AMSOIL Synthetic Transmission Fluid VS Redline D4 ATF
12-27-2010, 02:48 PM
#161
Keep'n it clean- Orlando
Redline is not wrong. They #1 are covering their asses and #2 have not tested this fluid in a Honda so how can they recommend it?
Honda has the highest AT failure rate of any manufacturer. There are two reasons, the fluid and the failed switches. Either I #1 know more than Honda or #2 Honda just doesn't care.
The number of saved transmissions from the fluid and swtiches on this site alone speaks for itself.
Honda has the highest AT failure rate of any manufacturer. There are two reasons, the fluid and the failed switches. Either I #1 know more than Honda or #2 Honda just doesn't care.
The number of saved transmissions from the fluid and swtiches on this site alone speaks for itself.
12-27-2010, 02:49 PM
#162
Team Owner
If you can calm down for a few posts I will go over the entire thing from start to finish, how's that?
12-27-2010, 02:51 PM
#163
Keep'n it clean- Orlando
Yeah no sweat, sorry if the tone and inflection seems that way... Im just writing as normal.. and yes that would be stellar, cause I do like this site and want to contribute.
12-27-2010, 03:18 PM
#164
On the Job, if you don't want to use Red Line Racing, don't use it!! Jeeezz!! All you want to do is argue. As IHC and Inaccurate and others have said, there are plenty of members on here who have implemented these changes to the transmission and are very happy with the results. (Me included). I have read a few responses where they stated that they didn't feel any difference after the change, but I have not seen one response where the changes caused any problems! Has anybody? My dealer still does not believe me that changing the 3/4 sensors took care of the transmission problem that I was having! They had never heard of that remedy, even from Honda Corp! Of course their fix to the problem was a new transmission at my expense! By reading the advice on here and reading the results of others, I saved myself $$$. I just appreciate others on here that are more knowledgeable about such things than I will ever be, sharing their knowledge and experience. That's what makes this such a great forum, in my humble opinion! The cold weather must be getting to you down there in Orlando!! Give it a break!
12-27-2010, 03:39 PM
#165
Team Owner
From the beginning lol..
In ANY auto, quicker shifts = less wear. The auto's shifts should be timed in miliseconds. It doesn't matter if it's an old TH400 in a drag car or our TLs.
In every instance less FM = quicker shifts.
The reason you can't run straight type F in most transmissions is they will shudder and shifts will be harsh. These are the ONLY reasons not to run it. The only way a Type F fluid can hurt the trans is if it shudders.
When this whole thing started I thought and I'm sure Inaccurate thought we would have to find a mixture that would work. I figured we would have to start mixing the non FM fluid with the Z1 stronger and stronger until we experienced shudder and then back off a little. What we found was that it will not produce shudder in the Honda 5at even at 100%.
Credit goes to Inaccurate because even though I was using a less FM fluid since the car was new I did not have the guts to use the Type F until he did so successfully.
Z1 is loaded with FM. Honda wanted a super smooth shift so they used Z1 with all of it's "slippery" additives to give those smooth shifts at the expense of wear. This in turn hurt holding power and ironically it hurt shift quality.
One thing I should state is how a shift is made in an auto. All gears are continually in mesh with one another. There is no actual shifting of gears going on. You have a clutch pack or band for each gear. When a shift is made, one clutch pack releases while the other applies. Shift timing is the timing of one pack releasing and the other applying. If one releases before the other applies you get an rpm flare. If one applies before the other releases you get a bind. What you want to get is a seamless delivery of power with perfect timing.
What ended up happening with Z1 is a clutch pack would begin applying. It would slip slip slip through most of the shift (producing wear) and then grab all at once as the shift was completed. This grabbing all at once is what you feel in your neck. Shifts are no longer measured in milliseconds as they should be and excessive wear happens.
With the non FM fluid, shifts happen in less than half the time. Shifts are more linear so you can have a shift that happens quicker but since the grabbing is spread out evenly instead of slipping for 90% of the shift you feel a better shift quality with less jerk in your neck and at the same time it's quicker so you're reducing wear on the clutches.
To top it off, a Type F fluid has over 100% more clutch holding power than Z1. Think about this for a sec, 100% is huge! This is why it has saved all of those TLs that had the shudder issue with Z1. With the wear that had occured on the clutches, Z1 no longer gave the trans enough holding power so the clutches slipped even after the shift was over which produced the shudder.
Shudder = clutch slip. Using the non FM fluid with 100% more holding power stopped the shudder by stopping the slippage.
Some of this excessive wear is from the Z1, some is from the pressure switches. The switches were causing excessively long shifts and coupled with a fluid like Z1 that is loaded with FM causing even longer shifts, you got quick failures. Those two things (switches and fluid) sort of feed off of each other when used together. It's like 1+1=3.
Where we are all insanely lucky is our TLs can handle 100% non FM fluid without shudder. We can have it all, better shift quality as felt by yourself and less wear. There is no downside at all.
I'll gladly send you 6 quarts of Redline Racing for a 3x2 so you will see what I mean with the amazing shifts. You won't ever want to run Z1 again.
In ANY auto, quicker shifts = less wear. The auto's shifts should be timed in miliseconds. It doesn't matter if it's an old TH400 in a drag car or our TLs.
In every instance less FM = quicker shifts.
The reason you can't run straight type F in most transmissions is they will shudder and shifts will be harsh. These are the ONLY reasons not to run it. The only way a Type F fluid can hurt the trans is if it shudders.
When this whole thing started I thought and I'm sure Inaccurate thought we would have to find a mixture that would work. I figured we would have to start mixing the non FM fluid with the Z1 stronger and stronger until we experienced shudder and then back off a little. What we found was that it will not produce shudder in the Honda 5at even at 100%.
Credit goes to Inaccurate because even though I was using a less FM fluid since the car was new I did not have the guts to use the Type F until he did so successfully.
Z1 is loaded with FM. Honda wanted a super smooth shift so they used Z1 with all of it's "slippery" additives to give those smooth shifts at the expense of wear. This in turn hurt holding power and ironically it hurt shift quality.
One thing I should state is how a shift is made in an auto. All gears are continually in mesh with one another. There is no actual shifting of gears going on. You have a clutch pack or band for each gear. When a shift is made, one clutch pack releases while the other applies. Shift timing is the timing of one pack releasing and the other applying. If one releases before the other applies you get an rpm flare. If one applies before the other releases you get a bind. What you want to get is a seamless delivery of power with perfect timing.
What ended up happening with Z1 is a clutch pack would begin applying. It would slip slip slip through most of the shift (producing wear) and then grab all at once as the shift was completed. This grabbing all at once is what you feel in your neck. Shifts are no longer measured in milliseconds as they should be and excessive wear happens.
With the non FM fluid, shifts happen in less than half the time. Shifts are more linear so you can have a shift that happens quicker but since the grabbing is spread out evenly instead of slipping for 90% of the shift you feel a better shift quality with less jerk in your neck and at the same time it's quicker so you're reducing wear on the clutches.
To top it off, a Type F fluid has over 100% more clutch holding power than Z1. Think about this for a sec, 100% is huge! This is why it has saved all of those TLs that had the shudder issue with Z1. With the wear that had occured on the clutches, Z1 no longer gave the trans enough holding power so the clutches slipped even after the shift was over which produced the shudder.
Shudder = clutch slip. Using the non FM fluid with 100% more holding power stopped the shudder by stopping the slippage.
Some of this excessive wear is from the Z1, some is from the pressure switches. The switches were causing excessively long shifts and coupled with a fluid like Z1 that is loaded with FM causing even longer shifts, you got quick failures. Those two things (switches and fluid) sort of feed off of each other when used together. It's like 1+1=3.
Where we are all insanely lucky is our TLs can handle 100% non FM fluid without shudder. We can have it all, better shift quality as felt by yourself and less wear. There is no downside at all.
I'll gladly send you 6 quarts of Redline Racing for a 3x2 so you will see what I mean with the amazing shifts. You won't ever want to run Z1 again.
The following users liked this post:
brysta (01-08-2014)
12-27-2010, 04:13 PM
#166
Instructor
I'm not overly car inclined, and my TL is the the first car I've had that I actually care about. That said, I wish I was aware of if I had any shudders when my AT shifts. I can't say that I do notice, or would notice if it was shuddering. I'd definitely notice an rpm spike but I'm not sure I'd recognize a "bind" as IHC suggests.
Regardless, I've already ordered my Redline Racing and plan to do a 3X3 in my TL with 78k miles.
Regardless, I've already ordered my Redline Racing and plan to do a 3X3 in my TL with 78k miles.
12-27-2010, 04:17 PM
#167
onthejob, I dont want to hear another generic quote from redline, unless they explicitly state that they've tested this in a 3g Acura TL, otherwise I dont want to hear their standard disclaimer that applies to all auto tranny's from chevy's and kia's to mercedes and bmer's equally.
12-27-2010, 04:31 PM
#168
Keep'n it clean- Orlando
From the beginning lol..
In ANY auto, quicker shifts = less wear. The auto's shifts should be timed in miliseconds. It doesn't matter if it's an old TH400 in a drag car or our TLs.
In every instance less FM = quicker shifts.
The reason you can't run straight type F in most transmissions is they will shudder and shifts will be harsh. These are the ONLY reasons not to run it. The only way a Type F fluid can hurt the trans is if it shudders.
When this whole thing started I thought and I'm sure Inaccurate thought we would have to find a mixture that would work. I figured we would have to start mixing the non FM fluid with the Z1 stronger and stronger until we experienced shudder and then back off a little. What we found was that it will not produce shudder in the Honda 5at even at 100%.
Credit goes to Inaccurate because even though I was using a less FM fluid since the car was new I did not have the guts to use the Type F until he did so successfully.
Z1 is loaded with FM. Honda wanted a super smooth shift so they used Z1 with all of it's "slippery" additives to give those smooth shifts at the expense of wear. This in turn hurt holding power and ironically it hurt shift quality.
One thing I should state is how a shift is made in an auto. All gears are continually in mesh with one another. There is no actual shifting of gears going on. You have a clutch pack or band for each gear. When a shift is made, one clutch pack releases while the other applies. Shift timing is the timing of one pack releasing and the other applying. If one releases before the other applies you get an rpm flare. If one applies before the other releases you get a bind. What you want to get is a seamless delivery of power with perfect timing.
What ended up happening with Z1 is a clutch pack would begin applying. It would slip slip slip through most of the shift (producing wear) and then grab all at once as the shift was completed. This grabbing all at once is what you feel in your neck. Shifts are no longer measured in milliseconds as they should be and excessive wear happens.
With the non FM fluid, shifts happen in less than half the time. Shifts are more linear so you can have a shift that happens quicker but since the grabbing is spread out evenly instead of slipping for 90% of the shift you feel a better shift quality with less jerk in your neck and at the same time it's quicker so you're reducing wear on the clutches.
To top it off, a Type F fluid has over 100% more clutch holding power than Z1. Think about this for a sec, 100% is huge! This is why it has saved all of those TLs that had the shudder issue with Z1. With the wear that had occured on the clutches, Z1 no longer gave the trans enough holding power so the clutches slipped even after the shift was over which produced the shudder.
Shudder = clutch slip. Using the non FM fluid with 100% more holding power stopped the shudder by stopping the slippage.
Some of this excessive wear is from the Z1, some is from the pressure switches. The switches were causing excessively long shifts and coupled with a fluid like Z1 that is loaded with FM causing even longer shifts, you got quick failures. Those two things (switches and fluid) sort of feed off of each other when used together. It's like 1+1=3.
Where we are all insanely lucky is our TLs can handle 100% non FM fluid without shudder. We can have it all, better shift quality as felt by yourself and less wear. There is no downside at all.
I'll gladly send you 6 quarts of Redline Racing for a 3x2 so you will see what I mean with the amazing shifts. You won't ever want to run Z1 again.
In ANY auto, quicker shifts = less wear. The auto's shifts should be timed in miliseconds. It doesn't matter if it's an old TH400 in a drag car or our TLs.
In every instance less FM = quicker shifts.
The reason you can't run straight type F in most transmissions is they will shudder and shifts will be harsh. These are the ONLY reasons not to run it. The only way a Type F fluid can hurt the trans is if it shudders.
When this whole thing started I thought and I'm sure Inaccurate thought we would have to find a mixture that would work. I figured we would have to start mixing the non FM fluid with the Z1 stronger and stronger until we experienced shudder and then back off a little. What we found was that it will not produce shudder in the Honda 5at even at 100%.
Credit goes to Inaccurate because even though I was using a less FM fluid since the car was new I did not have the guts to use the Type F until he did so successfully.
Z1 is loaded with FM. Honda wanted a super smooth shift so they used Z1 with all of it's "slippery" additives to give those smooth shifts at the expense of wear. This in turn hurt holding power and ironically it hurt shift quality.
One thing I should state is how a shift is made in an auto. All gears are continually in mesh with one another. There is no actual shifting of gears going on. You have a clutch pack or band for each gear. When a shift is made, one clutch pack releases while the other applies. Shift timing is the timing of one pack releasing and the other applying. If one releases before the other applies you get an rpm flare. If one applies before the other releases you get a bind. What you want to get is a seamless delivery of power with perfect timing.
What ended up happening with Z1 is a clutch pack would begin applying. It would slip slip slip through most of the shift (producing wear) and then grab all at once as the shift was completed. This grabbing all at once is what you feel in your neck. Shifts are no longer measured in milliseconds as they should be and excessive wear happens.
With the non FM fluid, shifts happen in less than half the time. Shifts are more linear so you can have a shift that happens quicker but since the grabbing is spread out evenly instead of slipping for 90% of the shift you feel a better shift quality with less jerk in your neck and at the same time it's quicker so you're reducing wear on the clutches.
To top it off, a Type F fluid has over 100% more clutch holding power than Z1. Think about this for a sec, 100% is huge! This is why it has saved all of those TLs that had the shudder issue with Z1. With the wear that had occured on the clutches, Z1 no longer gave the trans enough holding power so the clutches slipped even after the shift was over which produced the shudder.
Shudder = clutch slip. Using the non FM fluid with 100% more holding power stopped the shudder by stopping the slippage.
Some of this excessive wear is from the Z1, some is from the pressure switches. The switches were causing excessively long shifts and coupled with a fluid like Z1 that is loaded with FM causing even longer shifts, you got quick failures. Those two things (switches and fluid) sort of feed off of each other when used together. It's like 1+1=3.
Where we are all insanely lucky is our TLs can handle 100% non FM fluid without shudder. We can have it all, better shift quality as felt by yourself and less wear. There is no downside at all.
I'll gladly send you 6 quarts of Redline Racing for a 3x2 so you will see what I mean with the amazing shifts. You won't ever want to run Z1 again.
Now if I really want to go "full tilt" and eliminate all the FM for the most or in your words "100 percent" protection and advantage then the Type F in our trans will help me on both aspects...and I could have 0 worries what so ever?
Thanks for the offer for the fluid I don't think that would be necessary although its a great offer.
I guess all my concern from my previous posts was putting a new fluid in that had something "missing" (fm) from the factory formula... either way the info is well taken and I understand the effects of eliminating the FM from my fluid choices.
I guess since I really love my car and want it to last for so long as possible, I have been overly cautious as to what goes into her, and the different point of views I present here are never meant to be argumentative, there meant to be objective questions to get us to analyze both sides of the thought process.
Thanks again.
12-27-2010, 04:32 PM
#169
Keep'n it clean- Orlando
onthejob, I dont want to hear another generic quote from redline, unless they explicitly state that they've tested this in a 3g Acura TL, otherwise I dont want to hear their standard disclaimer that applies to all auto tranny's from chevy's and kia's to mercedes and bmer's equally.
12-27-2010, 05:17 PM
#170
onthejob, I'm glad that you have put in your input to this discussion. It's good to have both sides of the arguement, and hearing it directly from redline not to use that fluid is definitely a big red flag to me. people need to calm down and realize that you're just trying to figure out what's best for your car.
Also, thanks IHC for spelling that whole process for all of us, it definitely helped me see things more clearly, and it saved me a lot of time trying to read through that other huge thread on this subject.
Also, thanks IHC for spelling that whole process for all of us, it definitely helped me see things more clearly, and it saved me a lot of time trying to read through that other huge thread on this subject.
12-27-2010, 05:23 PM
#171
Team Owner
You can roughly classify the oils like this:
Super friction modified:
Z1, ATF+4
Average FM (DexIII)
D4, Amsoil ATF, Mobil One, any DexIII, Royal Purple's regular sythetic oil, and the vast majority of the rest.
Non FM:
Redline Racing, Amsoil Super Shift, B&M Racing, etc.
Thanks for the offer for the fluid I don't think that would be necessary although its a great offer.
I guess all my concern from my previous posts was putting a new fluid in that had something "missing" (fm) from the factory formula... either way the info is well taken and I understand the effects of eliminating the FM from my fluid choices.
I guess all my concern from my previous posts was putting a new fluid in that had something "missing" (fm) from the factory formula... either way the info is well taken and I understand the effects of eliminating the FM from my fluid choices.
I guess since I really love my car and want it to last for so long as possible, I have been overly cautious as to what goes into her, and the different point of views I present here are never meant to be argumentative, there meant to be objective questions to get us to analyze both sides of the thought process.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
12-27-2010, 05:25 PM
#172
Team Owner
onthejob, I'm glad that you have put in your input to this discussion. It's good to have both sides of the arguement, and hearing it directly from redline not to use that fluid is definitely a big red flag to me. people need to calm down and realize that you're just trying to figure out what's best for your car.
Also, thanks IHC for spelling that whole process for all of us, it definitely helped me see things more clearly, and it saved me a lot of time trying to read through that other huge thread on this subject.
Also, thanks IHC for spelling that whole process for all of us, it definitely helped me see things more clearly, and it saved me a lot of time trying to read through that other huge thread on this subject.
12-27-2010, 05:58 PM
#173
It's your fault that you're not asking the right questions from Redline, you ask a generic and vague question from them and you got a generic and vague answer in response, then you claim it as fact, applying it to our specific situation. Instead of asking them if the Type F should be used in OEM auto trannys, why dont you ask them if they've tested the type F fluid in a 3g Acura TL? I dont want to know whether or not the type F should or should be used in most oem auto tranny's out there, that is meaningless information to me, I want to know whether it can be used in our specific vehicle.
12-27-2010, 06:08 PM
#174
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Just buy my 12quarts of Redline D4 I have and see for yourself. 
The shifts between my 2006 TL and my brothers 2006 TL is crazy. He still runs Honda Tranny Fluid but I switched to D4. Even he, a non-car enthusiasts could tell the difference in the quality.
The shifts between my 2006 TL and my brothers 2006 TL is crazy. He still runs Honda Tranny Fluid but I switched to D4. Even he, a non-car enthusiasts could tell the difference in the quality.
12-27-2010, 07:09 PM
#175
Keep'n it clean- Orlando
It's your fault that you're not asking the right questions from Redline, you ask a generic and vague question from them and you got a generic and vague answer in response, then you claim it as fact, applying it to our specific situation. Instead of asking them if the Type F should be used in OEM auto trannys, why dont you ask them if they've tested the type F fluid in a 3g Acura TL? I dont want to know whether or not the type F should or should be used in most oem auto tranny's out there, that is meaningless information to me, I want to know whether it can be used in our specific vehicle.
Last edited by OntheJob; 12-27-2010 at 07:13 PM.
12-27-2010, 07:12 PM
#176
Keep'n it clean- Orlando
onthejob, I'm glad that you have put in your input to this discussion. It's good to have both sides of the arguement, and hearing it directly from redline not to use that fluid is definitely a big red flag to me. people need to calm down and realize that you're just trying to figure out what's best for your car.
Also, thanks IHC for spelling that whole process for all of us, it definitely helped me see things more clearly, and it saved me a lot of time trying to read through that other huge thread on this subject.
Also, thanks IHC for spelling that whole process for all of us, it definitely helped me see things more clearly, and it saved me a lot of time trying to read through that other huge thread on this subject.
12-27-2010, 07:18 PM
#177
Keep'n it clean- Orlando
Again thanks for all the help again though....
12-27-2010, 07:24 PM
#178
Team Owner
Exactly my point and so glad that someone else on here is willing to see the RED FLAG.... ihatecars.... what do you take from the convo I had from redline, although I see and agree with what ive learned here today, the fact that redline told me not to use it was a huge redflag as stated here and still left me concerned after the call... your thoughts on that point?
The Redline guy said it would cause shudder....It doesn't.
He said it could cause harsh shifts..... It doesn't.
What we know for sure is it gives quicker shifts and I have paid enough money for the technical papers to know that there is tons of evidence that quicker shifts equal less wear. One of the papers states specifically the benefits of a non FM fluid in auto transmissions as long as it does not shudder.
The TL is not the only car I've done this with. For many years I've done it in my GN which spec'd a DexIII fluid which is what D4 is. The Type F significantly extends the life of those transmissions and I have 200,000 miles, thousands of 1/4 passes, and over 700lbs of torque going through it to prove it works. A type F was never recommended for it and I was told basically the same thing as we are told about the TL.
Everything that's recommended is a compromise, it's not always what the engineers themselves would recommend. The average 50 year owner of a Tl wants soft shifts over durability so that's what they get.
Think about this, Honda states that you can run DexIII in the trans in an emergency situation but it must be switched back to Z1 or damage will be done. I've been running a DexIII fluid since the car had 20,000 miles and now it has nearly 100,000 miles.
Honda did nothing to prevent or fix the 100,000 or so 2nd gen trans failures it had. The 3Gs were experiencing a couple new pending failures a week on here. The fluid and switches completely stopped the 3G from becoming like the 2G. Honda is nowhere in sight. They don't even know about the switch issue. They have finally come out with a new fluid that's a little closer to a DexIII fluid that completely replaced Z1.... I wonder why. They're only 10 years too late.
Look around on here at the tons of people running Redline Racing. Not a single failure or issue. Not even a drivability issue. Nothing but praise on how good is shifts and how it cures shudder.
12-27-2010, 08:08 PM
#180
Safety Car
The fact that Acura says to use Z1 and then a person sees tons of clutch material on the magnetic drain plug and seeing the many trans failures on Acurazine from completely worn away clutch material should be a huge redflag too.
What causes excessively worn away clutch material? Too much FM.
What causes excessively worn away clutch material? Too much FM.
12-27-2010, 08:16 PM
#181
Keep'n it clean- Orlando
Funny, yours as well.... and Yes, I told him what car I had and asked repeated times and was extremely DIRECT, so your opinion of my "vague" convo is off base... and if I didnt write it too well to understand I am sorry, via the phone I was very specific with the gentlemen.
Last edited by OntheJob; 12-27-2010 at 08:22 PM.
12-27-2010, 08:17 PM
#182
Keep'n it clean- Orlando
The fact that Acura says to use Z1 and then a person sees tons of clutch material on the magnetic drain plug and seeing the many trans failures on Acurazine from completely worn away clutch material should be a huge redflag too.
What causes excessively worn away clutch material? Too much FM.
What causes excessively worn away clutch material? Too much FM.
Last edited by OntheJob; 12-27-2010 at 08:24 PM.
12-27-2010, 08:20 PM
#183
Keep'n it clean- Orlando
It's no big deal. They have never tried it and getting them to say much besides the standard stuff is nearly impossible. I know one of the design engineers of the Ford modular engine series. Listening to what he says on the internet vs on a friendship level is night and day. I get the scoop on light weight oils, why they're run and how much the engineers hate them yet on the internet they will defend them in a round about way. That's why I put no weight on it.
The Redline guy said it would cause shudder....It doesn't.
He said it could cause harsh shifts..... It doesn't.
What we know for sure is it gives quicker shifts and I have paid enough money for the technical papers to know that there is tons of evidence that quicker shifts equal less wear. One of the papers states specifically the benefits of a non FM fluid in auto transmissions as long as it does not shudder.
The TL is not the only car I've done this with. For many years I've done it in my GN which spec'd a DexIII fluid which is what D4 is. The Type F significantly extends the life of those transmissions and I have 200,000 miles, thousands of 1/4 passes, and over 700lbs of torque going through it to prove it works. A type F was never recommended for it and I was told basically the same thing as we are told about the TL.
Everything that's recommended is a compromise, it's not always what the engineers themselves would recommend. The average 50 year owner of a Tl wants soft shifts over durability so that's what they get.
Think about this, Honda states that you can run DexIII in the trans in an emergency situation but it must be switched back to Z1 or damage will be done. I've been running a DexIII fluid since the car had 20,000 miles and now it has nearly 100,000 miles.
Honda did nothing to prevent or fix the 100,000 or so 2nd gen trans failures it had. The 3Gs were experiencing a couple new pending failures a week on here. The fluid and switches completely stopped the 3G from becoming like the 2G. Honda is nowhere in sight. They don't even know about the switch issue. They have finally come out with a new fluid that's a little closer to a DexIII fluid that completely replaced Z1.... I wonder why. They're only 10 years too late.
Look around on here at the tons of people running Redline Racing. Not a single failure or issue. Not even a drivability issue. Nothing but praise on how good is shifts and how it cures shudder.
The Redline guy said it would cause shudder....It doesn't.
He said it could cause harsh shifts..... It doesn't.
What we know for sure is it gives quicker shifts and I have paid enough money for the technical papers to know that there is tons of evidence that quicker shifts equal less wear. One of the papers states specifically the benefits of a non FM fluid in auto transmissions as long as it does not shudder.
The TL is not the only car I've done this with. For many years I've done it in my GN which spec'd a DexIII fluid which is what D4 is. The Type F significantly extends the life of those transmissions and I have 200,000 miles, thousands of 1/4 passes, and over 700lbs of torque going through it to prove it works. A type F was never recommended for it and I was told basically the same thing as we are told about the TL.
Everything that's recommended is a compromise, it's not always what the engineers themselves would recommend. The average 50 year owner of a Tl wants soft shifts over durability so that's what they get.
Think about this, Honda states that you can run DexIII in the trans in an emergency situation but it must be switched back to Z1 or damage will be done. I've been running a DexIII fluid since the car had 20,000 miles and now it has nearly 100,000 miles.
Honda did nothing to prevent or fix the 100,000 or so 2nd gen trans failures it had. The 3Gs were experiencing a couple new pending failures a week on here. The fluid and switches completely stopped the 3G from becoming like the 2G. Honda is nowhere in sight. They don't even know about the switch issue. They have finally come out with a new fluid that's a little closer to a DexIII fluid that completely replaced Z1.... I wonder why. They're only 10 years too late.
Look around on here at the tons of people running Redline Racing. Not a single failure or issue. Not even a drivability issue. Nothing but praise on how good is shifts and how it cures shudder.
12-27-2010, 08:46 PM
#184
Funny, yours as well.... and Yes, I told him what car I had and asked repeated times and was extremely DIRECT, so your opinion of my "vague" convo is off base... and if I didnt write it too well to understand I am sorry, via the phone I was very specific with the gentlemen.
02-18-2011, 12:56 AM
#187
I just did a 2x3 transmission flush with Redline D4 ATF, and there has been a big improvement in shifting. There was a crazy amount of metal on the drain plug.
But the question is...I'm planning to do a 1x3 flush in a month or two can I use Type F, or I must use D4?
But the question is...I'm planning to do a 1x3 flush in a month or two can I use Type F, or I must use D4?
03-05-2011, 12:02 PM
#190
You guys need to use search more.
© 2008 American Honda Motor Co., Inc. – All Rights Reserved 1 of 1
ServiceNews Article
Helping you fix it right the first time - every time
Some A/T repair procedures call for flushing the trans using Honda Genuine ATF-Z1 (and no substitutes).
Problem is, where do you find the info to do that? It’s not listed in the S/Ms, and if you do an ISIS search,
you’ll find a few ServiceNews articles on this subject, but they’re rather dated, and none of them say the
same thing. Even the most recent one (see “Revised A/T Flushing Procedure” in the December ’00 issue)
still mentions that old work horse—the PGM Tester—which we stopped supporting when the HDS first
came on the scene.
NOTE: The term “flushing” refers to repeatedly draining and refilling the trans with Honda Genuine
ATF-Z1. Don’t confuse it with aftermarket flush systems. American Honda still strongly recommends that
you avoid using them on any Honda vehicle.
The original procedure was written for simpler A/Ts that readily upshifted when you ran the vehicle on a lift.
But A/Ts have come a long way since then, and most of the newer ones balk at shifting past 2nd gear
when on a lift, unless you work the shift lever a certain way.
In light of all this, we thought it was high time that the A/T flushing procedure got a facelift. So here’s the
latest word on flushing that works for all A/Ts:
1. Set the parking brake, and raise the vehicle on a lift.
2. Drain the trans, and refill it with Honda Genuine ATF-Z1. Refer to the applicable S/M or to ISIS for
details.
3. Start the engine, shift into Drive, and release the parking brake.
4. Push down on the accelerator pedal to raise the vehicle speed to 2,500 rpm.
• If the trans shifts past 2nd gear, go to step 5.
• If the trans won’t shift past 2nd gear, keep the engine speed at 2,500 rpm and shift from Drive to
Neutral and back to Drive. Then go to step 5.
5. Make sure that the trans shifts through all the forward gears and goes into torque converter lockup.
6. Let off the accelerator pedal, and press the brake pedal to drop the vehicle speed to zero. Shift into
Reverse and then into Neutral.
7. Shift into Drive, and repeat steps 4 thru 6 four more times.
8. Set the parking brake, and repeat steps 2 thru 6 two more times.
9. Drain the trans, and reinstall the drain plug with a new sealing washer.
10. Refill the A/T with ATF-Z1.
Jan 2008
Check Out the Latest Word on A/T Flushing
Currently Applies To: General Information
A08010A
© 2008 American Honda Motor Co., Inc. – All Rights Reserved 1 of 1
ServiceNews Article
Helping you fix it right the first time - every time
Some A/T repair procedures call for flushing the trans using Honda Genuine ATF-Z1 (and no substitutes).
Problem is, where do you find the info to do that? It’s not listed in the S/Ms, and if you do an ISIS search,
you’ll find a few ServiceNews articles on this subject, but they’re rather dated, and none of them say the
same thing. Even the most recent one (see “Revised A/T Flushing Procedure” in the December ’00 issue)
still mentions that old work horse—the PGM Tester—which we stopped supporting when the HDS first
came on the scene.
NOTE: The term “flushing” refers to repeatedly draining and refilling the trans with Honda Genuine
ATF-Z1. Don’t confuse it with aftermarket flush systems. American Honda still strongly recommends that
you avoid using them on any Honda vehicle.
The original procedure was written for simpler A/Ts that readily upshifted when you ran the vehicle on a lift.
But A/Ts have come a long way since then, and most of the newer ones balk at shifting past 2nd gear
when on a lift, unless you work the shift lever a certain way.
In light of all this, we thought it was high time that the A/T flushing procedure got a facelift. So here’s the
latest word on flushing that works for all A/Ts:
1. Set the parking brake, and raise the vehicle on a lift.
2. Drain the trans, and refill it with Honda Genuine ATF-Z1. Refer to the applicable S/M or to ISIS for
details.
3. Start the engine, shift into Drive, and release the parking brake.
4. Push down on the accelerator pedal to raise the vehicle speed to 2,500 rpm.
• If the trans shifts past 2nd gear, go to step 5.
• If the trans won’t shift past 2nd gear, keep the engine speed at 2,500 rpm and shift from Drive to
Neutral and back to Drive. Then go to step 5.
5. Make sure that the trans shifts through all the forward gears and goes into torque converter lockup.
6. Let off the accelerator pedal, and press the brake pedal to drop the vehicle speed to zero. Shift into
Reverse and then into Neutral.
7. Shift into Drive, and repeat steps 4 thru 6 four more times.
8. Set the parking brake, and repeat steps 2 thru 6 two more times.
9. Drain the trans, and reinstall the drain plug with a new sealing washer.
10. Refill the A/T with ATF-Z1.
Jan 2008
Check Out the Latest Word on A/T Flushing
Currently Applies To: General Information
A08010A
03-05-2011, 12:04 PM
#191
Make it so
...and along with the above post, my question is whether or not it's recommended to to a full flush and fill from Z1 to RL Type F? I have read through the entire thread and my only concern is the "shock" to the TL from going from an FM-laden fluid to something with no FM at all.
I know IHC mentioned that there is absolutely downside to using Type F since the TL can handle the fluid, but I'm worried about the initial break-in period.
Everything I read about this issue over the last few months left me thinking that D4 was the way to go, but this entire thread just threw that idea out the window.
I know IHC mentioned that there is absolutely downside to using Type F since the TL can handle the fluid, but I'm worried about the initial break-in period.
Everything I read about this issue over the last few months left me thinking that D4 was the way to go, but this entire thread just threw that idea out the window.
03-05-2011, 02:41 PM
#192
Instructor
...and along with the above post, my question is whether or not it's recommended to to a full flush and fill from Z1 to RL Type F? I have read through the entire thread and my only concern is the "shock" to the TL from going from an FM-laden fluid to something with no FM at all.
I know IHC mentioned that there is absolutely downside to using Type F since the TL can handle the fluid, but I'm worried about the initial break-in period.
Everything I read about this issue over the last few months left me thinking that D4 was the way to go, but this entire thread just threw that idea out the window.
I know IHC mentioned that there is absolutely downside to using Type F since the TL can handle the fluid, but I'm worried about the initial break-in period.
Everything I read about this issue over the last few months left me thinking that D4 was the way to go, but this entire thread just threw that idea out the window.
03-06-2011, 06:53 AM
#193
HE>i
iTrader: (1)
^+1
i went all in with a 4x3. (2qts racing/1qt lightweight each time)
also, there will still be some z1 left, because it will only get mixed with the new fluid.
IHC or Inacc posted a chart in here somewhere with all the calculations/ percentages of each drain and refill
i went all in with a 4x3. (2qts racing/1qt lightweight each time)
also, there will still be some z1 left, because it will only get mixed with the new fluid.
IHC or Inacc posted a chart in here somewhere with all the calculations/ percentages of each drain and refill
03-06-2011, 10:32 PM
#194
Cruisin'
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Doing a 3x3 tranny flush w/ redline racing is it ok with 110k on the clock?
I have been searching posts all night and couldnt get a definite answer
Just got an 04 TL with 110k on the clock, not sure when or if the previous owner has changed the fluid
It seems like the best fluid is the redline racing type F fluid
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=52&pcid=9
I was also considering using the Amsoil ATF fluid b/c it seemed like less of an aggressive step
my fear is that when I do a 3x3 my trans will start to slip if the fluid has never been changed before... I know that can be BS but has anyone done the change and had or not had problems
thanks in advance!
Just got an 04 TL with 110k on the clock, not sure when or if the previous owner has changed the fluid
It seems like the best fluid is the redline racing type F fluid
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=52&pcid=9
I was also considering using the Amsoil ATF fluid b/c it seemed like less of an aggressive step
my fear is that when I do a 3x3 my trans will start to slip if the fluid has never been changed before... I know that can be BS but has anyone done the change and had or not had problems
thanks in advance!
03-06-2011, 10:44 PM
#197
Safety Car
Here are the refill percentages below. Note that after 10 refills, the percentage of new fluid is 99.5%. This is close enough to round-off to 100% IMO.
1= 40%
2= 65%
3= 79%
4= 87%
5= 92%
6= 96%
7= 97%
8= 98%
9= 99%
10= 99.5%
Note - These percentages are for the Base 5AT TL. The Type-S 5AT might differ.
1= 40%
2= 65%
3= 79%
4= 87%
5= 92%
6= 96%
7= 97%
8= 98%
9= 99%
10= 99.5%
Note - These percentages are for the Base 5AT TL. The Type-S 5AT might differ.
03-06-2011, 10:53 PM
#199
Suzuka Master
Here are the refill percentages below. Note that after 10 refills, the percentage of new fluid is 99.5%. This is close enough to round-off to 100% IMO.
1= 40%
2= 65%
3= 79%
4= 87%
5= 92%
6= 96%
7= 97%
8= 98%
9= 99%
10= 99.5%
Note - These percentages are for the Base 5AT TL. The Type-S 5AT might differ.
1= 40%
2= 65%
3= 79%
4= 87%
5= 92%
6= 96%
7= 97%
8= 98%
9= 99%
10= 99.5%
Note - These percentages are for the Base 5AT TL. The Type-S 5AT might differ.
03-08-2011, 09:27 AM
#200
Suzuka Master
I understand that after each 3Q fill you should drive the car so it passes through all the gears to mix both old & new fluid.... now here is the question I have ... can this be done on the lift?
Would save a lot of time ...
Would save a lot of time ...