When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Dealership Estimate - Removal of Cylindar Head for machining?
2008 TL Type S Auto
91,000 miles
Car felt rough at idle and low RPMs for a couple of months. Recently got code P0302 due to the engine misfire on #2 and Acura found that the coil melted in spark plug hole. They can remove, but say it's likely it will need machining. They claim 80% of the time this occurs machining work is necessary.
Getting a quote of:
$3,440 for removal of a cylindar head and machining work
$742 for Timing Belt / Water Pump while the other work being done
$282 to replace all 6 spark plugs
Just out of curiosity, when you bought the car, was it certified pre owned?
I had an engine misfire issue on my 07' TL Type S and my 100k/7 years warranty ended about 8 months prior to this occurrence. I ended up complaining and talking to Acura Corporate and they actually helped out with most of the repair.
Order a used head http://www.ebay.com/itm/2007-2008-ACURA-TL-3-5-TYPE-S-REAR-CYLINDER-HEAD-ASSEMBLY-OEM-1309/262422916953?_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109&_trkparms=aid%3D333008%26algo%3DRIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131231133846%26meid%3D6f37be16b85f44acb15d7c68f6872cc5%26pid%3D100010%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D262422902012
Go to oemacuraparts.com and order the complete timing belt kit with tensioners, spark plugs and valve cover gasket set.
Find a honda dealership or a certified indepedant shop to do the work. While they set valve adjustment on the replacement head, they can do the same for the other one. That way you get the complete 105K service. Timing belt , spark plugs and valve adjustment.
This would be your best solution on saving on costs. You will have extra money for anything else that needs replacement.
Did the spark plug actually shoot out of the head ? .
Before anything I would try to look how the threads are. Try to put a new plug and coil.
If it does not work then I would replace the head.
I had a spark plug shoot out of the hole right through the coil ripping the threads in the process. Cost me 1500 at Acura here in St. Louis
I had a similar problem. I would not replace the head new or used until it is confirmed that there is no internal damage to the cylinder walls. Someone with a borescope should be able to tell. I would try to find someone that could repair the threads first. I had a Honda dealer do a thread repair for $250. Once the threads were repaired it was discovered that there was scoring on the cylinder walls from the metal shavings that fell into the engine and the engine was burning oil like crazy. I was only out $250 instead of $3400. Because of the scored cylinders I needed a new engine. I was able to put one in with 101k on it for about $3600 through an independent shop.
Also although I am not recommending head replacement. I do have my old heads for sale in the black market. PM me if you're interested.
I had a similar problem. I would not replace the head new or used until it is confirmed that there is no internal damage to the cylinder walls. Someone with a borescope should be able to tell. I would try to find someone that could repair the threads first. I had a Honda dealer do a thread repair for $250. Once the threads were repaired it was discovered that there was scoring on the cylinder walls from the metal shavings that fell into the engine and the engine was burning oil like crazy. I was only out $250 instead of $3400. Because of the scored cylinders I needed a new engine. I was able to put one in with 101k on it for about $3600 through an independent shop.
Also although I am not recommending head replacement. I do have my old heads for sale in the black market. PM me if you're interested.
WOW.
I am way over my head here, literally no clue which direction to go now. What a mess! Thank you though.!!
Your first problem is that your ECU is probably toast from water dripping on it.
Next issue: Remove the coil and pull the damn plug. It's likely the plug will come out fine and you'll only need a new ECU, new plug and new coil.
If the threads in the head happen to be damaged, then get it time serted or heli-coiled. Far less expensive than replacing the head.
Oh, and get your A/C drain tube cleaned out...
I guess I need to call Acura again, they haven't even mentioned the ECU or water dripping aspect. Wouldn't they be familiar with these issues?!? That's why I took it there...
Can I direct Acura to ensure that the cylinder walls are OK as same time?
You can ask them but when I had my car at a Honda dealership they said there was no way to know of any damage inside the engine. They obviously didn't have a camera or borescope. I took my car to an engine builder to properly diagnose they showed me the screenshots from the borescope and the damage was obvious. Dealerships are sometimes just glorified parts replacers. The dealership should be able to try to repair the threads with a helicoil kit or other. The worse case scenario is it fails and you have to pull the head anyways.
I would ask the dealership 1. Can they inspect the cylinder walls/ piston for damage 2. Can they repair the threads for a decent price. If they say no to both get the car towed somewhere else.
I would ask the dealership 1. Can they inspect the cylinder walls/ piston for damage 2. Can they repair the threads for a decent price. If they say no to both get the car towed somewhere else.
Thanks!! Here's my chat transcript of what I asked the technician. Do I sound like I somehow know what I'm talking about?
Hi, thanks. I do have a couple of questions after following up on the diagnosis.
1) is it possible for you to inspect the cylindar walls / piston for damage? I don't want to go about replacing a cylindar head if there is further damage to the engine. I know this would likely require a borescope.
2) can you replace the threads , if needed, - helicoil or time serted?
3) as far as understanding the root cause of this issue, it seems to me that this would have been caused by an outside issue - 91k miles is fairly surprising. Upon researching a bit it seems that a common issue that causes cylindar 2 to misfire is damage to the ecu through a leak or clog in the a/c drain tube. Was this inspected?
Thank you.
Acura Reply:
To answer the first question: it is possible to look at the cylinder wall, but that would require the removal of the coil that is melted. Which means, you would still need to be prepared to do the job if what is found is that there is damage. The coil is melted to the cylinder wall, you can not see what is behind the melted coil, being the condition of the cylinder wall is. Question #2; any repair done to the head is where the head needs to be sent to a machine shop to be completed. That work is not something we do here. The machine shop will be able to do that kind of repair. Question #3: yes, the technician can look under to see if there is any indication of a leak on the pcm, that could have caused damage to the effected cylinder. I may not have a result for that until tomorrow due to the time of day.
Here's the deal: The coil melted. It didn't disintegrate the spark plug. The plug should still be intact. Because of this, nothing should have fallen into the cylinder.
The difficulty will/may be removing the melted coil from the spark plug tube and spark plug so that they can get a socket on the spark plug. Heck, the plug might not even have to be removed, but I probably would pull it for inspection.
There is a risk that coil particles may fall into the cylinder when removing the plug. A good shop would vacuum the spark plug tube after removing the coil and before pulling the plug. Then they would run a scope in the cylinder to see if any coil particles fell into the cylinder and vacuum if necessary.
Again, I don't see how the spark plug hole threads could be damaged nor do I see how any damage could have yet occurred to the cylinder. This is a melted coil issue, not a "blown plug" issue.
If all they see is a melted coil in the plug hole that means that most likely you need to clean the sparkplug hole to get to the spark plug and remove old plug and install new plug and coil.
The other thing that will be melted in the spark plug tube seal in the valve cover.
I thought they had already pulled the coil out to see the damage. I agree with the comments above if just the coil is melted and not yet removed you may not have any damage to the spark plug. I am surprised they still want to go the machine shop route. Once the coil is out and you know the damage I would call around and see if you can find a shop that will repair the threads in the head.
Your first problem is that your ECU is probably toast from water dripping on it.
Next issue: Remove the coil and pull the damn plug. It's likely the plug will come out fine and you'll only need a new ECU, new plug and new coil.
If the threads in the head happen to be damaged, then get it time serted or heli-coiled. Far less expensive than replacing the head.
Oh, and get your A/C drain tube cleaned out...
I already told him in the other thread twice but OP just insist must listen to "Dealer" so just let him be. Dealer wanted all of that work and if they can pull the melt coil out and replace the plugs then profit to be makes (goes into dealer and mechanic pocket).
I already told him in the other thread twice but OP just insist must listen to "Dealer" so just let him be. Dealer wanted all of that work and if they can pull the melt coil out and replace the plugs then profit to be makes (goes into dealer and mechanic pocket).
Hey, yes I did! That's what I'm currently asking them about, making them check the A/C drain! Look at my chat w/ dealership ^^^
I say - remove the melted coil - make sure the plug didn't blow out the threads. If it did, slap a timesert in for $50 and crank that bad boy up. You might get lucky and drive away CHEAP.
Acura just sent over pics of the ECU, looks OK to me? Although I'm not sure actual damage would even show if it was simply wet. Trying to redirect them to inspect the A/C drain hose itself. ugh
Holy crap, dude! How many billable hours are they going to soak you for all of this so far?
It's possible that water shorted the circuit board with no damage (which melted the coil), but you'd be lucky if that happened.
If they find that the drain tube is plugged, then the ECU was definitely wet at one point or another...I've never heard of anything else causing melted coils in the 3G TL.
Last edited by nfnsquared; 06-09-2016 at 12:13 PM.
Holy crap, dude! How many billable hours are they going to soak you for all of this so far?
It's possible that water shorted the circuit board with no damage (which melted the coil), but you'd be lucky if that happened.
If they find that the drain tube is plugged, then the ECU was definitely wet at one point or another...I've never heard of anything else causing melted coils in the 3G TL.
I never even considered them trying to charge for this; it was a $140 inspection on the cause of the issue. Figured it was all included in that?!?? I've at least had a loaner since taking it in...but they seem clueless. WHy would they send a picture of the ECU? What the hell is that accomplishing when I specifically asked about the A/C drain - if it caused the issue.
I'm sorry i'm confused. I was wondering about the a/c drain, as I have read online that it is common in acura tl's to have an issue with the a/c drain leaking or being clogged, and thus causing a short on the ecu. It appears you only sent a picture of the ecu ?? I don't know how that helps anything and it was not what I was expecting. If it were getting wet via a leak in the a/c drainage, once it dried, it would look exactly as it normally did...?
If the a/c drain were to be clogged, the pcm would show corrosion and water damage. The pcm is clean and clear.
I tell you what OP someone here already had similar experience with you, Yes he did bring the car to one of the four famous Acura dealer here in Houston. Its took them a week and half to point out the water drift on to the ECU, justnspace and nfsquare already called the real culprit since day 1. Now let me tell you what "Acura" gonna tell you next if they agree on the water issue. "its because dirty cabin air filter". Worst case scenario replace the head with a used along with the ECU for around $2500 at a indi shop.
Good grief, are they just going to refuse to check the drain tube? And just looking at the end of the tube isn't good enough. In many cases, spiders have climbed up the tube and built a nest causing blockage.
"It got so hot the aluminum melted." What aluminum?
I tell you what OP someone here already had similar experience with you, Yes he did bring the car to one of the four famous Acura dealer here in Houston. Its took them a week and half to point out the water drift on to the ECU, justnspace and nfsquare already called the real culprit since day 1. Now let me tell you what "Acura" gonna tell you next if they agree on the water issue. "its because dirty cabin air filter". Worst case scenario replace the head with a used along with the ECU for around $2500 at a indi shop.
Brutal. I don't want to end up like that.
Any recommendations for next steps? Seems like they are refusing to check the A/C drain tube for some reason, so should I just saw screw it and tow it somewhere else, and assume that I can explain the problem via this thread to another shop? Any recommendations on shops to take it to - what types, etc? I know of no reputable local mechanics unfortunately. I'll ask for them to replace the 6 spark plugs, replace PCM, and remove the coil and inspect cylinder head?
Am I allowed to post recorded phone calls? Haha...He just called and said that they DID inspect the A/C drain lines, and there was no corrosion or backup. (Although they never told me that before)
Screw it, here's the audio recording of the conversation. Legal in my state.
Do I run away?
I am telling you You want to have a place that can helicoil the head while it is on the car or at least try. Cylinder 2? It may be a little more difficult since it is on the rear. He is basically going to charge you for $2500+ to pull the head to send it to a machine shop to do $100 worth of work. Maybe they don't have a guy that can do it that is why they want to send it out or it is difficult since it is on the rear. I also don't understand why it is so difficult to pull this coil to see the damage either Did it really get so hot to melt aluminium how would you know it melted aluminium if it is still in there?. I agree they are probably right there is damage to the spark plug and treads. I would call around to shops in your area even other acura/honda dealerships and say you may have damage to your spark plug treads can you repair the heads while it is on the car? Mention it is on the rear as well. There are people all over acurazine who have had this happen and it is possible to helicoil while the head is on the car. I have had it done to my own car by my local Honda dealership. Get it towed somewhere else.
06-06-2016, 12:44 PM
your wallet
