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What features do you want in the next RLX?

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Old 08-12-2017, 08:17 AM   #41
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I agree. But current SHAWD is designed to hide limitations of FWD platform. If it was designed with rear wheel bias like other vehicles in the segment, it will not have that limitation.
You refer to FWD having a limitation compared to RWD, and I am not sure what you mean.

FWD is inherently more efficient than RWD.
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:19 AM   #42
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the weight difference from mechanical AWD to hybrid AWD is not 400-500 lbs! Its more like a 150 lb diff.
The hybrid AWD is superior. Torque vectoring in the mechanical system can only be applied during acceleration. Not so with the Hybrid.
A Honda executive told a friend who is a reviewer that conventional, mechanical SH-AWD was a technological dead end as far as Honda was concerned.

He told him that two model years ago.
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:20 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by MSZ View Post
A longitudinal platform + twin turbo V6 + mechanical SH-AWD.

The long platform ALONE would solve a lot of design issues(longer hood so the cockpit has to be pushed to a more backward position) and the overall weight distribution is greatly improved.
Why would you want to go through that huge, costly redesign when you can achieve the same "feel" and better handling overall, plus huge cost savings, with the Sport Hybrid system?

You'd also get much better efficiency.

I think those days are gone.

The future is Sport Hybrid, and all electric vehicles. :-)
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:52 AM   #44
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Why would you want to go through that huge, costly redesign when you can achieve the same "feel" and better handling overall, plus huge cost savings, with the Sport Hybrid system?

You'd also get much better efficiency.

I think those days are gone.

The future is Sport Hybrid, and all electric vehicles. :-)
Because potential buyers have not warmed up to sport hybrids so far based on sales volume. That is why Acura will be forced to add NSX variant without batteries.
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:55 AM   #45
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Because potential buyers have not warmed up to sport hybrids so far based on sales volume. That is why Acura will be forced to add NSX variant without batteries.
?

It has nothing to do with potential buyers.

We're not giving people enough Sport Hybrids in volumes high enough to gauge whether they want them.

The KC2 can be measured in the hundreds of cars that were delivered in the 2014, 2016 and 2017 model years.

Likewise, the NSX Sport Hybrid and MDX Sport Hybrid are very limited production.

The sales volumes do not point to the proclivities of purchasers.

In this case the surveys of old Honda buyers and the polling results tell us more than sales numbers.
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:57 AM   #46
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Let me take it a step further and say that the very idea of redesigning the platform for a longitudinal motor and ICE-only propulsion could be labelled socially irresponsible, and it's certainly against corporate policy.

The Cosworth motor in the NSX Sport Hybrid cannot be used in a new Legend. You'd have to come up with something else, something that Honda could build on its own.

Honda has chosen its direction.
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Old 08-12-2017, 09:01 AM   #47
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Why would you want to go through that huge, costly redesign when you can achieve the same "feel" and better handling overall, plus huge cost savings, with the Sport Hybrid system?

You'd also get much better efficiency.

I think those days are gone.

The future is Sport Hybrid, and all electric vehicles. :-)
Efficiency sells Toyota Prius not luxury cars. Honda spent the wrong money into something(hybirds)that nobody buys. Luxury car segment is all about excessive, and Acura offers none of it save for the NSX. Potential buyers in this segment want to brag about their cars' look and performance. If you look at the sales numbers for the past decade or so, Acura sedans have not been doing good in those areas. A huge, costly complete overhaul and redeveloping of the Acura sedans is exactly what Honda needs to do right now, and no the sport hybird is not the answer.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:35 AM   #48
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I agree with George. I already posted that mechanical AWD is dead - for Honda and soon for everyone else.
Volvo is already all in for Hybrid and EV. BMW and MB will soon follow. The standards in Europe will dictate this. In China there are huge incentives to by EVs
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Old 08-12-2017, 12:07 PM   #49
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It is likely that those who are don't support Acura's decision to promote the Sport Hybrid SHAWD as its future AWD system have likely never driven a Sport Hybrid and don't understand the advantages it offers. Here are a few of the reasons for the choice:

1. As I've said many times before, the weakness of Honda's VTEC engines has always been the lack of low end torque meaning their cars would be "sluggish" until the revs got up to where the VTEC could kick in and all that wonderful horsepower would finally be available. With the Sport Hybrid system, the electric motors supply instant torque to help get the car off the line until the VTEC kicks in. It is perfect synergy. The system is a PERFORMANCE HYBRID and nothing like the ECO Hybrid of a Prius. Extra performance is PERFECT for Honda's luxury brand - Acura.

2. Add to this perfect blend of power delivery the fact that you can apply torque vectoring via the rear wheels to vastly improve handling and do so even off throttle and under braking and the benefits over a conventional SHAWD system continue to become clear. Better handling is PERFECT for Honda's luxury brand - Acura

3. Now add VASTLY improved fuel economy in city driving as a nice bonus to the performance benefits. Mechanical AWD systems are less fuel efficient than Hybrid systems. Better fuel economy as a bonus to the better performance and handling is PERFECT for Honda's luxury brand - Acura

4. Now add the fact that the future for ICE only cars is coming to an end and it is likely that over the next few decades the ICE only vehicles will vanish from existence and anyone can see that Acura's choice of the Sport Hybrid variant of its SHAWD system was the only logical choice. Not wasting money on soon to be obsolete technology is the PERFECT choice for Honda's luxury brand - Acura.

The Sport Hybrid is still in its infancy and is only available in low-volumes as they perfect ways to streamline production and as they acquire reliable supplies of batteries and other components, but the lack of sales should NOT be interpreted as a weakness of the technology, but simply a function of limited production to prove the concept. Making that argument is like saying that Tesla is foolish for making electric cars because they only sell a few thousand of them while MILLIONS of ICE only cars are being sold. Current volume of sales as the sole determination for future planning does not begin to be logical if all future trends are ignored.

Just my two cents.

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Old 08-12-2017, 01:03 PM   #50
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Well said
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Old 08-12-2017, 01:08 PM   #51
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Which one of you guys is going to explain to Subaru that mechanical AWD is dead?
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Old 08-12-2017, 01:14 PM   #52
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Mechanical AWD is not dead...but it is not the best technology for the future as CAFE numbers get higher and higher and as more and more countries tighten restrictions on fossil fuels. I absolutely loved the SHAWD in my '05 RL, but the times, they are a changin' (Old fogey reference to Bob Dylan for those too young to get it).
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Old 08-12-2017, 01:27 PM   #53
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Subaru is way behind in the EV race. Its all they got. Clearly mechanical AWD will be around for a while depending on the manufacturer. However, once a specific model goes to a hybrid AWD, there's no going back.
I also had the RL AWD, but now have the MDX Hybrid. Although I liked the RL, the Hybrid AWD is clearly superior in driving characteristics
If you drive one, you can instantly tell
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Old 08-12-2017, 02:56 PM   #54
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...
4. Now add the fact that the future for ICE only cars is coming to an end and it is likely that over the next few decades the ICE only vehicles will vanish from existence and anyone can see that Acura's choice of the Sport Hybrid variant of its SHAWD system was the only logical choice. Not wasting money on soon to be obsolete technology is the PERFECT choice for Honda's luxury brand - Acura.
...
Well said overall, and this #4 is precisely why Honda/Acura will be in a comfortable position in the 2020's. The absolute *best* drivetrain for any kind of performance vehicle these days is a quad-motor EV running super-handling torque vectoring logic. I bet Acura has an NSX test mule with exactly that in it.

Only thing really holding back mass deployment of that config is battery technology, which will proliferate as soon as someone cracks the manufacturing techniques to mass-produce graphene-based batteries (a tenth the weight and size, plus fast charging).

Having driven an NSX on track, I am positive this was the absolute right call by Honda, that thing is a true super-car. I can't wait to drive one again, and to hopefully own one someday. In the meantime, and RLX-SH is a highly desirable car to me, and I'm smack in the middle of their target demographic, and live in a neighborhood with similar folks, many of whom also value the Acura mix of understated performance and reliability. The RLX-SH will be my last purchase of a vehicle with an ICE component in it, I fully expect to be EV-only for all future purchases.

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Old 08-12-2017, 03:01 PM   #55
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I'm in SF Bay area - amazing number of Tesla S and now X around. 2 of my neighbors have an S and there are at least 5 others in extended neighborhood within a mile of my house.
Besides our new MDX Hybrid, we have a BMW i3, so know well the EV driving experience, current pluses, and current limitations.
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Old 08-12-2017, 03:05 PM   #56
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Which one of you guys is going to explain to Subaru that mechanical AWD is dead?
As a subie fan (have a WRX and have owned several subies since 1995) I've actually written to Subaru over the years chiding them for the lack of hybrids.
While they currently partner with Toyota, what I really wish they'd do is license the Honda SH tech.

But yes, the contrast between the Subie AWD (or the Nissan GT-R I've driven) on track vs the NSX eSH makes it very clear that mechanical AWD is officially old-school and on its way out. I'll never buy another mechanical AWD vehicle.
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Old 08-12-2017, 03:57 PM   #57
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The absolute *best* drivetrain for any kind of performance vehicle these days is a quad-motor EV running super-handling torque vectoring logic. I bet Acura has an NSX test mule with exactly that in it.
I believe that Acura has already raced an all-electric NSX up Pike's Peak although I don't know if it offered front AND rear torque vectoring.

Again, just a rumor, but the future "super sedan" rumored to be positioned above the RLX is rumored to have quad motors with front and rear torque vectoring and fuel cell battery regeneration. Right now, this IS looking to be the drivetrain of the future, so Acura might as well start the beta testing soon. The current Sport Hybrid twin motor units are a great test bed to test and improve the technology and tweak the programming, so they should be ahead of the curve when the time comes.
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Old 08-12-2017, 04:19 PM   #58
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Current MDX sport hybrid can send upto 72hp to rear wheels (108 lb ft). Dont know how batteries will improve in next 2-3 years, but for a 400 hp 400 lb-ft performance sedan, limiting only 25% of power to rear wheels wont be sufficient. If this is the future and 4 EV vehicles are yet to come, they should atleast connect engine to rear axle and use batteries for front wheels. That will help front:rear weight balance as welll as rear wheel bias of the vehicle.
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Old 08-12-2017, 04:50 PM   #59
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the 72 hp was mated to the battery size available for space. Battery tech is incrementally improving and waiting for a leap frog advancement. With the incremental improvement, i3's gained 50% range with same volume battery size. So can easily up that 72 hp. I don't recall what the e-motors size are in the NSX.
I don't know why you keep wanting to run a drive shaft down the length of the car and then have to tie it into the e-motor torque vectoring gears back there. The e-motors in the rear assist with acceleration from stop as Hondamore eloquently described. If you had ~100hp out of 400 total to rear wheels, you would be fine. I'm sure it would out perform any ICE only 400 hp car. Probably out performs most of them now with only 72hp to rear
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Old 08-12-2017, 04:53 PM   #60
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I love the way the SH drives, and I think after 21,000 miles it is only missing a couple of things:

1. A Normal mode, in addition to the Eco - Sport mode.

2. The adaptive suspension from the 2017 Honda Type R, with the modes tuned specifically for the much bigger SH. Yes its that good!
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Old 08-12-2017, 05:01 PM   #61
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I also would like to thank JonFo for all the awesome insights in the NSX, in this and the other thread!

Unfortunately majority of people disregard how special of a super car the NSX is, just like they did (and continue to do) with the RLX-SH.

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Old 08-12-2017, 05:08 PM   #62
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Of course huge thanks to RLX-Sport Hybrid, and Getakey for giving us all their insights on the MDX-SH.....

Just another excellent implementation of this special drivetrain.......finally Acura figured out that a very good adaptive suspension is extremely important!
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Old 08-12-2017, 05:14 PM   #63
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Now if Acura can do something like they do with Audi or MB when you buy their flagship product.... regarding a special buying experience.
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Old 08-12-2017, 05:15 PM   #64
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It is likely that those who are don't support Acura's decision to promote the Sport Hybrid SHAWD as its future AWD system have likely never driven a Sport Hybrid and don't understand the advantages it offers. Here are a few of the reasons for the choice:

1. As I've said many times before, the weakness of Honda's VTEC engines has always been the lack of low end torque meaning their cars would be "sluggish" until the revs got up to where the VTEC could kick in and all that wonderful horsepower would finally be available. With the Sport Hybrid system, the electric motors supply instant torque to help get the car off the line until the VTEC kicks in. It is perfect synergy. The system is a PERFORMANCE HYBRID and nothing like the ECO Hybrid of a Prius. Extra performance is PERFECT for Honda's luxury brand - Acura.

2. Add to this perfect blend of power delivery the fact that you can apply torque vectoring via the rear wheels to vastly improve handling and do so even off throttle and under braking and the benefits over a conventional SHAWD system continue to become clear. Better handling is PERFECT for Honda's luxury brand - Acura

3. Now add VASTLY improved fuel economy in city driving as a nice bonus to the performance benefits. Mechanical AWD systems are less fuel efficient than Hybrid systems. Better fuel economy as a bonus to the better performance and handling is PERFECT for Honda's luxury brand - Acura

4. Now add the fact that the future for ICE only cars is coming to an end and it is likely that over the next few decades the ICE only vehicles will vanish from existence and anyone can see that Acura's choice of the Sport Hybrid variant of its SHAWD system was the only logical choice. Not wasting money on soon to be obsolete technology is the PERFECT choice for Honda's luxury brand - Acura.

The Sport Hybrid is still in its infancy and is only available in low-volumes as they perfect ways to streamline production and as they acquire reliable supplies of batteries and other components, but the lack of sales should NOT be interpreted as a weakness of the technology, but simply a function of limited production to prove the concept. Making that argument is like saying that Tesla is foolish for making electric cars because they only sell a few thousand of them while MILLIONS of ICE only cars are being sold. Current volume of sales as the sole determination for future planning does not begin to be logical if all future trends are ignored.

Just my two cents.
Excellent post Hondamore, thank you!
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Old 08-12-2017, 05:17 PM   #65
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Now if Acura can do something like they do with Audi or MB when you buy their flagship product.... regarding a special buying experience.
IMHO I don't think they care about that.......
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Old 08-12-2017, 09:37 PM   #66
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Standing and clapping at hondamore. Couldn't have stated things better.

eSH-AWD and all-electric are the future. The end. I think the next step is miniaturizing the system so there's less weight penalty for adding the system. Electric motors on all four wheels oughta do at least part of the trick.

I look forward to how Honda implements this process. This all started with the Honda Dualnote concept 17-18 years ago and is continuing along.

Go, Honda!
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Old 08-13-2017, 09:00 AM   #67
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I believe that Acura has already raced an all-electric NSX up Pike's Peak although I don't know if it offered front AND rear torque vectoring.
Ah yes, now I remember seeing the news that they would race a 4-motor EV. And it turns out it does have 4-way SH. But I don't think they actually ran it this year. Next Generation Acura NSX Could Go All-Electric - Motor Trend

NSX 4-motor EV - 2017


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Again, just a rumor, but the future "super sedan" rumored to be positioned above the RLX is rumored to have quad motors with front and rear torque vectoring and fuel cell battery regeneration. Right now, this IS looking to be the drivetrain of the future, so Acura might as well start the beta testing soon. The current Sport Hybrid twin motor units are a great test bed to test and improve the technology and tweak the programming, so they should be ahead of the curve when the time comes.
That super sedan sounds nice, probably will have a 'super' price as well.
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:34 PM   #68
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That super sedan sounds nice, probably will have a 'super' price as well.
Yup, If true, I think Acura will be attempting to add a bit of snob appeal AND green appeal ala Tesla to its new flagship sedan and take the price up accordingly. Hopefully they remain loyal to their Honda roots and keep it "reasonable".
Of course all of this is just wild speculation at this point, but the rumored technology seems to be "on trend".

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Old 08-17-2017, 06:27 PM   #69
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Did anybody see this article or similar and/or have any thoughts related to hybrid or electric vs. not for the current/future RLX? I would be happy with a very fast non hybrid having all of the other best features.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ell-Earth.html

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Old 08-19-2017, 12:27 PM   #70
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Did anybody see this article or similar and/or have any thoughts related to hybrid or electric vs. not for the current/future RLX? I would be happy with a very fast non hybrid having all of the other best features.

Child miners aged four at Congo cobalt mine | Daily Mail Online
This is a similar topic to many of the modern products we purchase. The raw materials and hand labor manufacturing for many of the things we want are done with a cost that is hidden. In the primitive remote places of the world where the resources are found, safe working conditions are absent. Many of these places are basically slave work camps, and people are willing to do it because they need money for food for them and their families. Just look at how ship breaking is done in India as an example. To say that we should ban these products as a result (for discussion purposes), is crazy because we are not the only consumers in the world. If knowing that a car or phone has components that can be traced back to someone working in horrid working conditions, then that particular consumer can make the choice not to buy that product on their own. Now if the product presented a public safety risk by using it, then that is where a ban could be reasonably instituted. Then again if you engage in a dangerous activity like parasailing, you have to sign a waiver stating loosely that you are knowingly engaging in an optional activity that could kill you and we are not responsible. Yes it is dangerous but the buyer can make the choice, not a governmental agency or sorts. Comments?
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