Inaccurate

I am not following you. Where are you getting the 8 Racing quarts from?

the fenda rolla

The first refill of 2 Racing + 1 Lightweight
Second of 2 Lightwieght + 2 Racing
Third of 1 Racing + 1 Lightweight...

I guess that's where the 8 came from, since we don't count D4 as a type of racing fluid? Just wondering...

But I'm still wondering about the conflicting percentages for the 3x3...

the fenda rolla

That was a quote by inaccurate waaay back in the day on the original Racing ATF thread...

the fenda rolla

Ok, I think i get it:

Example 2
----------

A person is doing a 3x3 using all Racing ATF. They had no Type F fluid prior to doing this 3x3.


New Percentage decimal = [ ( Current Percentage decimal x 4.4 ) + newly added qts ] / 7.4

Refill #1 Percentage decimal = [ ( 0.0 x 4.4 ) + 3 ] / 7.4 = 0.40

Refill #2 Percentage decimal = [ ( 0.40 x 4.4 ) + 3 ] / 7.4 = 0.64

Refill #3 Percentage decimal = [ ( 0.64 x 4.4 ) + 2 ] / 7.4 = 0.65

Changing the last "3" in the 3rd refill to a "2" to compensate for the D4...

jhumbo

iTrader: (1)

You got it.

Just so everyone is clear the 4.4 comes from the 7.4 qts less the 3 qts that were just drained. In my formulas I explicitly spelled this out as (7.4 - 3) for clarity. Basically 4.4qts is the amount of previous fluid that will stay in the trans... and then you multiply it by your current percentage of Racing to keep track of how much is left.

FollowingNFront

Thanks for your help. After the second day of driving it with the 48% racing, I can honestly say the 2-3 gear shift is almost completely seamless... AND, I am in love with the fact that I now don't have that jarring, banging, JOLT a second after I put the car in reverse! I barely feel it now....

However, I really don't like the fact that now, everytime I take my foot off the gas, the car upshifts.... Ugh....

Anyway, in response to your post a bit earlier, I am very sensitive to the changes in driveability in my car. So much so that my girlfriend and dad hate it... They think I'm crazy... However, somehow, I think it keeps me sane in a weird way.

In your opinion, how would a 55% racing mix feel in comparison to my current 48% mix?

Also, how would a 62% racing mix feel in comparison to my current 48% mix?

I may do another D&R this weekend, but I want to find the right % for me, because I don't want jarring shifts and I don't want popping noises... I also don't want a crapload of debris on my drainbolt.

I hate cars

Let's not forget that the shifting pattern is determined by the electronics and hydraulics (1-2). A different fluid will not change the shift points, only the preception. Every auto will upshift when you take your foot off the gas unless it has some sort of sport mode and it's turned on.

Inaccurate

@ FollowingNFront

Did you recently change your pressure switches? The things that you are describing about the shift points changing sounds just like what I experienced when I changed my switches.

After the Refill #1 with Type F, a person would have a 40% mixture. After Refill #2, it would be a 65% mixture. This is how I had my first experiences with the racing fluid. So, I will be using these percentages as reference points.

The primary trait with the 40% was that the shifts were executed quickly. When I went from 40% to 65%, the trans became much more aggressive in everything that it did. And, for me, I love this trait. The shifts executed a bit quicker too than just the 40%.

You had ask about different percentages. It would seem logical that a 52% mixture, being mid way between the 40% and 65%, would offer slightly quicker shifts and slightly more aggressive behavior than the 40%.

From what I am reading from your post, I don't think you would be happy with a mixture higher than 40%. The 40% offers the lion's share of the improvements in shifting speed, which should translate into offering the lion's share of the clutch protection.

A percentage higher than 40% is entering into the beastly territory of the Type F's personality. A mixture higher than 40% is prone to deliver lunging during upshifts and downshifts, popping sounds, sudden jerks, clank sounds, rough shifts, rough gear engagement, and other beastly conduct.

The previous paragraph also explains why I like the stuff so much.

FollowingNFront

Yeah but, if having a high percentage of racing fluid in the trans makes for more gearholding, than it would affect the shift points as the trans is not shifting as much. I noticed less shifting and gearhunting when I had the 79% mix... Or so it seemed
I can deal with feeling the shifts. I can def deal with better performance for sure. I just don't want to deal with crazy sounds or Flaring though.... I will do a D&R with 2 D4 and 1 Racing either this weekend or next and see how I like it.

I hate cars

It makes for more clutch holding power which only affects shift quality. Shift points are solely determined by the ECU. It commands a shift and the shift happens. The fluid can only make the shift more or less detectable. "Gearholding" is not really a word. Gears obviously don't slip, only clutches slip.

leedogg

The best way to describe the shifting with an abundance of typeF is that the shifting felt like a manual shift...by somebody who doesnt know how shift very well. I did a single drain and refill of DW1 and the tranny is behaving much better now. I sortof want to revert to DW1 completely but I have a case of d4 & F I need to get through first.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ true....the absense of FM's will make it feel that way....

PROS of Type F:
Quick snappier shifts
Less Clutch wear
Doesnt breakdown as easy as DWI/Z1
More Viscosity
Synthetic
Heat has nothing on it LOL

CONS of Type F:
A little harsher shifts

I think the PROS do outrun the CONS on this one

Inaccurate

Right. I described my flaring in the same way. It was embarrassing to know that people around were thinking "dude, learn how to shift (that manual) already".

Please keep in mind that your new improved shifting is not due to DW-1. It is credited to lowering your percentage to be closer to the ideal 65% Racing mixture. I mention this because I would hate to see you erroneously praising the DW-1 in other threads for giving you excellent trans performance.

I hate cars

I still have not experienced this with at least 6 drains and fills. If I remember right you've done the switches already, right? What fill were you on when this happened. I was going to go at least 50k before doing another but this makes me want to swap it out a few more times to see what's going on.

Inaccurate

^ IHC,

With your six refills, you are at a 96% Racing mixture. So doing another refill will not increase your percentage any higher (practically speaking). Doing a seventh refill would make it 97%.

It seems that yours is immune. You and I both have 2006 models. I had the flaring and you don't. The flaring seems to be a crap shoot as to who gets it while having a mixture with too little FM.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ Inaccurate, thats why I mentioned before, is it because you have been through too many different types of fluid or because you do a drain and refill every 5K miles (if I remember right)....too much is not always too good....

I have done a 4x3 with type F which puts me at 87% and I have encountered 0 issues in 6K miles....

FYI: I have an 05...did the switches at 130K miles....fluid at 147K miles....its been 9K miles since 1x3 and 6K miles since 4x3....I am currently at 156K miles....Before that I bought the car at 62K miles....at 100K miles I started doing a drain and refill every 5K miles with Z1 along with my engine oil change....At 147K miles I switched to Redline Type F....

Inaccurate

I purchased my car brand new. In that time, my car has seen just one other ATF besides the oem Z1. I switched to Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF. I have not used any other ATF before starting to use the Redline.

Please explain your theory how refreshing the ATF with every engine oil change could induce the flaring?

In addition, IHC's car has had as many other different ATF's (if not more) as mine. Plus, probably close to as many refreshes too. I had flaring (that instantly vanished once I lowered my Racing percentage) and IHC has not had any flaring.

Most of the other cases of flaring from other members started after using the Redline after leaving the Z1. They had flaring while using no other types of ATF prior to switching to Racing ATF. Their flaring vanished instantly after lowering the percentage to the ideal 65% mixture.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ Let me mention here....I am not trying to personally attach you LOL...i do come off like that but I am a frank straight to the point person....

You have more knowledge than me....so you can prolly figure this out better....

I was told by IHC couple months back that switching your engine oil (synthetic) every 3K miles will do more bad that good. He mentioned some reason which I do remember and dont want to state wrong...maybe that was only for engine oil and am applying it to tranny fluid ? I wish I had that email or post....

Inaccurate

Hi swoosh,

I am very aware that you meant it as a friendly conversation. However for the sake of the readers, I felt that I must state my reply as I did to make sure that other readers are not thrown-off by your statement. This is an important thread. I do not want readers to be confused by static.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ you bet....I would hate some to PM me saying I (my comments) fudged his tranny up LOL...

Thanks for taking the post in its right sense

You get 1 brownie point !!!

Inaccurate

Now you know how I feel. No one has sent me a PM like that, but I do feel it just the same.

GeaugaDog

Glad I ran into this thread before I did my 3rd refill with all type F. Regardless of this issue you have to be a fool to keep using the stock fluid. Reliability > smooth shifts IMO

FollowingNFront

I know for a fact that there was a ton more engine braking that was very noticeable right before I did a D&R this past Sunday with 3 qts. of D4, bringing my % of Type F down.

Inaccurate

I am assuming that before doing your two refills with Racing ATF that you had Z1 in your trans. Normally, a person must do 3 refills to adequately flush out the old non-synthetic fluid.

After the two refills with Racing ATF, you currently have a 65% Racing mixture.

For your third refill (to adequately flush out the old non-synthetic fluid) and any subsequent refills (If you choose to do any additional refills in the future), you should use 1 quart D4 + 1 quart Racing ATF + 1 quart Lightweight ATF. This will indefinitely maintain a 65% Racing mixture.

Hacura

Why not just stick with the D4 all the way and occasionally throw in a little F?

roundup

Found an article in Transmission Digest which tried to explain why the third gear clutch burns out in a 2003 Honda 5 spd AT.
How does this correlate with what we see in Acura 5 speed AT's?

Just a few quotes:

"Third gear oil pressure was within 10 psi difference allowed between apply pressure and main line pressure. "

"On the third clutch, pressure was present during a forced 4-2 downshift but not as much during 5-2 downshift. "

"Why?

"It takes 3 steps to accomplish 4-2 downshift.
When Solenoid C was turned on for 0.3 seconds, CPC B oil pressure that was beginning to modulate to lower amperage increased in pressure. Because of the way the shift valves are placed by solenoids, this CPC B pressure starts to enter third clutch circuit through shift valve C circuit 5C, through shift valve B, then through shift valve A and finally through circuit 30, third gear clutch... "

"When Solenoid C was turned off again and SS B was turned on (0.7sec) , CPC B oil continued uninterrupted into circuit 30 third clutch, this time through circuit 5D at shift valve C, through shift valve B, through shift valve A and finally to circuit 30 at shift valve A..."

"The 2-3 shift can start immediately if the gas pedal is backed off slightly, by turning solenoid C on. This does not give the CPC B oil in circuit 30 enough time to exhaust. Because fo the 2-3 shift strategy, CPC B oil starts to enter again into circuit 30, or third clutch... "

"It is my opinion that this CPC B oil pressure present on a 4-2 forced downshift is dragging the clutches and contributing to an early third clutch failure. If we keep in mind that third clutches are also applied momentarily during the shift from Neutral to Drive and it requires only 36 psi to engage, we can imagine what 50 psi can do with the second clutch on with up to 130 psi. On my many road tests in this car, 4-2 downshift was a normal shift when I entered the freeway... "

"It is my opinion that by increasing the size of the third piston in 2004, Honda made the problem worse since you have 1 sq inch more application area. I believe the solution would require a software change for the PCM or else the third clutches would have to be made to take this kind of abuse without sacrificing 2-3 shift comfort..."

"There may be other reasons why Honda has decided to program it this way but trying to talk with the company did not produce any results...
(Raybestos) GPX plates seem to be the best choice at the moment because of their unique material and special grooved pattern that makes them run cooler when third clutches are being dragged..."

I hate cars

Great info, thanks.

So it should be fine in a 0-150mph blast but it's the downshifts that cause issues. I can see how Type F can cause wear issues when downshifting but slow the wear when doing a full throttle run up through the gears. My style is usually a run up through the gears, not a whole lot of punching it from a roll.

What a terrible series of events that has to happen for a simple downshift. This actually makes me wonder after saying the TL does not do a double downshift that maybe it's supposed to but 3rd get gets dragged so hard mometarily that it feels like it hits a higher gear before finally downshifting one more gear.

Honda has no business building auto transmissions. I've never seen such a horrible chain of events for a simple downshift. Remove the electronics and go back to full hydraulic control or let someone else make it.

Increasing the size of the 3rd gear apply piston (which I had never heard of until now) shows they were blindly throwing parts at it and praying and they had absolutely no idea why 3rd gear was failing.

The sad thing is I can see an easy change to the shift strategy that would eliminate the problem that would require as the article says a software update. To say they dropped the ball is an understatement.

As of now I'm neutral. With my rear main leaking the trans needs to come out soon anyway. Maybe I'll start doing a bunch of 4-2 downshifts.

So for those wanting the longest life, I have to assume at this point you would want to manually downshift one gear at a time in which case the Type F fluid would still be a valuable wear reduction since you wouldn't be dragging 3rd.

I've never heard of a trans dragging like that but I guess when the 3rd gear apply piston gets stray pressure clutches tend to apply lol. I can see how this would cause the flare that Inaccurate was talking about. So it's not a traditional flare, it's stray pressure applying 3rd gear and spinning the engine up as Inaccurate said.

I hate cars

I just finished the article. So doing a 4-2 downshift while immediately lifting off the throttle slightly will cause the most wear... 50psi apply pressure to 3rd while 2nd is fully applied? That's a serious bind. So driving style apparently plays a large role in this.

Inaccurate

I would normally let this go. But in light of a discussion in another thread, I feel obligated to "share"..... in spite of causing conflicts.

I totally disagree with this slam against the 5AT's downshifting ability.

I very much remember my oem TL. What a big sack of shit it was. Whenever the oem TL downshifted, it actually slowed down for a moment as if I had tapped the brake before it finally completed the downshift.

But, this is not really the fault of the trans. It is Acura's fault for piling on so much additional weight to the TL and slapping on that heavy ass crank pulley.

My 5AT in my car (not Acura's car) will ALWAYS flat out grab the downshift HARD and QUICK. When I engage in a race, my opponents are usually behind the 8-ball because of it. By the time they hear me wot, it is too late. The trans has completed the downshift and already began pulling teeth. There is no lag what so ever. Just a lighting quick display of downshifting prowess.

In the length of time that it takes me to go from casual acceleration to slamming the pedal to the floor, the trans has completed the downshift and has begun pulling already by the time the pedal smacks against the pedal stop. Regardless if the downshift was one or more gears.

So, it is not the trans. The trans is very excellent at downshifting. Get rid of a thousand pounds and get rid of that heavy crank pulley. Those are the problems. Not the trans.

I hate cars

2nd and 3rd being applied at the same time is a serious problem. 2nd with full line pressure and 3rd with 50lbs or 1/3 line pressure easily explains why 3rd wears out before any other clutch pack. 2nd has no slip, 3rd slips.

This is the ONE situation where I would say Z1 is the better fluid due to the additional FM. I never thought I would say that. The transmission design is so bad that clutch slippage can reduce wear in this one scenario.

Bert mostly using the sport shift (out of necessity) and Type F with the turbo explains a lot as to why his trans has lasted so long with double factory hp.

Inaccurate

I can think of another one for you. Perhaps some FM is needed to prevent the clutches from grabbing when they are supposed to be disengaged (and thus causing flaring).

At first, I was regretting that this topic got posted in my Optimal thread. But, I suppose that this topic might be OT in some regards.

trent_ky

I have experienced this flaring as well. I thought that it was the trans slipping. I also noticed some overly harsh shifts as well. The previous owner of my car (also a member of this AZ) did a 3x3 or 4x3 with redline racing. I wasn't aware of this until I drained the fluid assuming it was the fluid that had been in there since day one but it came out bright red. I drained it one time and added 3 qts of Royal Purple ATF and it shifts great now. I only hope that driving it for at least 4k miles with the flaring hasn't damaged the transmission. There was a very minimal amount of metal "dust" on the drain plug so hopefully it will be fine.

leedogg

I'm going to stick with DW1 for now and you guys can continue to be the ATF guinea pigs . Did my 3/4 sensors @ 90k, at 120k now, will switch them again @ 150k.

Inaccurate

Thanks for posting this Trent. Great detective work on your part. This is the most interesting story that I have read regarding the flaring. Yep, bright red would mostly likely be Racing, and at the least for sure be synthetic of some sort.

But having flaring and then stopping the flaring with that single fluid change, this pretty much confirms your theory of having too much Racing in the trans.

Because you found very minimal slime on the drain plug, I would think that no harm was done.

You should had used Redline D4 instead of the Royal Purple ATF although. If you had used Redline D4, you would of had the option of never touching the ATF ever again.

Whereas having the Royal Purple ATF in there, it would be nice if you could get it out. That would mean doing a 3x3 using 2 quarts Racing ATF and 1 quart D4 if you wanted to stick with the Racing fluid. If not, then do the 3x3 with just Redline D4. After this 3x3, you will have the option of never touching the ATF ever again.

Inaccurate

It's a deal. And you can be our DW1 guinea pig . I am sure that the DW1 is a lot better than the notorious Z1.

djmanu

iTrader: (2)

wow, i did the 3x3 racing atf about a year ago and put about 10k on the TL within that year. i guess i gotta go buy some D4 fluid now. great info, thanks Inaccurate!

leedogg

oh come now, you should know enough to know that dw1 is better than Z1, the real question is whether DW1 is better than D4/F

Inaccurate

Fixed it for you.

trent_ky

I was amazed after I added the fluid. It was immediately noticeable. Before the single drain/fill the car jerked when put in reverse and even that was gone as soon as I put it in reverse to back out of the garage. I was extremely thrilled with the results. I'm very paranoid about transmissions as I have had to replace the trans in 2 previous cars (a cobalt ss, and a bmw x5 4.4). I NEVER want to do it again on my dime!

I'm curious as to why you say the Royal Purple should be changed out. It is a synthetic fluid and it was listed as an acceptable replacement for the honda z1 fluid (along with many other makes including dextron 4). I knew I should have waited for the redline but the RP was available locally where as I would have to order the redline...yes I am inpatient haha.

I had the luxury of knowing that the fluid in there was redline racing because I happened to come across the previous owner on here (I can't remember his name on here).

Inaccurate

My comment regarding the Royal Purple ATF is based on many post made by "I Hate Cars" (IHC). I trust his information.


Royal Purple Max ATF? (click here)