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Hi everyone, I recently got a base TL with 39,000 miles that i bought from my grandparents. They barely drove the car of course, and drove it lightly however only put in the lowest fuel grade when filling it up. I know it affects the cleanliness of the car, so i was wondering what fuel cleaner i should use the help the performance of a probably pretty dirty fuel system. Thank you for the help!
Ill have to post some soon! Its paint is in good condition, but of course my grandparents are old so some sratches were there that the detailer couldnt fully remove 😭
Low grade fuel do not in any way contribute to a lack of cleanliness in the engine or fuel system.
Can you elaborate please? I want to disagree, but knowing your background there is probably more to this than I am aware of. Everything you generally read states low grade fuel that may not have high enough of detergent levels leads to build up within the engine. Hence the reason for Top Tier fuels and such. This is based on using actual low grade/cheap fuel, not just using Top Tier 87 octane fuel. I am well aware a good 87 octane does no "real" harm. But have always been under the impression using cheap fuel that may not have enough detergents in it can do harm over the long term.
Top Tier fuels are nothing but a marketing ploy. The fact is, the world's auto manufacturers are in very close contact with the world's gasoline producers, and even the lowest grade off-brand fuel has more than enough "detergents" (actually a misnomer as there is no detergent in gasoline) or cleaning agents to keep modern fuel systems clean and fully operational for the life of the vehicle.
Side comment; when "Top Tier" was first coined I was working for Mercedes-Benz North America and sent out a query to every fuel maker in the U.S., both those who subscribed to Top Tier and those who did not (notably brands like Mobil). The almost universal response I got was attestation to meeting or exceeding the Top Tier standards; for those not "Top Tier" branded, they stated they didn't feel paying the price to join the club was worth the price of admission.
The only comment I have on that is my parents used to own a gas station, and it was up to them to add the Conoco specific "stuff" to the fuel. A generic delivery tanker showed up, filled their tanks, they went out and dumped the special sauce in after that. So I still think it is possible to get fuel without the right stuff....although I get your point about the various brands' standards all should meet the minimum requirements.
So my next question would be is that since the previous owner only used low grade fuel all they way until 39,000 miles, would the car have any issues now? Or as long as i put in top tier gas from now on it should be back to normal fuel efficiency and power?
So my next question would be is that since the previous owner only used low grade fuel all they way until 39,000 miles, would the car have any issues now? Or as long as i put in top tier gas from now on it should be back to normal fuel efficiency and power?
No need to over think it, put in gas, preferably premium as that is what is specified for your car, and drive. No need to muck around looking for the "right" gas.
No need to over think it, put in gas, preferably premium as that is what is specified for your car, and drive. No need to muck around looking for the "right" gas.
thanks! I think im overthinking everything with the car because a while back I got an Rsx that was a lemon and that experience gave me PTSD 😂 also my previous car was a corolla which was amazing on gas so i think im not used to the poor gas mileage my Tl gets in the city
thanks! I think im overthinking everything with the car because a while back I got an Rsx that was a lemon and that experience gave me PTSD 😂 also my previous car was a corolla which was amazing on gas so i think im not used to the poor gas mileage my Tl gets in the city
If you want to "feel" better, go buy a bottle of Techron and put it in the tank with some premium fuel and call it a day. It may help, it probably won't, but it may put your mind at ease. I personally use Techron a couple of times per year....old habits are hard to break. I pick up the case at Costco and just grab a bottle for each car every month or two. Does it help? I have no idea at all. It's just what I do and have done for 25 years. Just like those that swear by SeaFoam (which I use in my mowers along with MMO) and everything else. It makes us feel better.
And if you think your MPG in the TL will be anything near the Corolla....you just keep hoping for the best...it won't be.....ever....unless you are going downhill at 45MPH for a couple hundred miles...then maybe.
Top Tier fuels are nothing but a marketing ploy. The fact is, the world's auto manufacturers are in very close contact with the world's gasoline producers, and even the lowest grade off-brand fuel has more than enough "detergents" (actually a misnomer as there is no detergent in gasoline) or cleaning agents to keep modern fuel systems clean and fully operational for the life of the vehicle.
Side comment; when "Top Tier" was first coined I was working for Mercedes-Benz North America and sent out a query to every fuel maker in the U.S., both those who subscribed to Top Tier and those who did not (notably brands like Mobil). The almost universal response I got was attestation to meeting or exceeding the Top Tier standards; for those not "Top Tier" branded, they stated they didn't feel paying the price to join the club was worth the price of admission.
Oh, you think top Tier fuels are nothing but a marketing ploy, huh? Well then maybe you can explain why my TL has more power on Shell V-Power, the best of the Top Tiers than any other brand? On V-Power, I feel like I can beat out almost any other car on the road. No BS! And at 303K miles, it feels like I barely have 30K.
Yes, I pay a little more for Shell V-Power, but it's absolutely definitely worth it!
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Oh, you think top Tier fuels are nothing but a marketing ploy, huh? Well then maybe you can explain why my TL has more power on Shell V-Power, the best of the Top Tiers than any other brand? On V-Power, I feel like I can beat out almost any other car on the road. No BS! And at 303K miles, it feels like I barely have 30K.
Yes, I pay a little more for Shell V-Power, but it's absolutely definitely worth it!
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Maybe your car has the rare V-Power mod; for the rest of us there is no difference between any grade or brand of fuel with an AKI of 91 or higher.
WTF are you talking about? I speak strictly from experience. Car does not run as well on ANY other premium.
100% stock!
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Then I submit there is something wrong with your car. I have virtually the same car and it is immune to any change in gasoline; brand, no matter, grade, 87, 89, 91, and 93, no matter; the car behaves the same regardless.
I will agree there is a difference in some TLs between 87, 91, and 93. I agree with DMZ that when running on Shell V-Power 93 Octane, my car does run differently....better. Enough for me to justify additional cost or hunt for a Shell station? Nope. Just an observation I made several years ago when in St. Louis and able to easily access a Shell station with 93.
But again...do what makes you happy. We have beat up the 87 vs 91 discussion sooooooo many times over the years. There is no right or wrong answer there. Some have had differences, many have not.
I think we are all also forgetting that we all live in different regions which can each have different fuel blends, different driving conditions, different weather, and our individual engines may be in slightly different conditions. So what works well in New Hampshire may not work as well in Texas or maybe Denver.
I will agree there is a difference in some TLs between 87, 91, and 93. I agree with DMZ that when running on Shell V-Power 93 Octane, my car does run differently....better. Enough for me to justify additional cost or hunt for a Shell station? Nope. Just an observation I made several years ago when in St. Louis and able to easily access a Shell station with 93.
But again...do what makes you happy. We have beat up the 87 vs 91 discussion sooooooo many times over the years. There is no right or wrong answer there. Some have had differences, many have not.
I think we are all also forgetting that we all live in different regions which can each have different fuel blends, different driving conditions, different weather, and our individual engines may be in slightly different conditions. So what works well in New Hampshire may not work as well in Texas or maybe Denver.
Certainly some truth to that, however, I spend a lot of time in the New York/New Jersey area and have experienced exactly zero difference between Shell, Exxon, and Brand X 93 AKI fuels when I'm down there.
OP, lower octane gas does not burn any dirtier than high octane gas. What makes the difference is sufficient additives to help clean the dirty carbon deposits left by fuel burn. Running Top Tier gas will ensure that your gas has sufficient additives for cleaning.
I don't buy the "butt dyno" testimony about Shell V-Power.
I've been running 87 Octane (Top Tier) in my 6MT for over 200K miles now, no issues, no change in mileage. I ran extensive tests with the Torque Pro app to see if timing was pulled while running 87 compared to running 91. No difference. If timing isn't being pulled, the performance isn't being affected.
You might see a benefit from higher octane gas if running in extreme summer heat (100F), dunno.
OP, lower octane gas does not burn any dirtier than high octane gas. What makes the difference is sufficient additives to help clean the dirty carbon deposits left by fuel burn. Running Top Tier gas will ensure that your gas has sufficient additives for cleaning.
Even that is overkill, even the cheapest no name/off brand fuel has more than enough additives to keep the engine (as) free (as possible) of carbon deposits.
...I ran extensive tests with the Torque Pro app to see if timing was pulled while running 87 compared to running 91. No difference...
I'm interested to know how this was done in the Torque Pro app? I am assuming you are using the OBDII Reader Via Bluetooth to accomplish this? What settings on the App?
Even that is overkill, even the cheapest no name/off brand fuel has more than enough additives to keep the engine (as) free (as possible) of carbon deposits.
Link to support your assertion? Everything I've read about EPA minimum standards for additives indicate that they should be higher for better cleaning/prevention of deposits....
Originally Posted by mhtut83
I'm interested to know how this was done in the Torque Pro app? I am assuming you are using the OBDII Reader Via Bluetooth to accomplish this? What settings on the App?
Yes, OBD blue tooth reader. It's been several years now, but the Pro app lets you save a spreadsheet with multiple data points to include timing.
Link to support your assertion? Everything I've read about EPA minimum standards for additives indicate that they should be higher for better cleaning/prevention of deposits....
So let me see if I have this correct, you're asking me to provide a link to a study which shows, uhhh, nothing (i.e. no reduction in deposits with an increase of additives over industry standards). Did I get that right?
See, the thing is, that isn't how things work in the engineering world. Why? Because you cannot prove a positive with a negative. Said another way, the onus is on you to show studies where in increase in additives over the established minimum do in fact correlate to a reduction in deposits. And per your original post on the subject, we're talking about unspecified "carbon deposits" here. Maybe I've missed such studies, but so far, I haven't seen anything which supports your claims.
Wait, read the series of previous posts; you're the one who make the claim of extra additives equating to lower carbon deposits; please support your claim.
People here aren't morons. Hopefully they can see that I've caught you with your pants down, once again.
There's a reason why Honda, Audi, BMW, General Motors, Fiat Chrysler, Toyota, Volkswagon, Ford and yes, your precious Mercedes Benz all recommend using Top Tier gas. I wonder why that is? Perhaps it's because they know that Top Tier gas results in far fewer deposits than gas with just the generic EPA levels of additives.
If 19 times less deposits doesn't do it for you, then no convincing will:
The results showed that on average, Top Tier gasoline had 19 times fewer carbon deposits on injectors, intake valves, and in the combustion chamber when compared to regular gasoline.
AAA also found Top Tier gasoline can have a cleansing effect, reducing intake valve deposits by 45 to 72 percent when used over a 5,000-mile interval. Variation in the results is attributed to the detergents used by different brands.
People here aren't morons. Hopefully they can see that I've caught you with your pants down, once again.
There's a reason why Honda, Audi, BMW, General Motors, Fiat Chrysler, Toyota, Volkswagon, Ford and yes, your precious Mercedes Benz all recommend using Top Tier gas. I wonder why that is? Perhaps it's because they know that Top Tier gas results in far fewer deposits than gas with just the generic EPA levels of additives.
If 19 times less deposits doesn't do it for you, then no convincing will:
Waiting for your reply saying that AAA is full of crap
Yeah, I'm going to have to say the lab which did that study is full of crap. I've torn down hundreds of engines with port style fuel injection and never once seen a valve like the one shown above. Now, if you want to talk about valves from DI engines, yeah, they look like that nasty valve above, however, no amount of additives will help in this case as there is no fuel to wash the valves.
Regarding the "study" above, if it was a truly rigorous study with proper blinds, analysis, and justifications, and peer reviewed, it would show up on the SAE web site (www.sae.org); it does not. In fact, there isn't a single study over in the SAE archives which supports your claim.
Yeah, I'm going to have to say the lab which did that study is full of crap. I've torn down hundreds of engines with port style fuel injection and never once seen a valve like the one shown above. Now, if you want to talk about valves from DI engines, yeah, they look like that nasty valve above, however, no amount of additives will help in this case as there is no fuel to wash the valves.
Regarding the "study" above, if it was a truly rigorous study with proper blinds, analysis, and justifications, and peer reviewed, it would show up on the SAE web site (www.sae.org); it does not. In fact, there isn't a single study over in the SAE archives which supports your claim.
So, are you saying that Top Tier fuel offers no additional additives over the EPA minimum standards?
So, are you saying that Top Tier fuel offers no additional additives over the EPA minimum standards?
I'm not quite sure what the EPA has to do with it; they are not the ones who set the standards. That said, yes, Top Tier branded fuels offer no benefit over fuels not so branded.
I'm not quite sure what the EPA has to do with it; they are not the ones who set the standards. That said, yes, Top Tier branded fuels offer no benefit over fuels not so branded.
Wow, talk about clueless. The EPA has set the minimum standard for deposit control additives in consumer gasoline since 1995.
Of course, I guess that now you're going to say that the SAE is full of crap
I think you missed the point; the EPA does not set the standards, they only approve and publish them. The autos and petroleum producers meet independent of the EPA and come up with minimum standards which the EPA simply rubber stamps.
Although EPA's minimum detergency requirements are beneficial, they do not satisfy the needs of all vehicles.
It is important to note that the absence of a gasoline marketer from the list of TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline participants does not necessarily mean that the marketer is using only the minimum EPA-required amount of detergent additive.
And your precious SAE took time to publish info about the Top Tier program, imagine that
To promote improved gasoline detergency and provide a means for fuel marketers to distinguish themselves from their competitors and advertise this fact to consumers, several major automobile manufacturers introduced the "TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline" program in 2004. This program sets tough standards for controlling deposits on fuel injectors, intake valves, and combustion chambers, as well as preventing problems that are sometimes caused by improper use of additives. The program is voluntary and is open to any U.S. and Canadian fuel marketers. Companies wishing to participate must demonstrate, using specified test procedures, that they meet the requirements of the program. Importantly, they must agree that all grades of their gasoline (not just premium, for example) meet the requirements at all retail outlets within the country (U.S. or Canada, as applicable). Once approved by the OEM Sponsors those marketers can then advertise that they comply with the TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline program, and this information is often posted at gas stations. A list of TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline marketers can be found at www.toptiergas.com and includes a number of small marketers and some (but by no means all) major oil companies. Additional information recommending the use of TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline can be found in most OEM sponsors owner's manuals.
02-20-2019, 12:34 AM
