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Old 03-18-2014, 07:31 PM
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RP oil filter all day!
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Old 03-18-2014, 07:35 PM
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I will add a caveat.. I haven't checked the filters since the merger buyout of champ labs and fram, and that Honda filter posted definitely looks different than the one I took apart years ago which makes me wonder if the same farm is making the Honda filters.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SamDoe1 View Post

This picture shows a used filter which will have erratically spaced media because it has been used. There has been gallons of oil that has flowed through that filter that soften and deform the media but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work. With the flow pattern of an oil filter, with the oil coming up the sides and pushed inwards through the media by means of oil pressure, it doesn't really matter what spacing you see when the filter is dry and in your hands because it'll likely be different when under pressure.
I would rather have unevenly spaced media before use than after use. If it started out straight and became uneven during use, at least some of it either stretched or the glue came undone, both of which affect filtration. Best case scenario is it was made unevenly from the get go...

Originally Posted by SamDoe1 View Post
Just because it was a pain to take apart does not make it a better filter. I can probably make you one that's damn near impossible to disassemble and would be utter crap at filtration but I understand the aspect of quality you're after.

Next on to the claims of the filter...which should be fun:
Thicker Shell - Why? According to this it's because these don't get punctured by road debris. Well...my OEM one doesn't either so this is a moot point and a waste of money.
A thicker shell is always nice. The TL does a pretty good job at hiding the filter from road debris but all it takes is that one time. It's not the sole reason for buying the filter but it's a nice feature.
Originally Posted by SamDoe1 View Post
Metal End Caps - Metal is one of the worst sealing materials ever conceived by man, why this is touted as a method for "positive sealing" is beyond me. Additionally, there aren't any engines out there that generate so much oil pressure that it would pass by the "normal" paper end caps without blowing something else up along the way.
The end caps are a common failure point for cardboard designs. Metal is not affected by oil or water or heat. Sealing the media to the metal end caps is not a problem whatsoever with today's glues and epoxys. Cardboard is weaker from the start and only degrades over time. Metal is especially important for longer oil changes, higher pressures, and higher heat.
Originally Posted by SamDoe1 View Post
Center Tube - Again, there aren't any engines out there that generate so much oil pressure that it collapses the center tube without blowing something else up along the way.
A metal center tube protects against collapse. They do collapse. I have collapsed them before, once on a stock engine car and once on a modded engine. Oil pressure actually went up due to the oil pressure gauge's location. Luckily I pulled the filter off almost right away and looking into the center was a bunch of torn up media. A filter might only have a 1-2psi pressure differential when fully hot but on a cold start it can be significantly higher. And again, metal does not degrade over time.
Originally Posted by SamDoe1 View Post
Bypass Valve - This is present on the Honda filter as well, shouldn't be needed but it's there in case of emergency.
The bypass valve is there to keep the media from collapsing from the pressure differential on either side, hopefully rarely used but in really cold climates they can be used quite often. One of the great things about a wire reinforced synthetic media with metal endcaps and a steel center tube is it's resistance to collapse and breakage so they can run a higher psi bypass valve. This makes it less likely to pass unfiltered oil through the bypass valve when the oil is cold and/or the engine is at high rpm. A filter's ability to not go into bypass is high up on my list of priorities.
Originally Posted by SamDoe1 View Post
Anti Drainback Valve - Again, this is present on the Honda filter. The fact that nitrile lasts longer means nothing if you're swapping these out every 5k miles. If your oil filter is full of oil when you change it then there's no reason to fork over extra money for silicone since the anti-drainback is working fine at the end of its service life. FWIW, Honda filters have silicone anyway.
I didn't realize Honda filters use a silicone ADBV. Are you sure about that? I've seen the rubber ones stop sealing long before 5,000 miles. In fact, the rubber ones seem to be less pliable when new and silicone just seems to seal better right out of the gate and does not degrade over time and use. It's not true that if the oil filter is full of oil the ADBV is working fine. There's a column of oil above the filter that needs to stay there. You can have a bad ADBV that allows this column to drain down to the filter level, giving a full filter when you remove it but it's not doing it's job. You might get some funny looks but try the "suck/blow" test on different filters and some will never seal with the tiny amount of pressure you can generate (I'm assuming lol) and some seal right up. The silicone ones usually do better. Maybe it's their lighter weight or just the fact that they're more pliable, especially as temperatures drop which is important. The rubber ones will seal worse as temps get colder while the silicone ones are nearly unaffected.
Originally Posted by SamDoe1 View Post
Steel Backplate - For burst strength? Really? What kind of pressure are you planning on seeing that you need a steel backplate to prevent blowing your oil filter up? This is marketing and a good way to sell stuff, that's it. Not to mention that the gauge of steel is quite thin on these and you're more likely to blow the seal from the backplate to the shell than the backplate itself.
The steel backplate gives a more stable gasket surface, less likely to deform. I've blown filters up and off of my other car with over 120psi of cold oil pressure. Guess where they tend to fail...

Originally Posted by SamDoe1 View Post
Filter Element - Ah the part we all came to read so I saved best for last. Let's begin with the superior filtration comment. How do you propose we get superior filtration while keeping flow restriction low? The only way to get more filtration is to have a finer screen which therefore increases flow restriction. That's the way a filter works and no amount of marketing lingo will change that. The fact that's it's synthetic vs paper is the only part that could possible make a difference and that's only to prevent the breakdown of the filter media and nothing else. I've seen a couple OF cut opens showing the filter totally breaking down but those were fairly long OCI's and were a fairly rare occurrence.
Not correct about filtration and flow. The RP filter flows better AND filters better than most. How can you filter and flow better without increasing media area? Simple, the synthetic media. The holes or pores are of a more constant size but that's not the most important part. The fibers themselves are thinner so you have less wasted area. You can have a smaller pore but far less space between pores giving more pores and flow area while filtering better.

The part nobody ever mentions is the standard cellulose media's reaction to water and we all have some level of moisture in the oil..... The cellulose filters swell in the presence of water, increasing pore size and decreasing filtration. Not only that, it begins to degrade the second oil touches it. Most of the time you change it long before it degrades to a dangerous level. However, there's just something about the glass media not being affected by time and oil that I like.

Again, with higher flow comes less time with the bypass open and less unfiltered oil passing through the engine.
Originally Posted by SamDoe1 View Post
I will, however, leave you with this. Honda spent hundreds of millions in engine development costs over the years to develop their engines and engine oils to perform the way they want and to maintain their reputation as a reliable car brand, that's how they sell their cars. Of those tens of millions, they probably dropped a few million into the development of the appropriate oil filtration system. What makes you think that they got it wrong?
Certain items only have to be "good enough" to get the car out of the warranty stage and the oil filter is one of them. Notice they spared no expense on the air filter which is the most important filter on the car but use a cheap oil filter. The filter is there to catch rocks and birds, not to filter down to the 1 micron level. This doesn't mean you couldn't or shouldn't improve upon the design. Oil filtration has been understood for many years and I doubt they put any significant money into filtration. How long do you think it took an engineer to decide what would and what wouldn't work. They know the flow rate of the pump, the oil viscosity under expected operating conditions, the amount of loading it's likely to encounter, etc. The most likely scenario is the engineers spec'd a filter closer to the Royal Purple side of things and the bean counters did what they do best and likely accepted what the engineers determined to be the cheapest filter setup that could be used without significantly affecting reliability.
Originally Posted by SamDoe1 View Post
Also, putting in a super duper heavy duty oil filter is like putting race gas in your street TL. Will it hurt? No, but you're just wasting money.
Since the TL shows knock retard under some conditions on 91 octane and not on 100 octane, whether you're wasting your money can be debated. However, filtering your oil better while offering less restriction and less time in filter bypass mode with oil pressure hitting quicker on a cold start sounds like a good idea to me even if it's not necessary.

Another thing not always brought up is the overall quality of assembly, besides what the parts are made of. I've seen some with glue everywhere, even on the "clean" side of the filter. While it might not destroy the engine, I would choose the filter that does not look like it was assembled by a 5yr old with a gallon of Elmer's School Glue.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Majofo View Post
I will add a caveat.. I haven't checked the filters since the merger buyout of champ labs and fram, and that Honda filter posted definitely looks different than the one I took apart years ago which makes me wonder if the same farm is making the Honda filters.
Same here. As soon as I saw that picture I thought it looked much better than the last set of Honda filter pictures. Maybe they have improved.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by I hate cars View Post
Same here. As soon as I saw that picture I thought it looked much better than the last set of Honda filter pictures. Maybe they have improved.
We're right! Honda changed mfg's.. and intuition was right as well.. original Honda filters were made by FilTech (nicer filter shown).

New filters are by Fram (Honeywell). I'm guessing with the buyout, the new conglomerate won out over Filtech's (old filter) bid.


Last edited by Majofo; 03-18-2014 at 08:51 PM.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:44 PM
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I take back my original statement for the time being, the Honda FilTech filters are better than a sock in a soda can. The newer filters, no.

Last edited by Majofo; 03-18-2014 at 08:51 PM.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Majofo View Post
I take back my original statement for the time being, the Honda FilTech filters are better than a sock in a soda can. The newer filters, no.
I don't know if I would go that far lol.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:55 PM
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I'm just being crass..
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Old 03-18-2014, 09:17 PM
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Here's to confirm they are the same as Fram. Apparently the old Filtech's might still be in supply. Probably old stock.

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Old 03-18-2014, 09:39 PM
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It looks like we're back to the sock in a soda can.
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Old 03-18-2014, 09:44 PM
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Sounds like some sophisticated masturbation contraption justn uses..
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Old 03-18-2014, 09:44 PM
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We should tell him an old Honda filter will work.. already lubed.
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Old 03-18-2014, 09:46 PM
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After looking at the Honda filter I think you could gut it for superior flow without hurting filtration. Cut it, remove the media and failure prone cardboard endcaps, glue the shell back together. You now have the same filtration with better flow and reliability.

Mods can put this DIY in the Garage if you like.
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Old 03-18-2014, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Majofo View Post
We should tell him an old Honda filter will work.. already lubed.
It would be a good test for the pressure relief and anti drainback valve.
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Old 03-18-2014, 09:53 PM
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Old 03-18-2014, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by subinf View Post
Pennzoil synthetic
+1

Engine at 155,000 miles still running strong.
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Old 03-19-2014, 01:50 AM
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The best oil is clearly..................oooops nevermind I only know the best oil for an 06
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Old 03-19-2014, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by I hate cars View Post
snipped
You make all valid points but again, what is it worth in the end? I don't doubt the fact that some of the more expensive or non-OEM products are probably better built and have nicer features but what's it worth in the end?

Also, in all my years of driving and with numerous other cars from numerous manufacturers and friends with various other cars and an even broader range of manufacturers, I've never ever blown up an oil filter and I have not known anyone to do so either. I've done cold starts (not started for 8 hours) at -35F all the way up to warm starts at 101F and never destroyed or blew up an oil filter. So what are you guys doing that you are destroying oil filters?

Also, to your comment about engineering time, you wouldn't believe the amount of time spent on the most minor of components. I bet several months were spent on the specifications of an oil filter with a group of people who spent that time doing development work, testing, more testing, validation testing, etc...

Also, the ADBV is designed to prevent dry starts so as long as the filter is full, it's doing the right job. Agreed that silicone is better than rubber, it is for most applications, and it appears that Honda filters use silicone anyway. Being that silicone is a synthetic compound, I would bet that a lot of companies will go that route over time since the price of rubber is quite variable.

You are all free to spend whatever you want on your car but I've never had an issue with running ~5k OCI's on the OEM filter. If you're planning on going longer then sure but I just follow the recommended timings.

FWIW, BMW recommends a 15k (!!) mile OCI on their cars which is total BS. That's one thing the entire community disregards and does 7500-8k mile changes, but still using the OEM filter.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:00 PM
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The BMW OCI isn't that crazy as long as they hold more oil. If it holds 8-10 quarts and uses a cartridge filter it's not that bad. If it holds 5 quarts, that's pushing it.

About the ADBV, it needs to do more than maintain a full filter. If a full filter were all we were after, the TL would probably not need one with its upright filter. There's a column of oil above the filter that needs to be maintained. I know when I pull my filter off a ton of oil comes out from above the filter. I would hate for the pump to have to fill that volume each time it's started before pressure arrives.

One of the reasons I went away from the Amsoil EAO filters was the oil pressure light took slightly longer to go out and when I changed the filter, it was full but hardly any oil came out from above. Their ADBV just wasn't doing it's job and it was evident in time to pressure and when the filter was changed even though it was always full.

You're probably right about engineering. My point was that the bean counters have a large influence and I'm sure the engineers have to compromise a lot.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:18 PM
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He still believes Honda "engineers" the filter.

Almost everything engineered on a Honda is contracted out. That includes the small stuff that you refer to, like the oil filter. You honestly think Honda has a team of engineers behind the oil and filter..

It's contracted out. It meets a certain spec at a hardline price. Done.

A new guy says we can meet the minimum spec at a lower price.. Sure, Welcome to HoMoCo.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Majofo View Post
He still believes Honda "engineers" the filter.

Almost everything engineered on a Honda is contracted out. That includes the small stuff that you refer to, like the oil filter. You honestly think Honda has a team of engineers behind the oil and filter..

It's contracted out. It meets a certain spec at a hardline price. Done.

A new guy says we can meet the minimum spec at a lower price.. Sure, Welcome to HoMoCo.
Lol. You obviously haven't seen the HoMoCo oil field and oil refinery where they make the Genuine Honda Oils right next to their oil filter plant where they mine and grow their own materials to produce oil filters with a team of engineers inspecting each one.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:53 PM
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I wish Honda would refer to themselves as HoMoCo like Ford. I'd apply. Majofo and IHC, the new brewmasters behind the add packs. Sam's application is rejected, overqualified and wants to be paid millions. We work for free..
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Old 03-19-2014, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Majofo View Post
I wish Honda would refer to themselves as HoMoCo like Ford. I'd apply. Majofo and IHC, the new brewmasters behind the add packs. Sam's application is rejected, overqualified and wants to be paid millions. We work for free..
I would work for free at anything called the HoMoCo.

I would supply Turbonut and NFN with free factory oil with my special add pack, sodium silicate, to keep their engines extra clean.

We could buy oil and filters from a major manufacturer and relabel them..... I can't believe no one has thought of this before.
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Old 03-19-2014, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SamDoe1 View Post
You make all valid points but again, what is it worth in the end? I don't doubt the fact that some of the more expensive or non-OEM products are probably better built and have nicer features but what's it worth in the end?

Also, in all my years of driving and with numerous other cars from numerous manufacturers and friends with various other cars and an even broader range of manufacturers, I've never ever blown up an oil filter and I have not known anyone to do so either. I've done cold starts (not started for 8 hours) at -35F all the way up to warm starts at 101F and never destroyed or blew up an oil filter. So what are you guys doing that you are destroying oil filters?

Also, to your comment about engineering time, you wouldn't believe the amount of time spent on the most minor of components. I bet several months were spent on the specifications of an oil filter with a group of people who spent that time doing development work, testing, more testing, validation testing, etc...

Also, the ADBV is designed to prevent dry starts so as long as the filter is full, it's doing the right job. Agreed that silicone is better than rubber, it is for most applications, and it appears that Honda filters use silicone anyway. Being that silicone is a synthetic compound, I would bet that a lot of companies will go that route over time since the price of rubber is quite variable.

You are all free to spend whatever you want on your car but I've never had an issue with running ~5k OCI's on the OEM filter. If you're planning on going longer then sure but I just follow the recommended timings.

FWIW, BMW recommends a 15k (!!) mile OCI on their cars which is total BS. That's one thing the entire community disregards and does 7500-8k mile changes, but still using the OEM filter.

But when you can have a better filter for cheaper than what Honda/Acura is charging for OEM filters, its a no brainer.

BTW I run Bosch 3323 in all 3 of my Acura's and the TL has Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 synthetic in it right now.
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Old 03-20-2014, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Majofo View Post
He still believes Honda "engineers" the filter.

Almost everything engineered on a Honda is contracted out. That includes the small stuff that you refer to, like the oil filter. You honestly think Honda has a team of engineers behind the oil and filter..

It's contracted out. It meets a certain spec at a hardline price. Done.

A new guy says we can meet the minimum spec at a lower price.. Sure, Welcome to HoMoCo.
Do you guys seriously believe the specifications and design of the parts that are outsourced are left to the discretion of the vendor?
Every car manufacturer that I've been associated with has had very specific specifications for each product that is going to be used in their vehicle and the vendor must comply with those specifications. Just because it's outsourced doesn't indicate it's of inferior quality. Some vendors even have and use the dies that have been designed and owned by the manufacturer. I once visited the vendor that manufactured the hydroformed frame for the Vette, quite interesting.

A lot of words, but just like oil, take your pick and it will be fine.
You can check the ISO standards for the filters and go from there.

Last edited by Turbonut; 03-20-2014 at 06:01 AM.
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Old 03-20-2014, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Turbonut View Post
Do you guys seriously believe the specifications and design of the parts that are outsourced are left to the discretion of the vendor?
Every car manufacturer that I've been associated with has had very specific specifications for each product that is going to be used in their vehicle and the vendor must comply with those specifications. Just because it's outsourced doesn't indicate it's of inferior quality. Some vendors even have and use the dies that have been designed and owned by the manufacturer. I once visited the vendor that manufactured the hydroformed frame for the Vette, quite interesting.

A lot of words, but just like oil, take your pick and it will be fine.
You can check the ISO standards for the filters and go from there.
Where did I say it was at the discretion of the vendor? Comprehension problem?
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Old 03-20-2014, 12:25 PM
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The A01 filters are still available to be purchased, most of them only use A01 rather than the honeywell fram filters. As well as honda's oil and filters aren't made by honda themselves, its just like any huge company that outsources their parts, and stamps their logo on it. lol.
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Old 03-20-2014, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Majofo View Post
He still believes Honda "engineers" the filter.

Almost everything engineered on a Honda is contracted out. That includes the small stuff that you refer to, like the oil filter. You honestly think Honda has a team of engineers behind the oil and filter
..
Doesn't look like a comprehension problem on my part, but certainly looks like you believe that Honda engineers have nothing to do with the filter, so untrue. Everything on the car is designed by the manufacturer, and the vendor had better be ISO certified and pass the yearly audits or they'll be on the outside looking in.

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Old 03-20-2014, 03:24 PM
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Yet you leave out the part of my quote that explicitly says filter must meet spec.

Maybe you need glasses grandpa. Selective reading is usually that of a biased mind.
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Old 03-20-2014, 03:27 PM
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Maybe you think the vendor creates their own specification and makes a phantom product meeting such specification without any customer guidance.

Sounds like a winning marketing team to me.
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Old 03-20-2014, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Majofo View Post
Where did I say it was at the discretion of the vendor? Comprehension problem?
Originally Posted by Majofo View Post
You honestly think Honda has a team of engineers behind the oil and filter..

It's contracted out. It meets a certain spec at a hardline price. Done.

A new guy says we can meet the minimum spec at a lower price.. Sure, Welcome to HoMoCo.
If it makes you feel better, I'll copy the entire post, but you may be rolling on the floor, but I'll still add that Honda, as does any manufacturer, has a team of engineers behind each product used, and that includes fluids and filters.
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Old 03-20-2014, 08:13 PM
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Mobil1 with a wix filter
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Old 03-21-2014, 03:20 AM
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Mobile one!!
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Old 03-21-2014, 07:28 AM
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The Mobil One crowd has arrived. I'm guessing the reason you guys are using it is it's "fully synthetic" lol.

Originally Posted by Turbonut View Post
If it makes you feel better, I'll copy the entire post, but you may be rolling on the floor, but I'll still add that Honda, as does any manufacturer, has a team of engineers behind each product used, and that includes fluids and filters.
Are you going to be going to breakfast this morning?
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Majofo (03-21-2014)
Old 03-21-2014, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by I hate cars View Post
Are you going to be going to breakfast this morning?
You buying? Thanks for asking as that's very thoughtful of you, but I already indulged in steak and eggs about 3 hours ago. Good way to start a day.
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Old 03-21-2014, 10:01 AM
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I've always used M1 but I figure I only change the oil once a year in my car anyways (low miles) and I was happy with what Redline did to the trans so I ordered Redline 5W-20, it'll cost me about $30 more but it's not like I change it every 3 months. I have an M1EP filter on the shelf, anybody wanna sway me to buying a RP one or use what I have?
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Old 03-21-2014, 10:10 AM
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Mmmm... Steak and eggs.

I had spam and eggs with a scoop of rice.
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Old 03-21-2014, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by 350 View Post
I've always used M1 but I figure I only change the oil once a year in my car anyways (low miles) and I was happy with what Redline did to the trans so I ordered Redline 5W-20, it'll cost me about $30 more but it's not like I change it every 3 months. I have an M1EP filter on the shelf, anybody wanna sway me to buying a RP one or use what I have?
M1 filters are good. I use them. RP filters are expensive unless you get a deal (oil + filter). I see coupons flying around from time to time. Moreso on the Mobil. If you have an M1 filter.. use it with confidence.
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Old 03-21-2014, 08:33 PM
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I use Shell Rotella T6 5w-40 with a wix filter in my MKIII supra. Would use german castrol but too expensive and hard to find around here. And M1 is not "fully synthetic" I know. Never had a problem with it. Pennzoil platinum is a pretty good choice to. Purolator pure one is a good choice in filter also.
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Old 03-21-2014, 09:47 PM
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i plan on throwing an S2000 filter on there when i do my next oil change. still a good option? i came from an s2000 and i like having a little part of that car on my TL lol.
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