When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Yes, go ahead and replace the pressure sensors while you're at it. The 07/08 transmissions have 3 sensors. There's a pretty good DIY on the forum for it.
Yup, I found it. I'm ordering the parts now. Reading everything I have, at this point I'm going to replace the sensors and see how that feels after a little bit. Then do a 3 quart change with straight D4, and as long as that doesn't make the tranny angry, do a full 3x3 with straight D4.
Yup, I found it. I'm ordering the parts now. Reading everything I have, at this point I'm going to replace the sensors and see how that feels after a little bit. Then do a 3 quart change with straight D4, and as long as that doesn't make the tranny angry, do a full 3x3 with straight D4.
Any particular reason you're choosing to run D4 vs Honda DW1?
Got it. Just curious. I don't think DW1 is magic by any means but I simply do a drain and fill of DW-1 every 10k miles and call it a day. If your trans is healthy and working fine, I don't think changing fluids will be an issue.
Got it. Just curious. I don't think DW1 is magic by any means but I simply do a drain and fill of DW-1 every 10k miles and call it a day. If your trans is healthy and working fine, I don't think changing fluids will be an issue.
Totally fair question. I didn't walk in here expecting to be spoonfed everything I need to know, but the forum guys who have been around a while have additional insight than what's necessarily out there or easy to find, so I'm happy to listen.
Totally fair question. I didn't walk in here expecting to be spoonfed everything I need to know, but the forum guys who have been around a while have additional insight than what's necessarily out there or easy to find, so I'm happy to listen.
Well I wouldn't be aggressive about the D4 fluid, remember the article was published around 2010-2011 where most the vehicle is about 3-5 years old and here some thing to note for
1. Majority 07-08 model def was in 4 years/50,000 miles warranty and if they passed that point it still in cover by the powertrain 6 years/70,000 miles.
2. The car still "newish" then where it doesn't matter what fluid was used between switching.
3. OEM/ original fluid wasn't in the car for that long so that why most people ok to get away from it.
4. AT clutch pack will expand IF there too much new fluid present.
5. Pressure switches drift out of specs after years of fluid not being change.
6. Most people won't bother with ATF unless their AT starting to acting up and this is why the fluid getting blame for.
7. No OEM fluid does not contain any magic but telling the Honda engineer team don't know sh*t isn't entirely true. T
The majority case of AT failure present as follow.
1. Current owner didn't bought the car since new, most of them bought as used car.
2. If the current owner bought the car since new did they change the fluid every 15k-20k miles?
3. People won't bother change ATF and pressure switches unitl something funny with the AT in the end the new fluid getting blame for.
4. I see plenty of 3g TL owner who does not maint their AT and yet does Neutral drop and alot more stupid shit (well since the 3g TL is dirt cheap now on the used car market). They think thy are driving a NSX.
Well I wouldn't be aggressive about the D4 fluid, remember the article was published around 2010-2011 where most the vehicle is about 3-5 years old and here some thing to note for
1. Majority 07-08 model def was in 4 years/50,000 miles warranty and if they passed that point it still in cover by the powertrain 6 years/70,000 miles.
2. The car still "newish" then where it doesn't matter what fluid was used between switching.
3. OEM/ original fluid wasn't in the car for that long so that why most people ok to get away from it.
4. AT clutch pack will expand IF there too much new fluid present.
5. Pressure switches drift out of specs after years of fluid not being change.
6. Most people won't bother with ATF unless their AT starting to acting up and this is why the fluid getting blame for.
7. No OEM fluid does not contain any magic but telling the Honda engineer team don't know sh*t isn't entirely true. T
Regarding how to go about doing the change, I was reading an old post from here about how quickly to introduce new fluids. User dcmodels said the following:
Originally Posted by dcmodels
Concerning how long to wait between ATF fluid changes, the following is what I have read, makes sense to me, and is what I would do.
Perform 3-drains at 200 mile intervals, wait another 1000 miles, and do at least one more drain, possibly 2-3 more. Here is why ...
The new detergent in the new ATF will begin to clean any deposits already inside the trans. If a 3x3 is done in a short mileage interval, then over the next 1000 miles, most of the existing deposits will be *cleaned* and the *new* ATF will be completely saturated with deposts held in suspension. In other words, the all new ATF will be very dirty, very abrasive, and cause wear.
By performing the drains at intervals, that will allow the *new* ATF to slowly clean and suspend existing deposts. Then the next drain will remove those deposits, and the next fill will again do additional cleaning and suspension of deposits.
This procedure will mean that the total amount of suspended deposits at any one time is more limited, yet you slowly clean and remove all of the existing deposits already in the trans. Hope that this is clear.
You should be able to monitor the cleaning progress of your ATF drains by just checking the amount of material on the drain plug magnet. Just keep in mind that is only part of the deposits - the magnetic particles. The clutch particles are not magnetic, won't be on the drain plug magnet, so checking the magnet will not give you a completely accurate picture of how much deposits are held in suspension in the ATF. These particles are so small, I don't know of a practical way of checking the amount of them.
I'm generally inclined to go with a synthetic oil since they break down so much slower and in general lubricate more effectively. And introducing it more slowly as dcmodels is suggesting would potentially help with the issues you brought up, though that's a definite maybe. However, you sure wouldn't be the first person to say "X vehicle has so many (>100k, >200k, etc) miles, you shouldn't switch the (engine/trans/etc) fluid to full synthetic at this point. I haven't yet found significant evidence one way or the other. A couple of you in this thread, however, lean towards sticking with the DW-1.
Acura has recommended that DW1 be used in the 3G, so if one were to look up a let's say a 2013 Acura TL on the RedLine site, the D4 is not recommended.
D6 is the recommended fluid.
Your choice!
I'm generally inclined to go with a synthetic oil since they break down so much slower and in general lubricate more effectively. And introducing it more slowly as dcmodels is suggesting would potentially help with the issues you brought up, though that's a definite maybe. However, you sure wouldn't be the first person to say "X vehicle has so many (>100k, >200k, etc) miles, you shouldn't switch the (engine/trans/etc) fluid to full synthetic at this point. I haven't yet found significant evidence one way or the other. A couple of you in this thread, however, lean towards sticking with the DW-1.
Here's the thing about ATF, let's say for the sake of argument a different ATF has a superior oil compared to DW-1, that in no way means the different ATF is better in a Honda transmission, in fact there is a highly probable chance it is far less suitable. How/why? It is a matter of coefficient of friction (COF); most manufacturers design their clutches and transmission controllers to expect a very specific COF, if the ATF is too slippery, the clutches will not fully engage in the timeframe the controller is expecting, and it will cycle the clutches, over and over and over, causing accelerated wear, however, if the COF provides too much friction, the clutches will grab too quickly causing harsh shifts and a gradual acceleration in wear. Are you willing to bet the synthetic ATF you have in mind is a suitable replacement for DW-1? I sure as heck am not.
Yet we put AC Delco syncromesh in our manuals. Lol
Utterly different scenario, there are no internal clutches in a manual transmission; that and Honda MTF has proven to be insufficient to properly allow the transmission to properly operate. In my case, had I left the Honda MTF in my transmission for much longer, both the third gear cog and synchro would have soon been ruined from the grinding and the popping out of gear. So, I was faced with a complete transmission teardown and rebuild, or, give the ACDelco Synchromesh Friction Modified in my transmission to see if I could eek a few more miles out of it. Here we are 20,000 miles later and the transmission is still one of the smoothest shifting manuals I've ever had the pleasure to stir.
Here's the thing about ATF, let's say for the sake of argument a different ATF has a superior oil compared to DW-1, that in no way means the different ATF is better in a Honda transmission, in fact there is a highly probable chance it is far less suitable. How/why? It is a matter of coefficient of friction (COF); most manufacturers design their clutches and transmission controllers to expect a very specific COF, if the ATF is too slippery, the clutches will not fully engage in the timeframe the controller is expecting, and it will cycle the clutches, over and over and over, causing accelerated wear, however, if the COF provides too much friction, the clutches will grab too quickly causing harsh shifts and a gradual acceleration in wear. Are you willing to bet the synthetic ATF you have in mind is a suitable replacement for DW-1? I sure as heck am not.
Agree with what you say, but the DW-1 is certainly a different animal than the original Z1.
Agree with what you say, but the DW-1 is certainly a different animal than the original Z1.
Yes, but they were both engineered to virtually the same COF, this is not unprecedented either, many manufacturers have evolved their ATF specification as better base oils have become available. Case in point, Chrysler did the same thing with the ATF+3 to ATV+4 migration back in the very early 2000s; both ATFs used the exact same COF, however, with the improved base oils, ATF+4 was able to retain the same frictional properties beyond 100,000 miles while ATF+3 needed a 30,000 mile refresh because it was pretty much exhausted by then.
Here's a good writeup on the ATF+3 to ATF+4 change:
Here's the thing about ATF, let's say for the sake of argument a different ATF has a superior oil compared to DW-1, that in no way means the different ATF is better in a Honda transmission, in fact there is a highly probable chance it is far less suitable. How/why? It is a matter of coefficient of friction (COF); most manufacturers design their clutches and transmission controllers to expect a very specific COF, if the ATF is too slippery, the clutches will not fully engage in the timeframe the controller is expecting, and it will cycle the clutches, over and over and over, causing accelerated wear, however, if the COF provides too much friction, the clutches will grab too quickly causing harsh shifts and a gradual acceleration in wear. Are you willing to bet the synthetic ATF you have in mind is a suitable replacement for DW-1? I sure as heck am not.
Fair point, that makes a lot of sense. I ordered up a bulk pack of DW-1 on Amazon, and the rest of the parts get in next week. We'll see how things go next weekend.
If the power steering fluid looks fine I'll leave it, else I'll have a shop take care of that.
While you are working on it, just go buy a cheap turkey baster and suck the majority of the reservoir dry and refill it. It isn't a complete flush/replacement, but it replaces a portion of the fluid...similar to the transmission fluid swap.
While you are working on it, just go buy a cheap turkey baster and suck the majority of the reservoir dry and refill it. It isn't a complete flush/replacement, but it replaces a portion of the fluid...similar to the transmission fluid swap.
I supposed you could do that a couple times and you'd be replacing a solid percentage of the fluid.
Yep. It's so easy to do. Just do this once a week or so until the fluid you suck out becomes clearer. Honda PS is yellowish/clear. Chances are the fluid you suck out will be very dark.
Or if you really want, you can fill it, turn the wheel side to side 15-20 times to circulate the fluid, then repeat until it doesn't come out dark anymore.
Yes, but they were both engineered to virtually the same COF, this is not unprecedented either, many manufacturers have evolved their ATF specification as better base oils have become available. Case in point, Chrysler did the same thing with the ATF+3 to ATV+4 migration back in the very early 2000s; both ATFs used the exact same COF, however, with the improved base oils, ATF+4 was able to retain the same frictional properties beyond 100,000 miles while ATF+3 needed a 30,000 mile refresh because it was pretty much exhausted by then.
Here's a good writeup on the ATF+3 to ATF+4 change:
I am familiar with 7176, +3, +4, however from a technical standpoint?????????
Having said that, the DW1 and Z1 differ in viscosity at both 40C and 100C and that to me would indicate a difference in COF.
I am familiar with 7176, +3, +4, however from a technical standpoint?????????
Having said that, the DW1 and Z1 differ in viscosity at both 40C and 100C and that to me would indicate a difference in COF.
No, viscosity has very little to do with COF, that's the job of the friction modifiers in the formula.
No, viscosity has very little to do with COF, that's the job of the friction modifiers in the formula.
Out of my league, but in the following papers "From this information a general discussion is presented which shows that the static and dynamic coefficients of clutch friction can be altered by changing the fluid composition".
Now, am I correct in assuming that fluid composition isn't necessarily viscosity, but blend of additives?
From my readings looks like the DW1 has less friction modifiers than the Z1 to correct the "build up" on clutches.
Dunno...I'm getting a headache.
My only question is, why would someone say to only bleed the 2nd bleeder valve if Honda designed it with 2? That 2nd valve has to be on there for a reason. I would do both if you were going to go through the process of bleeding the brakes at all.
by the way, when I bled my brakes for the first time a few weeks ago, there was zero air in the lines. no bubbles. That is 1 reason why people bleed brakes. But I didn't think I had any air in the lines, because if I did there would have to be a leak somewhere. There is no other way for air to get in unless fluid runs low. And I have no leaks of any kind. But then again, brake fluid shouldn't run low unless there is a leak.
Hey, by the way, computers, and stress, and intense computer work at a job (or stressing a point online) can give you a headache. especially if you don't exactly get along with your boss. haha At some point it just gets old, and you have to stop.
My only question is, why would someone say to only bleed the 2nd bleeder valve if Honda designed it with 2? That 2nd valve has to be on there for a reason. I would do both if you were going to go through the process of bleeding the brakes at all.
by the way, when I bled my brakes for the first time a few weeks ago, there was zero air in the lines. no bubbles. That is 1 reason why people bleed brakes. But I didn't think I had any air in the lines, because if I did there would have to be a leak somewhere. There is no other way for air to get in unless fluid runs low. And I have no leaks of any kind. But then again, brake fluid shouldn't run low unless there is a leak.
Hey, by the way, computers, and stress, and intense computer work at a job (or stressing a point online) can give you a headache. especially if you don't exactly get along with your boss. haha At some point it just gets old, and you have to stop.
A few comments:
The reason why the Brembo brake calipers (2004-2006 6MT and 2007-2008 Type-S only) is an issue is because they have two bleeder valves per caliper; nobody is saying to only bleed from one side, what we're saying is, don't think by bleeding one side you've finished the job, you must bleed both sides.
The reason for bleeding the brake calipers/lines is two-fold, the first is to make sure there is no air in the lines, the second is to bleed out all of the old brake fluid.
Why bleed out old fluid? Brake fluid is hygroscopic meaning it absorbs water. Don't ask me how water gets into the system, but trust me, it does. Given water is heavier than brake fluid, it sinks to the bottom of the system; unfortunately, the bottom of the system is where things get the hottest, and brake fluid diluted with water tends to boil at a MUCH lower temperature than fresh fluid. If you remember back to high school physics class, liquids are not compressible, however, gases are, and a boiled brake fluid water mixture will result in serious brake fade and loss of braking power.
If your brakes are boiling your in trouble! haha Brake fluid has no source to make it very hot, other than climate. But water is not that compressible. I would stick to the other points as good reason to bleed brakes. haha
Google:
The low compressibility of water means that even in the deep oceans at 4 km depth, where pressures are 40 MPa, there is only a 1.8% decrease in volume.
If your brakes are boiling your in trouble! haha Brake fluid has no source to make it very hot, other than climate. But water is not that compressible. I would stick to the other points as good reason to bleed brakes. haha
Google:
The low compressibility of water means that even in the deep oceans at 4 km depth, where pressures are 40 MPa, there is only a 1.8% decrease in volume.
Ummm, are you serious? Trust me, brake fluid gets REALLY HOT with intense braking. Don't believe me? Cool, go for a fast mountain drive where you're using your brakes a lot, stop the car, hop out and touch the brake calipers. Here's a hint; brake calipers contain a fair amount of brake fluid, they can easily reach several hundred degrees, and you will seriously burn your hand.
The brake caliper and brake fluid are not the same thing. The rotor and pad gets massively hot. But the rubber hydraulic brake hose should not be very hot. Plus that fluid moves around and cools. Either way, there is not enough water in the caliper, where it gets hot, to amount to any loss of braking power. So I doubt your brakes are going to boil even if some water vapor has come in over a decade. That said, all fluid break down over time and have to be replaced sooner or later. So, there you go.
You are missing the point. There is plenty of fluid on the caliper side of the equation. Yes, you are correct that the majority of the brake fluid outside of the caliper will never boil...but the fluid within the caliper itself just might.
And you and your theory about the fluid moving around and exchanging itself...it just doesn't happen past the ABS module for the most part.
The brake caliper and brake fluid are not the same thing. The rotor and pad gets massively hot. But the rubber hydraulic brake hose should not be very hot. Plus that fluid moves around and cools. Either way, there is not enough water in the caliper, where it gets hot, to amount to any loss of braking power. So I doubt your brakes are going to boil even if some water vapor has come in over a decade. That said, all fluid break down over time and have to be replaced sooner or later. So, there you go.
Nope, sorry, it doesn't work that way. Personally I don't care if you don't understand/don't believe how the process works; the fact is, the fluid in and near the brake caliper can easily exceed 300°F if you push your brakes hard enough.
Brake fluid moves around enough to get the reservoir dirty. That all anyone knows for sure because of evidence.
Dot3 brake fluid boils at 400 degrees and over a long period of time at can reduce to 284 degress F if moisture gets in.
But if you use dot 5, it is raise to 500 to 356 degrees F.
All Fluids brake down over time with or without moisture.
If the brake fluid was super hot. then the rubber hose would be super hot. But I know it is not as hot as the radiator hoses. And the water temp normally between 195-220 and you would not touch that .. but I can touch rubber brake hoses.. So the temp is likely less on the brake lines.
I think you are going to be OK.
I'm not losing any sleep. haha
Brake fluid moves around enough to get the reservoir dirty. That all anyone knows for sure because of evidence.
Dot3 brake fluid boils at 400 degrees and over a long period of time at can reduce to 284 degress F if moisture gets in.
But if you use dot 5, it is raise to 500 to 356 degrees F.
I think you are going to be OK.
I'm not losing any sleep. haha
Clearly you do not understand the process. As for using Dot 5, if you opt to go that way you will contaminate your braking system; Dot 3 and Dot 4 are interchangeable, Dot 5 is not.
I don't use DOT X. I use only the best for Acura. Had ya fooled didn't I. haha All I have to do is feed you just a little and off you go on the bunny rabbit trail.
wrong picture. Here is the brake fluid and other Acura fluids I use. And I just noticed It says Dot3 on it. So maybe I do use Dot3. Its a miracle! And even on Easter too.
That's acurazine for the past 10 years. People change the subject to try and prove they are right about something. So the conversation morphs into something totally different.. Just so they can be right about something and put other down so they feel better about themselves. For example, I never said to use Dot5. I only used that as an example for temperature differences.. So, they morphed it into "im stupid and know nothing". The problem is, they have to feel good about themselves and try to put other people under the bus. And I agree. It's quite stupid. 10 years! Been watching people argue and morph the subject into something totally irrelevant to the OP. But I will keep it up too as long as they do. BTW, i'm on other sites like BMW and Corvette. Only Acurazine displays the level of stupidity that is continually here.
That's acurazine for the past 10 years. People change the subject to try and prove they are right about something. So the conversation morphs into something totally different.. Just so they can be right about something and put other down so they feel better about themselves. For example, I never said to use Dot5. I only used that as an example for temperature differences.. So, they morphed it into "im stupid and know nothing". The problem is, they have to feel good about themselves and try to put other people under the bus. And I agree. It's quite stupid. 10 years! Been watching people argue and morph the subject into something totally irrelevant to the OP. But I will keep it up too as long as they do. BTW, i'm on other sites like BMW and Corvette. Only Acurazine displays the level of stupidity that is continually here.
Ummm, lest you forget (or try unsuccessfully to deflect)...
Originally Posted by Chad05TL
If your brakes are boiling your in trouble! haha Brake fluid has no source to make it very hot, other than climate.
03-29-2018, 03:17 PM
