Ruby

Just wanted to say if any of you have high mileage (I have 145k) You might wanna look into a valve adjustment. My mechanic said mine was the worst he'd ever seen, it was ticking loudly for a week before I could get to bring it in. But wow, afterwards its like a new car again. This thing got the pep back in its step! It feels much more responsive and pulls harder than ever now. Just thought I'd share

losiglow

iTrader: (1)

That's the first I've heard of even a high mileage TL having significant out of lash on its valves. Most have said that they've only had to do a very minor adjustment, that the ticking never went away and that there was no change in performance. Yours must have been way out.

Mine used to tick a little. Then I put in 5W30 Redline and it pretty much went away. I'm at 103K.

nfnsquared

^^^ Agreed...Would like to know what the OP's mechanic defines as "worst he's ever seen". And would also like to know how many J32 valve adjustments he's done...

Me thinks your butt dyno is lying to you, but who knows for sure.....

nttstt444

iTrader: (1)

^Maybe its having a placebo effect on him? iv never known a valve adjustment to make any noticeable difference in performance.

Ruby

I'll put it this way, he's a good friend of mine an an ex Acura technician foreman. Before that he worked for Ferrari and Maserati. He's got his own shop now and people with exotics still bring their cars in. When I picked my car up it was parked next to a Murcielago. I'll ask him how far off it was exactly. EDIT: He said they were off two thousanths of an inch.

ez12a

in either case, good on you for maintaining the car.

nttstt444

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I think its something that most people don't bother doing, I had mine done a while back and 2 were barley out of spec. Not really sure if it was worth it or not but, I sleep better at night knowing it was done.

Slpr04UA6

How much are you guys paying for this?


OP- glad the car feels better!

nfnsquared

Off .002" from what? Which valves and which direction? What was the actual measurement of each valve?

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

i have 133k miles...so im just right behind you. i dont hear any noises from my motor though

NBP_BALLER

Its a very light tap noise at idle is when you will mostly hear it. Sitting in the drivers seat its faint, but if you pop the hood you can hear it. All valves get out of adjustment "slightly" due to wear and getting hot/cold. If you've driven honda's/acura's you've heard it i guarantee! The exhaust valves get tight and the intake valves get loose. Its very simple process. I always do mine when I do my 105k when my plugs are out. Bring the cylinder to TDC where there is no preload on the valve and put a feeler gauge in there!

I hate cars

Mine were a little off when I did them at 113,000 miles. A couple exhausts were tight, intakes weren't bad. Exhaust valves get tight from the valve face closing into the seat millions of times. As they both lose metal or get impacted, clearances get tighter since the valves sit up higher in the head now.

The intakes don't have this problem usually because they run much cooler. When they get out of adjustment it's usually on the loose side due to wear between the cam and follower and rocker and stem. Intakes are mostly a loud annoyance, exhausts are quiet and will cause damage once they get too tight and are unable to cool themselves.

If in doubt ill leave the intakes a little on the tight side because they will loosen up over time and I leave the exhausts on the looser end of things because they will tighten up. One of my exhausts I just couldn't get set just perfect. After 30 minutes of trying I left it slightly loose. When I fired it up the valve train was quieter for sure but there was a single tick from that exhaust valve. If I ran the car hard it went away. In 8,000 miles since the adjustment it's already silent. This car has practically zero valve train noise.

I have reason to believe mine were never just right. My exhaust always had a thumping sound at idle in time with a single cylinder since it was brand new. This thumping went away after the adjustment, it had to be one of the tight exhaust valves.

It's hard to get a performance increase from a valve adjustment. If they were far enough off you would notice a difference in idle smoothness and off idle response and idle stability. Any changes would more than likely be from the battery being disconnected and the ECU reset.

I hate cars

I think you're right but I also think a lot of people including mechanics don't know how to properly do a valve adjustment. It does take a certain feel and experience helps. You would be surprised by how many people think they can but can't do it properly. Even though mine were never loud, after I did the adjustment the valve train was nearly silent. My father even commented that it sounds like a sewing machine.

An example is the dealership that takes the car in, in the morning and has it done by the afternoon. The car needs to sit for 24hrs before beginning so you know everything is going to be on the loose side and there will be no change (for the better) in noise.

NBP_BALLER

Stating that many people even mechanics dont know what they are doing can really be said about anything, not just adjusting valves. Im a mechanic myself and have been in the game many years. I work for the #1 Cadillac dealership in the nation, so trust me I know what im doing. ASE certified and GM world class and Ive always owned honda/acuras as my personal cars. You're right about the valves, they wont cause performance issues unless its WAAAAY out which would result in loud ass tapping and your engine probably not running or barely(this is not now or ever the case) A couple thousands is not WAAAAAY out, its normal wear(thats why its recommended to be done). Now as far as letting it sit overnight... Never heard that before. We all know that the engine should not be HOT AS HELL but if you let it sit for a few hours and its below 100 degrees your good to go.

I hate cars

I rest my case.

pohljm

I would prefer overnight cold myself. its not convenient for the customer, but its the best method

nfnsquared

Agreed.

That's correct, only needs to be below 100F....

Ruby

This WAS a LOUD tapping. I almost thought there was something seriously wrong. Even when I started accelerating the tapping would get louder and faster. There is no denying the car is faster. The torque steer is crazy now, before it was barely noticable.

I hate cars

And that's why you have a noisy valve train as stated in other threads and mine is near silent. Different parts cool at different rates. Different parts have different rates of expansion. Every part must be at exactly the same temperature.

Where do you measure this 100F at, the valvecover? The intake manifold? The coolant temp? The internal temp will be considerably higher than anything that's measurable from the outside. The cam will stay hotter longer than the rocker arms. The valve heads will stay hotter longer than the stems. The heads will stay hotter than everything else for a loooong time.

I've pulled the heads off of an engine that had been sitting for 6 hours to do a quick head gasket replacement and while the outside of the engine was cool, the combustion chambers were hot, this includes pistons, heads, and valves. Does anyone think you can get an accurate valve adjustment this way?

There is one way to do it right. The car must be parked over night period.

I hate cars

It sounds like one of the rare cases where you were losing compression from a seriously out of adjustment valve train. It would also be that your fuel trim has changed with the fix, causing the extra pep. If the tick was loud enough it can set off the knock sensor too so you may have been running into timing retard.

I hate cars

Also, you can't make the blanket statement that .002" is nothing. You'll notice that spec gives just .001" of wiggle room for the exhaust adjustment and .002" on the intake.

Lets also note the manual (since we can't use common sense to have a higher standard than the manual) says cylinder head temp must be below 100F. Anyone want to guess how long this takes? Especially if the car is parked indoors with the hood down as most are. It's not going to happen on the day the car is dropped off.

nfnsquared

Ahhh, there you go again, talking out your ass. I did my valve adjustment the day after I changed the timing belt, so the entire engine was indeed stone cold.

The service manual spec only requires the cylinder head temps to be below 100F. That's easily determined by shooting them with an IR gun.

Most dealerships will place a large industrial fan blowing on the engine compartment for a few hours in order to be able to do a same day valve adjustment. There's no need to leave the car sitting overnight.

Up here during the winter, they'll just leave it outside for a couple of hours and then push/pull it into the shop to do the valve adjustment.

pohljm

do you want it done correctly? or do you want the minimum acceptable? overnight is the way to do it correctly.

nfnsquared

If you know more than the Acura engineers and/or the FSM specification of <100F, please share....

I hate cars

You don't have to use personal attacks every time you get angry.

So you just can't do a proper valve adjustment is what you're saying. Next time you may have better luck taking it to a mechanic.
How do you plan to measure cylinder head temps? Shoot the outside? Pull the valve covers off and shoot it there? Tell me, how are you going to know when the core temperature has dropped below 100F by shooting the outside surface of the heads?

Do you honestly think a 300lb chunk of metal that drove in at 160-700F depending on the location is going to cool down to 100F in a few hours even with an industrial fan blowing on it? You've got most of the engine insulated with huge air gaps. There's very little surface area for the air to cool. These engines are water cooled for a reason. A fan will help but it won't make a drastic difference in reducing core temps. Generally accepted core temps are 200-250F. How is it possible someone can believe this will cool off in a few hours?

As I said, I've pulled engines apart after sitting for a few hours. I pulled one of my own apart after waiting 6 hours and while it was cool on the outside, I had to use gloves to handle the heads once they were off. How many engines have you torn down to know whether or not the cylinder head temp is below 100F after sitting for a few hours?

It comes down to this: If you care about doing a good valve job and not a good enough valve job you will let the car sit overnight. If you're trying to turn them out as quickly as possible don't let it fully cool down. It will probably be good enough but it's not going to be as accurate and as such it's going to need another adjustment sooner.

Then there are some people that can't get it right even after sitting all night. If I lived closer to you I would adjust your valves properly just because I'm a nice guy.

nfnsquared

Hehe, unlike your valves, mine are adjusted perfectly. Thanks for playing...

Wow, guess I didn't think I needed to be Captain Obvious, but guess I was wrong: Yes, of course you'd shoot the heads with the valve covers off. If the temps around all of the valves indicates <100F, then you should be fine.

I hate cars

Ah, back to the old "if you know more than the Acura engineers" cop out.

You're naive if you think everything in the manual and all of the engineering that went into the car is done in the customer's best interest. I think we've proven that with the transmission fluid and pressure switches.

Again, tell me how you're determining the core temperature is below 100F. It's not the 100F spec I'm questioning it's the method of determining when the part of the head that can affect valve lash is at 100F. Even then, you want all parts at the same temp.

It's fun arguing this point on the internet but letting the car sit overnight has been the way of doing this for many, many years. It is the only correct way of doing so unless your car specs hot lash adjustments.

I hate cars

You mean Captain Oblivious. Unlike mine? Mine are silent. You have a whole thread dedicated to your noisy valvetrain after adjustment. How can you possibly compare mine vs yours. I have no problems with mine. You chalked your noisy valvetrain up to "it must be a character trait of the engine". I'll bet any amount of money if you take your car to a competent mechanic your valvetrain will be quiet like mine. You're so arrogant you would rather drive around sounding like an old clunker than to admit you can't do the job right and pay someone to fix it.

You assume shooting the temp under the valve covers will tell you the core temp of the heads? That would be a wrong assumption on your part. Under that surface you have more metal, water, metal, and then the entire engine block transferring heat into the heads. The surface temp means nothing.

Again, how many engines have you pulled apart after sitting for a few hours to know that the core temp is 100F or less? I'm going to keep asking until you answer.

UTAH TSX

This is funny how worked up people get, I work at a Honda dealership in Salt Lake City Utah Experimented with this oh 8 or 10 years ago on several odyssey's I got them to maximum temperature allowed for valve adjustment was 78 degrees I believe and slid a feeler gauge in and adjusted it to a slight drag and let it sit over night it was about 50 degrees in the morning there was no difference so the next time I adjusted the valve with the engine at 125 degrees and in the morning it was tighter by .001 mm the valves get looser as the engine warms up that is why they set misfire codes in the morning also nobody has said anything about map readings this how you check for tight valves if the reading is over one volt get them adjusted now or you will be burning valves and replacing them and that is big bucks

I hate cars

Yep, manifold vacuum is a good way for checking for tight valves but its important to have a before reading since there can be a slight variance in normal from vehicle to vehicle or if using the MAP sensor, from sensor to sensor especially over time. I had a thumping sound at idle through the exhaust since the car was brand new which the valve adjustment cured.

nfnsquared

Yup, exactly why there is a FSM temp spec for this... There's been plenty of research/testing done to determine a suitable temp spec for Honda engines..

How did you measure the temps?


True enough, though most of us just did the valve adjustment at the same time we did the T-belt change. Wasn't much extra work in those cases to just pull the valve covers and "git 'er done".

Question on the reliability of the MAP readings... Do most Honda/Acura certified mechanics think they are 100% reliable to determine tight valves??

I hate cars

See, you're finally asking for advice. This is the way to approach things.

nfnsquared

Once again, wrong. I'm asking him how he measured temps for that experiment.

I stand 100% behind using an IR gun on the exposed head...

That, or just put your hand on the head. If it's slightly warm to the touch, you're fine.

I hate cars

Cool. One of us has noisy valves. One of us doesn't. Keep standing by your misguided assumptions.

nfnsquared

Dude, you keep talking out your ass...

Everyone can read my thread on this for themselves to realize the shit you make up:

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-problems-fixes-114/valves-still-noisy-after-valve-adjustment-804186/

I never had excessive valve noise to begin with.

"I know our engines are noted for a somewhat noisy valve train so I'm not sure this really makes any difference but I thought maybe it was time to generate some thoughts on this since many of us 04 owner's have reached or will soon reach this milestone.

I did the valve adjustment at 106,650 miles not because of any problems or excessive valve noise. I did it just because it should be done (and many would argue it was overdue)."

I hate cars

Lol. Who's talking out of their ass? The title of your own thread is "Valves still noisy after valve adjustment". I would take that to mean......um......you have a noisy valve train lol.

Mine were never bad, I could hear them when I had the door open and parked on concrete. After the adjustment, nothing unless the hood is popped and I'm listening for it. Injector tick is just as loud as the valves on this engine. Occasionally I start it up in the garage in the morning with another car parked next to it and I walk around the car to grab my laptop from inside. Even when cold there is just no valve train noise whatsoever. Before the adjustment I could occasionally hear some noise at the drive through, now nothing. So again, you have a noisy valve train and I don't. How do you explain that? If you fly me out there Ill help you for free. Ill even let you watch so you can learn.

nfnsquared

Bwahahaha. What for? To watch you fuck it up?

No thanks, but maybe one of your little Azine teat suckers will take you up on the offer?

I hate cars

Maybe you missed the part where it went away as I said it would in the original thread. I can post the entire quote since you want to take things out of context. In fact I mentioned it in this thread. Telling half truths again? That makes you a liar but we knew that already.

I made a nice offer to allow you to watch me and learn how to adjust valves properly while I fix your screw up so yours can be as quiet as mine and you start cussing. You don't have to cuss every time you look like an ass. Take it like a man, admit defeat and you will earn more respect. I thought I would do something nice for a broken down old man even if you are grumpy most of the time. Last chance to get it fixed properly......

I hate cars

The part in bold is the part you tried to take out of context and it was in this very thread. I explained why it was left loose, that I knew there would be a little noise and that it would go away eventually which it did. Having one noisy valve for a few thousand miles beats having 24 noisy valves for the lifetime of the car and not knowing what you did to screw it up.

nfnsquared

Uh, no, but nice try. That quote from you came 80 posts later:

https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...8&postcount=81