George Knighton

You refer to FWD having a limitation compared to RWD, and I am not sure what you mean.

FWD is inherently more efficient than RWD.

George Knighton

A Honda executive told a friend who is a reviewer that conventional, mechanical SH-AWD was a technological dead end as far as Honda was concerned.

He told him that two model years ago.

George Knighton

Why would you want to go through that huge, costly redesign when you can achieve the same "feel" and better handling overall, plus huge cost savings, with the Sport Hybrid system?

You'd also get much better efficiency.

I think those days are gone.

The future is Sport Hybrid, and all electric vehicles. :-)

alpha0

Because potential buyers have not warmed up to sport hybrids so far based on sales volume. That is why Acura will be forced to add NSX variant without batteries.

George Knighton

?

It has nothing to do with potential buyers.

We're not giving people enough Sport Hybrids in volumes high enough to gauge whether they want them.

The KC2 can be measured in the hundreds of cars that were delivered in the 2014, 2016 and 2017 model years.

Likewise, the NSX Sport Hybrid and MDX Sport Hybrid are very limited production.

The sales volumes do not point to the proclivities of purchasers.

In this case the surveys of old Honda buyers and the polling results tell us more than sales numbers.

George Knighton

Let me take it a step further and say that the very idea of redesigning the platform for a longitudinal motor and ICE-only propulsion could be labelled socially irresponsible, and it's certainly against corporate policy.

The Cosworth motor in the NSX Sport Hybrid cannot be used in a new Legend. You'd have to come up with something else, something that Honda could build on its own.

Honda has chosen its direction.

MSZ

Efficiency sells Toyota Prius not luxury cars. Honda spent the wrong money into something(hybirds)that nobody buys. Luxury car segment is all about excessive, and Acura offers none of it save for the NSX. Potential buyers in this segment want to brag about their cars' look and performance. If you look at the sales numbers for the past decade or so, Acura sedans have not been doing good in those areas. A huge, costly complete overhaul and redeveloping of the Acura sedans is exactly what Honda needs to do right now, and no the sport hybird is not the answer.

getakey

I agree with George. I already posted that mechanical AWD is dead - for Honda and soon for everyone else.
Volvo is already all in for Hybrid and EV. BMW and MB will soon follow. The standards in Europe will dictate this. In China there are huge incentives to by EVs

hondamore

It is likely that those who are don't support Acura's decision to promote the Sport Hybrid SHAWD as its future AWD system have likely never driven a Sport Hybrid and don't understand the advantages it offers. Here are a few of the reasons for the choice:

1. As I've said many times before, the weakness of Honda's VTEC engines has always been the lack of low end torque meaning their cars would be "sluggish" until the revs got up to where the VTEC could kick in and all that wonderful horsepower would finally be available. With the Sport Hybrid system, the electric motors supply instant torque to help get the car off the line until the VTEC kicks in. It is perfect synergy. The system is a PERFORMANCE HYBRID and nothing like the ECO Hybrid of a Prius. Extra performance is PERFECT for Honda's luxury brand - Acura.

2. Add to this perfect blend of power delivery the fact that you can apply torque vectoring via the rear wheels to vastly improve handling and do so even off throttle and under braking and the benefits over a conventional SHAWD system continue to become clear. Better handling is PERFECT for Honda's luxury brand - Acura

3. Now add VASTLY improved fuel economy in city driving as a nice bonus to the performance benefits. Mechanical AWD systems are less fuel efficient than Hybrid systems. Better fuel economy as a bonus to the better performance and handling is PERFECT for Honda's luxury brand - Acura

4. Now add the fact that the future for ICE only cars is coming to an end and it is likely that over the next few decades the ICE only vehicles will vanish from existence and anyone can see that Acura's choice of the Sport Hybrid variant of its SHAWD system was the only logical choice. Not wasting money on soon to be obsolete technology is the PERFECT choice for Honda's luxury brand - Acura.

The Sport Hybrid is still in its infancy and is only available in low-volumes as they perfect ways to streamline production and as they acquire reliable supplies of batteries and other components, but the lack of sales should NOT be interpreted as a weakness of the technology, but simply a function of limited production to prove the concept. Making that argument is like saying that Tesla is foolish for making electric cars because they only sell a few thousand of them while MILLIONS of ICE only cars are being sold. Current volume of sales as the sole determination for future planning does not begin to be logical if all future trends are ignored.

Just my two cents.

getakey

Well said

kurtatx

Which one of you guys is going to explain to Subaru that mechanical AWD is dead?

hondamore

Mechanical AWD is not dead...but it is not the best technology for the future as CAFE numbers get higher and higher and as more and more countries tighten restrictions on fossil fuels. I absolutely loved the SHAWD in my '05 RL, but the times, they are a changin' (Old fogey reference to Bob Dylan for those too young to get it).

getakey

Subaru is way behind in the EV race. Its all they got. Clearly mechanical AWD will be around for a while depending on the manufacturer. However, once a specific model goes to a hybrid AWD, there's no going back.
I also had the RL AWD, but now have the MDX Hybrid. Although I liked the RL, the Hybrid AWD is clearly superior in driving characteristics
If you drive one, you can instantly tell

JonFo

Well said overall, and this #4 is precisely why Honda/Acura will be in a comfortable position in the 2020's. The absolute *best* drivetrain for any kind of performance vehicle these days is a quad-motor EV running super-handling torque vectoring logic. I bet Acura has an NSX test mule with exactly that in it.

Only thing really holding back mass deployment of that config is battery technology, which will proliferate as soon as someone cracks the manufacturing techniques to mass-produce graphene-based batteries (a tenth the weight and size, plus fast charging).

Having driven an NSX on track, I am positive this was the absolute right call by Honda, that thing is a true super-car. I can't wait to drive one again, and to hopefully own one someday. In the meantime, and RLX-SH is a highly desirable car to me, and I'm smack in the middle of their target demographic, and live in a neighborhood with similar folks, many of whom also value the Acura mix of understated performance and reliability. The RLX-SH will be my last purchase of a vehicle with an ICE component in it, I fully expect to be EV-only for all future purchases.

getakey

I'm in SF Bay area - amazing number of Tesla S and now X around. 2 of my neighbors have an S and there are at least 5 others in extended neighborhood within a mile of my house.
Besides our new MDX Hybrid, we have a BMW i3, so know well the EV driving experience, current pluses, and current limitations.

JonFo

As a subie fan (have a WRX and have owned several subies since 1995) I've actually written to Subaru over the years chiding them for the lack of hybrids.
While they currently partner with Toyota, what I really wish they'd do is license the Honda SH tech.

But yes, the contrast between the Subie AWD (or the Nissan GT-R I've driven) on track vs the NSX eSH makes it very clear that mechanical AWD is officially old-school and on its way out. I'll never buy another mechanical AWD vehicle.

hondamore

I believe that Acura has already raced an all-electric NSX up Pike's Peak although I don't know if it offered front AND rear torque vectoring.

Again, just a rumor, but the future "super sedan" rumored to be positioned above the RLX is rumored to have quad motors with front and rear torque vectoring and fuel cell battery regeneration. Right now, this IS looking to be the drivetrain of the future, so Acura might as well start the beta testing soon. The current Sport Hybrid twin motor units are a great test bed to test and improve the technology and tweak the programming, so they should be ahead of the curve when the time comes.

alpha0

Current MDX sport hybrid can send upto 72hp to rear wheels (108 lb ft). Dont know how batteries will improve in next 2-3 years, but for a 400 hp 400 lb-ft performance sedan, limiting only 25% of power to rear wheels wont be sufficient. If this is the future and 4 EV vehicles are yet to come, they should atleast connect engine to rear axle and use batteries for front wheels. That will help front:rear weight balance as welll as rear wheel bias of the vehicle.

getakey

the 72 hp was mated to the battery size available for space. Battery tech is incrementally improving and waiting for a leap frog advancement. With the incremental improvement, i3's gained 50% range with same volume battery size. So can easily up that 72 hp. I don't recall what the e-motors size are in the NSX.
I don't know why you keep wanting to run a drive shaft down the length of the car and then have to tie it into the e-motor torque vectoring gears back there. The e-motors in the rear assist with acceleration from stop as Hondamore eloquently described. If you had ~100hp out of 400 total to rear wheels, you would be fine. I'm sure it would out perform any ICE only 400 hp car. Probably out performs most of them now with only 72hp to rear

pgeorg

I love the way the SH drives, and I think after 21,000 miles it is only missing a couple of things:

1. A Normal mode, in addition to the Eco - Sport mode.

2. The adaptive suspension from the 2017 Honda Type R, with the modes tuned specifically for the much bigger SH. Yes its that good!

pgeorg

I also would like to thank JonFo for all the awesome insights in the NSX, in this and the other thread!

Unfortunately majority of people disregard how special of a super car the NSX is, just like they did (and continue to do) with the RLX-SH.

pgeorg

Of course huge thanks to RLX-Sport Hybrid, and Getakey for giving us all their insights on the MDX-SH.....

Just another excellent implementation of this special drivetrain.......finally Acura figured out that a very good adaptive suspension is extremely important!

RLX-Sport Hybrid

Now if Acura can do something like they do with Audi or MB when you buy their flagship product.... regarding a special buying experience.

pgeorg

Excellent post Hondamore, thank you!

pgeorg

IMHO I don't think they care about that.......

neuronbob

Standing and clapping at hondamore. Couldn't have stated things better.

eSH-AWD and all-electric are the future. The end. I think the next step is miniaturizing the system so there's less weight penalty for adding the system. Electric motors on all four wheels oughta do at least part of the trick.

I look forward to how Honda implements this process. This all started with the Honda Dualnote concept 17-18 years ago and is continuing along.

Go, Honda!

JonFo

Ah yes, now I remember seeing the news that they would race a 4-motor EV. And it turns out it does have 4-way SH. But I don't think they actually ran it this year. Next Generation Acura NSX Could Go All-Electric - Motor Trend

NSX 4-motor EV - 2017


That super sedan sounds nice, probably will have a 'super' price as well.

hondamore

Yup, If true, I think Acura will be attempting to add a bit of snob appeal AND green appeal ala Tesla to its new flagship sedan and take the price up accordingly. Hopefully they remain loyal to their Honda roots and keep it "reasonable".
Of course all of this is just wild speculation at this point, but the rumored technology seems to be "on trend".

flagship

Did anybody see this article or similar and/or have any thoughts related to hybrid or electric vs. not for the current/future RLX? I would be happy with a very fast non hybrid having all of the other best features.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ell-Earth.html

RLX-Sport Hybrid

This is a similar topic to many of the modern products we purchase. The raw materials and hand labor manufacturing for many of the things we want are done with a cost that is hidden. In the primitive remote places of the world where the resources are found, safe working conditions are absent. Many of these places are basically slave work camps, and people are willing to do it because they need money for food for them and their families. Just look at how ship breaking is done in India as an example. To say that we should ban these products as a result (for discussion purposes), is crazy because we are not the only consumers in the world. If knowing that a car or phone has components that can be traced back to someone working in horrid working conditions, then that particular consumer can make the choice not to buy that product on their own. Now if the product presented a public safety risk by using it, then that is where a ban could be reasonably instituted. Then again if you engage in a dangerous activity like parasailing, you have to sign a waiver stating loosely that you are knowingly engaging in an optional activity that could kill you and we are not responsible. Yes it is dangerous but the buyer can make the choice, not a governmental agency or sorts. Comments?

romrunning

Here are things that I would like for my next RLX SH:

1) 4 electric motor assists - 1 on each wheel
2) Bigger battery - I would love to go electric-only for longer distances or be able to stay in electric-only without feathering the pedal too much; also, stay in electric-only even with mild-to-moderate acceleration input
3) Better infotainment, as many have said already - things like CarPlay, better XM song info/graphics, easier file mgmt for stored music
4) Much higher resolution cameras all around
5) Rear cross-traffic alert with automatic braking - it has the alert, just need the braking
6) Bigger seat bolsters for better stability in the curves - which I think the '18 has. Also, more thigh support on the seat.
7) Better blind-spot monitoring - right now it seems to be tied to the angle of your side mirror. My old habit is to always angle my mirror out wide to cover virtually the whole blindspot; however, then the BSM is too far out & doesn't trigger until the car is almost half-way up my car length. I'd rather have a fixed angle so that I can tell when they really are in my blindspot, and when I can still safely cross into the next lane in case of emergency maneuvering.
8) Tighter turning radius
9) Navigation - map database updates by Internet or plugging up a laptop; also - free! (I can dream, right?!) Of course, much better graphics
10) Options for ALL colored exterior parts/trim to be body-colored - still disappointing that the button locks are colored black on my white car, really looks out of place; also, why aren't those locks capacitive-sensing instead of push-buttons?
11) Self-parking - point it where to park (parallel or otherwise), and it parks itself!

For me, horsepower is fine; I don't think I need a turbo-6. I think the 4 motors would add more power in Sport mode & better regen capability in electric mode. I'm also okay with the styling; looks beautiful right now. If they tweak it a bit, that should be alright.

hondamore

The 2G RL had capacitive touch sensors for the door handle "buttons" of the keyless entry system and it caused Acura a lot of headaches/ warranty repairs. Dirt, wax, water etc would cause the capacitive touch sensor to malfunction and there were a lot of RL owners (not me thankfully) who had to have their door handles replaced. While I 'm sure that a newer, more robust (compared to the one used on the RL) capacitive touch sensor is now available, Acura is likely gun shy to try it and chose to go with the old, tried and true push button that they KNOW will work.

I agree that a color match of the button would look better, but I assume that painting or coloring the rubber push button to match a metallic, specialty paint would be difficult/impossible and might end up looking like a bad flaw in the door handle's paint.. There is also the issue of durability as the rubber flexes when depressed and over time the color would likely degrade and look worse than the generic black button.

Just my two cents.

romrunning

Yeah, I remember my old RL had it; it was new tech then & right in line with the high-tech image Acura wanted to show.

In regards to the ugly black rubber button, then why not make the cap metal instead of rubber? Then you can color-match the paint, and it's durable.

Philisophe

https://www.acura.com/future-vehicles