in which viscosity to use and what's considered thin in which climate, I use a good ATF cooler which make fluid selection simpler. It narrows the operating temp range my fluid has to deal with. It's dead on 155-160F on the freeway and runs 30F cooler around town. So, even though I use a lighter fluid than most, it's a win-win. Upon startup it's lighter which is great. It never gets as hot as most people running around in my climate. It's more like running around with a maximum ambient temp of 75F with no cooler so my thin fluid is actually thicker than it might seem at full operating temp. I get a thin fluid upon startup and the protection of a thicker, more robust fluid at operating temp. It's just another reason to run a good cooler.
I'm not one to condemn trying something new. Almost every fluid in my car is what most consider unacceptable including the Redline High Temp ATF in the power-steering. Whether or not you can get away with it depends on your climate. Z1 and DW-1 are extremely thin in cold temps. They thicken less that just about any ATF I've seen in the cold. For some reason Honda wants to keep the fluid relatively thin at all times. Part of it may be mpg but ever since I noticed TCC dragging, in mine on straight Racing fluid in the winter and only for the first couple minutes before it got heat in it, I think there might be another reason for the better cold flow of the OEM fluid.

Inaccurate used straight LWR in his for quite a while in the hot Texas environment and was pretty hard on it.


It can lock in gears 2-5. Obviously only under light throttle and only once the rpms exceed the stall speed of the converter in 2nd and 3rd.

When you mentioned the MID average MPH you gave a range and you used the % city and % highway in your description which makes it sound like there was some estimating going on. Regardless, it's completely impossible to see those kinds of changes from a change in fluid viscosity. Even if you lived in Alaska and you only did short trips where the fluid never got up to full temp, it was always cold and thick, you're not going to see that kind of difference in mpg over a thinner fluid. If the changes are legit, I would be worried about slippage or the converter not locking when it should or a change in fuel, or something with the tires/engine/brakes dragging, etc. If a thicker/thinner fluid could make those kinds of changes, those in Alaska would be seeing a 10mpg impact over those of us in really hot climates. Adding a cooler would result in a big loss in mpg too, if viscosity made that kind of difference. I'm not trying to be smart, only trying to help out and point out that if you think your observations are accurate you need to start looking for much larger problems before it's too late.

krutou

Well, the shudder only happened at full operating temperature, definitely 30 minutes into a highway run. Plus, it only ever happens under ultralight throttle, which most Acurazine readers don't use. It was easy to get out of the shudder by applying a little extra throttle.

Personally, I haven't had shuddering problems up at 50K, 8 years, on Z1/(whatever the 3rd party mechanic put in).

My theory is that at operating temperature (reduced viscosity) with the already low viscosity 2xLW+1xD6 combo might throw a pressure? reading out of spec under low flow situations (light throttle).

It would be interesting to see if you'll have the same light-throttle shudder 5-10K down the line.

polobunny

Even with D4 here with brand new pressure switches (last Saturday) on ultra light throttle and being on the edge of a possible 2nd to 3rd gear swap, if I put it in 3rd it will usually shudder a bit more than "usual". If I go even 2 mph faster it won't and it will slide right in. Are you sure that's not what you're seeing?

I hate cars

Only at full temp does look more like a low viscosity problem. The switches have the most effect at light throttle. Near or at full throttle, the switches are not used for shifts.


In an automatic, the only thing that happens during a shift is a set of clutches releases and another set of clutches applies. No actual shifting occurs, all gears are always in mesh with one another. Shudder is when a clutch pack slips. It's actually a slip-stick where it slips and sticks many times a second to give you that 40 or 50hz frequency you feel and hear. Viscosity usually doesn't affect this as much as the frictional characteristics.


One of the problems is the clutch in the torque converter can shudder and it can feel just like the transmissions clutches. The TCC will usually shudder from too much FM which is the opposite of the transmission clutches so diagnosing which clutch is shuddering is important. Transmission clutches are not supposed to slip. The TCC is designed to slip a little. On a shift where the TCC is locked, it disengages during the shift and reapplies after the shift. This all happens in miliseconds and this is why a TCC shudder can feel an awful lot like a transmission shudder.


Once the transmission gets to old age and high mileage, it can have internal leakage past rings and seals which bleed off pressure and in this case, a higher viscosity will be better.


These problems were easy to diagnose over the internet years ago but as they age and each one becomes different due to different amounts and type of wear, it becomes harder and harder to recommend a fix that fits all transmissions.

polobunny

I'm not concerned at all for my case.

I started having more difficult 2-3 shifts only last winter and they have pretty much disappeared with RL D4 + pressure switches + tranny filter. The only occasion that abnormal shudder happens is while being very close to the line the 3rd shouldn't engage in manual mode. If I shift then, there's a small shudder that's slightly more noticeable than the normal transmission shift. The issue is resolved by going a bit faster by 2-3 km/h and then it's like any other shift.

I have good faith that the transmission will hold just fine for the rest of the life of the vehicle judging by the smoothness of the shifting and lack of issues. Maybe I'm just lucky, or maybe it's because I'm only at 94K miles.

I hate cars

Just try to drive around the shuddering. Shuddering is slipping so eventually it will take it's toll.

polobunny

Definitely will. It's just my commute in the morning is 6 minutes only city and therefore gets expensive on gas for the distance I travel. I'm too eager to get to 4th gear and cruise around as slow as possible.

jaredb03

I made the mistake of putting this garbage in my car with the 3x3 method
Castrol/Import multi-vehicle automatic transmission fluid 06814 at AutoZone.com - 2 reviews

Its been about 10k miles and im starting to get a shudder that is getting worse by the week it seems. I am wanting to do this racing ATF and D4 mixture but wasn't sure the combo i should use since i have already done the 3x3 and don't have the honda z1 stuff in it anymore. I don't know if this castrol crap is high in FM or Low??? What do you recommend?

MarcDavidoff

Curious..I've read thru this most of this thread before but never saw mention of anyone trying a standard Type F fluid mix with Dw1..?

PTN

Hello. i have 04 TL.

i read the threads about switching ATF back in 2012 and at 103K (all original factory fluid) i ran a case of Amsoil Super Shift through the tranny by pulling the outflow hose and shifting through gears on the lift while refilling. i did it again at 110K. All is well with tranny but recently i noticed some slight shudder under mild acceleration at low speeds. i am at 148K now and i want to add the regular ATF so i am not running pure super shift as per I Hate Cars recommendations. if i was to simply drain the pan and fill back 3-4 quarts of Amsoil Multi Vehicle ATF, would this give me an optimal percentage of FM?
Thanks for any help in advance.

PTN

one thing to add is that i also just swapped out my 3rd and 4th gear pressure switches recently. i would think that any shudder i am experiencing is not due to the switches since they are new. one thing puzzled me though was that the 3rd gear switch i replaced was light grey but the replacement is black. The 4th gear switch i replaced was brown but the replacement is white. all this according to the new part numbers which are different from the originals. can someone confirm the colors of the replacement switches?

PTN

it would seem if the total is 7.4 qts, i would need just shy of 2.5 qts of non type F so i could simply drain 2.5 and fill with the same amount of Amsoil ATF. The question is... should i, or would more FM worsen any shuddering? maybe i should keep it all Amsoil Super Shift as it currently is. i'm not sure what's better at this point. maybe the fluid is not going to make the difference and i should be looking at other things like solenoids and valves etc.??

Cheval

I'm wondering how this has turned out with people that have followed this with their TLs? I did my 2008 TL with 19,000 miles 4-28-2012 and now have 29,500 miles and transmission works fine with nothing else added or changed (pressure switches, etc).

Refill #1 = 2 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF
Refill #2 = 2 qt Lightweight ATF + 1 qt Racing ATF
Refill #3 = 1 qt D4 + 1 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF

Hoping this thread dying doesn't mean the whole thing sucked or else looks like my transmission might need to be prayed for?

ResistaNce

worked great for my 05 tl. I replaced it at 140k and have 205k miles atm. Still shifting okay. This is better than getting it flushed. Do the pressure switches later on you have low miles. Could I buy your car lol?

hleapha

This whole topic has been an incredible success. It was very common for the transmissions to fail at 70k mi. Mine started slipping really bad around 80K. The problem was twofold. The Honda Z1 had too many friction modifiers and the 3rd and 4th pressure switches fell out of tolerance after about 70K. 5 years later and now I have 199k miles and this maintenance is keeping this transmission healthy as a horse. As a matter of fact, just this month my wife was complaining about high rev's and bad shifting. I got both switches from a vendor off ebay for $35 - changes them in 30 minutes and the car shifts great. I still do a single drain and fill every 20-30k with 2-D4 and 1-Type F "Racing". I've never messed with the lightweight. Ultimately, now that Z1 is no more, I feel the biggest issue is now the pressure switches. However, I have a huge new respect for changing ATF, which still has a lot of ney-sayers out there.

BTW, if you feel issues with shift quality, don't hesitate to change those switches- it's easier and less messy than changing the ATF by comparison. Very easy job.

Acura_TL

I think this thread has covered just about everything, plus the last year of this gen is now 10 years old and a lot of people have probably moved on to different cars.

I started the redline d4, racing, lightweight mixture around 65k miles when I bought the car. Changed it every 30k along with the switches.

Tranny was shifting just as good when I sold it at 197k as it was @65k.

I now have a car with supposedly "lifetime" fluid in, trying to decide if I should leave it alone, or start changing it.

Cheval

Awesome! Thanks for the replies! I feel good doing what I did now. Well, I did before, too, but I feel even better now.

BTW transmission shifts great with no problems so I haven't messed with the pressure switches.

Getting ready to do a 3X3 with DW-1 on my 2012 Accord V6. Case of it will be here later this week. I'm @ 56k miles on the Accord so it's about time me thinks.

Trav45

Acura_TL

If it were me I'd just stick with a mixture of D4 and racing. Or straight D4 if you don't want to bother with the mix. Redline still recommends D4 for the TL.

stevemk07

Silly kids... Racing fluid is for race cars.

losiglow

iTrader: (1)

That's why I use it. Because, well, racecar

My 3G was a 6MT but I use some redline ATF in my 4G 6AT and love it. Redline recommends D6 for the 4G. I use about 2:1:1 mixture of DW1, D6 and a 50/50 of LW racing and regular racing. So half is still DW1 but the other half is a combo of redline and redline racing. I didn't want to go too aggressive with it since there hasn't been as much experimentation done on the 4G as compared to the 3G. It's improved the "grab" of the clutches which is a welcome change. I've been using it for about 30K now and so far it's been great. With the quick locking TC the 4G AT has, I'll be sticking with the ratio I've got. I don't see any reason to increase it more.

You're going to be hard pressed to find anyone who's transmission died from using redline vs. DW-1 as long as they kept a reasonable ratio. If they used too much racing ATF it can cause problems - which has been discussed in the thread. The transmission still needs some friction modifiers.