BradE

My car is a 2008 TL-S, with 14k miles on it. Today I dumped the Z1 ATF and did a 3x3 with Redline D4. For those who have never done this job before, it's pretty easy. The biggest pain in the ass was removing the clips that hold on the cover that covers the transmission drain plug.

Now for the fluid. So far I have noticed a couple things. Previously when putting the car into reverse, or drive, I had a slight bump that you could feel as the gear engaged with your foot on the brake and the car not moving. That is now totally gone, you feel nothing, the car is just in gear. While driving the shifts are still very smooth, but I noticed the car seems to hold the gear a bit longer, then shifts quickly. There is no shudder, no gear whine. The shifts are not hard, but definatly faster than with Z1 fluid.

I know many use Z1, but I can tell you that I'm not a fan. My car only has 14k miles on it, the shifts were already getting slow and sloppy. I have no idea who at Acura came up with a 60k mile drain interval for these cars, but they must have been high or drunk. If you are thinking of switching from the factory fluid, my advice is DO IT. Z1 is mediocre at best.

I will keep this updated as I put more miles on the fluid, for those who are thinking of converting as well. So far so good. I'll see how it does tomorrow when the car is cold in the morning, in terms of shift quality, etc.

michfib

is redline d4 a z1 substitute in the tl's cause i was gonna go with the amsoil atf

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Just an FYI-Under normal driving conditions the change is 100,000 miles, not 60, and just think, that with the crappy Z1 fluid Acura is giving us a 4/50 on new and 7/100 on Certified used so they must have some faith in that fluid.
I've said this before I'm at 64K on the OE fluid and everything is perfect, I'll let you know if something goes south.

Certainly hard for me to believe that the D4 can cover so many applications and have the ingedients that the OE manufacturer finds necessary:
Dexron III
Dexxron II
Mercon
Mercon V
Toyota Type T-III and T-IV
Honda ATF Z1
NissanMatic D, J, K, & S, Diamond SP-II, SP-III
Mazda ATF M-V
Most BMW, Audi, VW automatic transmissions

And here is the best part:
Also used with manual transmissions and transaxles like T-5, T-45, T-56 and late-model BMW

Good luck

BradE

They've also had plenty of trans failures with the wonderful Z1 to, because it uses shitty basestock that doesn't resist oxidiation or disapate heat very well.

As for as D4 meeting a lot of applications......what do you think Z1 is? It's Dexton III with a little higher level of friction modifier added to it. That's it. It only uses a group II basestock, which is why the fluid oxidizes so quickly. The fluids it covers are dextron based. 90% of the tranny fluids on the market are dextron based, the only difference is slight variations in the add packs.

And FYI, the severe service recommendation is 60k miles. Stop and go city traffic is considered "severe" by nearly every car manufacturer operating today.

BradE

Yes, D4 is suitable for use in Z1 applications. So is Amsoil.

michfib

^^^thanks
but from all the talks about the two, which one would be better

BradE

Either are fine, IMO. Go with the one you can get the better price on.

Amsoil uses Group IV PAO, Redline uses a blend of PAO and Group V ester. In theory, the Redline has a better basestock, in reality there probably isn't much difference between the two.

michfib

probably gonna go with the d4 thanks again

BradE

What ever you choose, get 12 quarts. Mine took more than 9 quarts doing the 3x3. It took about 9.5 quarts after it was topped off to bring the level on the dipstick to where it needed to be.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

And where may I ask did this bit of technical information come from, rather than assumptions? The early trans failures was not the result of incorrect fluid, is the lack of lubrication under certain driving conditions.
Also take note that while the fluid loses its red color, this is normal, as the fluid is only dyed red to distinguish it from other fluids.

Then according to you, Z1 isn’t the same as Dexron, exactly my point, the D4 can’t match every manufacturer’s product, give a little take a little.

Once again I think you’ll find you’re incorrect. As per Acura the following requires a 60,000 mile A/T fluid change:
Driving in mountainous areas at very low vehicle speeds requires transmission fluid changes more frequently than recommended by the maintenance minder. If you regularly drive your vehicle under these conditions, have the transmission fluid changed at 60,000 miles, then every 30,000 miles.
A far cry from stop and go city traffic that you consider sever

BradE

1) Go read the UOA's for Z1. It's a group II product. Also note the viscosity, it shears, and oxidizes. Part of it is because of the design of the transmission itself, the other part is because of the base that is used. Group II products are not designed for extended drain intervals.

2) Z1 is Dextron, the add pack is different, but not by much. It's not difficult for a fluid to meet multiple applications when the base fluid is the same across many different models. All that is needed is a larger additive pack to meet the requirements for various manufactures. That is what nearly every major oil company does, this isn't breaking news. Honda refuses to grant licenses for Z1, it's not because no other fluid meets thier magical formula, it's because of money. You really think ExxonMobil couldn't make a fluid that exceeds Z1 spec? They can, and already have. It's a multi-vehicle ATF as well, BTW.

3) Driving at low speeds, sustained, is severe service. It doesn't make a damn bit of difference if there is a mountain or not. It's the same principal as the MID uses. If you drive highway miles, you might get 7,000 miles before it indicates an oil change is due. If you drive city, it might only be 5,000. Same thing, and no mountains involved either.

csmeance

Stop and go traffic is one of the most severe impacts on a car, brakes stopping and letting go all the time, the torque converter locking and unlocking constantly, the gear going back and forth between 1 and 2 and a lack of air-air cooling with a lower amount of air hitting the radiator.

Also I believe the interval for the 2007+ models was changed to 100k as a few other members were upset by the change. I can't be sure since I haven't seen a manual stating this with my own eyes since I don't have immediate access to an 2007-2008 TL manual.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

You're definition of severe service differs from the Acura specifications, so if you believe it's the same, in your mind you're right.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Never said it wasn't demanding, only stated what the FSM indicates. It won't lockup in 2nd when in sport mode, but will in drive. Also, in heavy traffic, with the cooling system design, I have never had a problem with rising temps, and that is where the fluid is being cooled. Similar to most all other vehicles with no aux cooler, fluid 100K and no problems.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Good post I need to try it out on my mom MDX. It has that Clunk noise that you described.

MpegtwoTL

my trans at 58k has developed a slight wine at city speeds (30-40mph). I wonder if this would help. I need to find a shop that can actually do a flush and fill.

05 tl-p 5at

princelybug

iTrader: (16)

^
Try to do this yourself. It'll save you a lot of money, and is just as simple as an engine oil change.

Also, never flush the tranny. Always drain the pan, and fill it back up.

01tl4tl

agree on wording when speaking with any shop-
only acura calls a drain and refill a `flush`,
Any shop that wants to use a power machine is not going to touch my TL!!

the 3x3 ~flush~ if dex3 ever added in an emergency top off- then you must do a 12 qt. 3x3 to rid the system of ~the evil fluid~

trans will drain approx 3.2 qts if you are patient- total capacity 7.3

Immediate results of different fluids are nice to know, but the important thing is how is the trans in a year-2-3?
Someone pull a sample of your choice of fluid and get analysis please!

you may be onto something for the rest of us to use, or discover wear that shouldnt be occuring

MpegtwoTL

whats wrong with a transmission powerflush to circulate out more old fluid?

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Problem I see with the power flush is that all transmissions will have some debris, just from normal wear, residing in the pan, and when the trans is power flushed this material can be forced into places that might cause future problems.

The 3x3 method more appropriate, or a simple drain and refill is fine.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

this may not answer your question but it does give a little insight:

http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/B080100.PDF

01tl4tl

its been proven to destroy the TL trans- likely from dex3 used in those machines-
the very fluid acura says you must use 12 qts honda fluid to get rid of if any at all was put in the trans!! let alone running on it

There are stories here of shop did a machine flush and the car wouldnt leave the ramp, they diagnosed selenoids- nope, maybe its this, nope, they fried the trans on wrong fluid and had to replace it for the owner

BradE

The manual states you can use Dextron III when Z1 is not available, but it maybe cause a difference in shifting. Dextron III will NOT destroy the trans in the TL. Honda Z1 is based on Dextron III, the only difference is a little bit of friction modifier.

Flush machines usually kill a trans by clogging the filter and the pump runs dry, causing it to fry. They can also over pressurize the lines during the flush and the debris in the fluid can cause issues with the internals.

01tl4tl

ok- well Im gen2 and only know what our book says- so thats what I stated- sorry if gen3 is different on this detail
ours is 3x3 required if you add in a top off- a tiny amount of dex3-
for whatever issue with sludge and it holding the clutch packs together,, machine flush and the gen2 dont get along

gen3 can use the newest acura drain and refill method- its for cars with advanced electronic trans and tq lockup- they run it on the lift- shifting thru each gear- simulating the 5 minute drive between drains, and it may allow continous drain and refill while on lift- not sure on that- see tsb

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

If it won't harm the transmission, then I can see no reason why Acurawould state that if Dexron III is used in an emergency situation, it must be removed ASAP by doing the 3 x 3.2 refills.

BradE

Because they want you to use thier fluid.

The manual doesn't state 6MT guys can use the GM fluid either, but it works.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Got to agree with you on the GM fluid, at least positives from most that have used it, but I would feel more comfortable with Redline over the GM.
I know on our modified Mazda the Redline works wonders over the "regular" Mazda specified fluid. Of course we're comparing mineral to syn, or part syn.

BradE

IMO Honda should have made Z1 a synthetic fluid. With all the problems these transmissions have with heat build up, it would have been a better choice.

But of course the bean counters win in the end.

I hate cars

I saw this one a little late.

There's a very good reason D4 can cover so man applications. In reality you only have a few different types of transmission fluids.

1-Heavily friction modified (Z1, ATF+4)

2-Friction modified (DexIII and everything in between the top and bottom fluids)

3-No FM (Type F)

Then you have synthetic or dino in each of these 3 categories.

A synthetic can cover every manufacture's viscosity rating no matter which one of the above 3 types it meets. The synthetic will typically start out thinner but thin less as it gets hot so it covers the entire span from the old DexIII to the new thinner Dex VI.

Honda obviously wants you to purchase their fluid. It's well known dealerships can make more money off of the service department than the sales department.

Z1 is heavily friction modified for super smooth shifts, however it does not make a difference with the DBW on these cars. Read how Inaccurate is now using Type F with no change in shift quality, just a quicker shift.

What Brad said is true. Think of Z1 as one of the cheaper DexIII fluids with extra friction modifier.


It was well known when I rebuilt transmissions for a living in my early years that no shop used Z1. They used bulk DexIII from the big tanks with a black bottle of Lubgard for the additional FM for Honda products. Our standard warranty was 4 years and 50,000 miles. If we could've gotten more reliability and saved $500 worth of our time and parts on a comeback by spending an extra $20 on fluid we would have.

I've run Amsoil's non recommended ATD for 80,000 miles and now Redline D4 for 2 drain and fills and Redline's version of Type F for one drain and fill. Shifts are so much better than stock and I think the mileage speaks for itself that its reliable.

Quick shifts= less wear. Quick shifts normally= harder shifts but with the DBW, there's no penalty in the shift firmness department.

There is absolutely no reason to run Z1 and no reason to not run any fluid of your choice in these cars. Z1 is not magic and it's one of the worst factory fluids out there based on oxidation and sheer.

Or another way of putting it, you can't put anything worse than Z1 in your car. Transmission fluid is simple but it's made to be so complicated. It's first and foremost a hydraulic fluid that's friction modified to get the shift quality desired.

As far as heat/severe service is concerned it's easy to figure out. Anytime there's a large speed differential between the flywheel and input shaft along with load there's going to be heat. That's most stop and go and mountain roads at lower speeds with the convertor unlocked. You could probably do 200,000 miles between changes if the car was run continuously down the freeway, never stopping.

I put my money where my mouth is and this car has been on a non recommended trans fluid and a non recommended STRAIGHT 30 wt engine oil since new and no problems at nearly 90,000 miles.

I know this is all over the place, not very organized but I think it makes all the points that I meant to cover.

I hate cars

I've got ~80,000 on the Amsoil ATD (not ATF) and now 2,000 on the Redline. It hasn't seen Z1 since mid '06.

I hate cars

Here's some good recent reading on this topic.

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/racing-atf-764322/

Back on the original topic, I'm liking the Redline. Very, very little difference in shift quality over the Amsoil.

To those who are interested the Amsoil was great for all of these miles but keep in mind I've always used the non recommended ATD, not ATF because it's a heavier duty fluid. I decided to swap it mostly out of boredom and just like the engine oil, I wanted to experiment with an ester base.

pohljm

So? where is the best place to pick up some redline fluid?

IHC whats the thought process for running the 30w. Similar climate here in San Diego, little cooler but similar.

I hate cars

I go through Jegs. Competitive pricing and quick shipping. You may be able to find it locally.

I've read too many studies with the HTHS number vs the amount of engine wear and there's a direct relation to this number and wear. HTHS usually follows viscosity.

The other line of reasoning is the 30wt is as thin or thinner at startup and operating temp in CA as a 20wt is in a cold climate. They recommend a 20wt for all climates due to CAFE regulations. I figure if a 20wt doesn't hurt in Canada, a 30wt can't hurt in the typical CA climate.

These engines originally spec'd a 30wt. Nothing has been changed such as oil pump volume to make sure there's sufficient flow at low rpms with the 20wt. As one of the respected Honda engine builders on here has stated, hot idle oil pressure is scary low on these engines with the 20wt.

It will still live a good long life on the 20wt but I want to keep mine until the wheels fall off.

leedogg

You're a good advocate for redline, I hate cars. Using amsoil atf now, might try redline on my next resupply.

I hate cars

Amsoil was awesome for me. I just got bored.

samplemonster

how much did it cost you OP?

thanks

samplemonster

The prices found were in the $130-140 for 3 1 gallons

Did some reading, and there's a D4 & D6

Why not do the D6?

Thanks, I'm about to order

BradE

I paid $109 including shipping for 12 quarts of D4.

boomersooner02000

You can get 3 gallons of D4 on Amazon for about $110 shipping included.

01tl4tl

I yield to hate cars on long term trans fluid use knowledge:

the acura book was written 10 years ago and gm modifier for mt, or a realistic fluid change interval on AT was not in their thinking

they made it so easy change trans fluid but dont say to do it~

as for 30wt in engine thats fine and better protection for the parts impacting at high speed several million times a day
the first number of oil weight really only comes into play below 32F, W=winter,
so southern Ca is not in great danger of freezes that would require thin acting oil to assist getting oil pressure at start up

Be in the habit of having oil pressure solid before driving off-- is the smart move with any oil, 30-60 seconds and the TL is ready to go and warms up faster on the move