holografique

I completely agree, but I think its a more complex problem to be solved with just a single move kike that.

First: if they "axe" the RLX PAWS and make it an SH "exotic" only, then they create a gap in having something to compete with the 5-series, E-Class, GS, A6, Q70, K900, and Equus from a cost standpoint. Most if not all of those models have non-AWD variants that start at fairly attractive price points, which make up the majority of the ones you see on the road. The SH pricepoint is hard for non Acura nuts like us to justify because of the lack of brand cachet.

Second: the RLX SH would be a great contender as the "real" flagship in the sedan lineup. Problem is Acura is having to dig the "image" and "reputation" of the RLX out of a deep dark hole because of the PAWS failure. So no one hardly knows (or cares) about the SH, hence no real contender for that space in the lineup (back to the first problem).

Third: the real fix is coming out with the 4th gen RLX, which has the right styling, the right price, and the right features. But they arent ready for that yet, so now the lineup has to sit and wait for the next 2 years with a miserable PAWS product, an impossible to find "unicorn" (the SH), all leading to a pretty nasty mess. Hence the sales numbers that continue to dwindle.

IMO, the only option Acura has is to wait it out until they have the 4th gen ready. And in the 4th gen, the two most important things that they need to save the RLX is:

1. more attractive and exciting styling, tempered with design minimalism. (dont get all 4G TL crazy on us)

2. absolute impeccable ride suspension and product qualtiy control. The 2014 PAWS disaster is flat out shameful and should never have happened for the price that vehicle commanded. Especially after the reputation they have built for themselves for the last 20 years across the rest of their lineup. The RLX was not Acura's first car and Acura is not some new car company. They have 20 years of experience, insight, and process to rely on. So I dont buy the whole "its a 1st gen new product". Its just piss poor product and quality managment.

Honestly the PAWS system itself is great, and I dont think they need to drop that drivetrain option (otherwise a SH-AWD option only prices the RLX to high against its competitors in the same class). When my RLX isnt stumbling over itself because of the suspension, its a great car to drive and I love the PAWS system. Unfortunately no one cared enough ibecause of everything else being such a mess.

wstr75

I have a 2014 PAWS with 32K miles. I bought it at 15K miles and it has been a great car. Yes, it has a sometimes jouncy ride, but it is not a deal breaker for me and my bride. My feeling my 2014 RLX is close to being A+ in all categories except for suspension and it is B+ there. Acura has surely logged-in all of the PAWS suspension complaints and, with the corporate pride Honda has perpetually demonstrated over the years in their product engineering be it lawnmowers or automobiles, my guess is there are engineering and field testing efforts devoted to improving the RLX PAWS suspension. Manufacturers cannot snap their fingers and instantly make improvements. It takes time and it sounds like the 2016 PAWS suspension component improvements are a big step forward. I am waiting to hear how these forthcoming changes will fare in our earlier PAWS vehicles. In the meantime, I am loving the 32 to 34 mpg highway fuel economy and wonderful luxury of my 2014 PAWS RLX. Yes, I am an unabashed RLX PAWS homey.

neuronbob

As competent as the PAWS RLX is, particularly the 2016, the sales numbers are just an ongoing train wreck. You just can't keep your eyes off it...

How long can Acura keep the RLX in general on the market given abysmal sales? Most other automakers would have already put the RLX out of its misery and cancelled it.

Acura can easily continue Sport Hybrid sales as a boutique, high-priced, halo sedan car affordable by few, just like it is, and as stated above.

getakey

the biggest botch was releasing PAWS before SH
I think sales would be completely different if it had been released that way.

holografique

Im not saying they need to snap their fingers and bam, all fixed.

I'm saying that as a car company with 20+ years of experience, insight, and processes in place to build "cars", some of the issues with the PAWS vehicle should never have slipt past QA/QC.

It's a flagship, it cost $60k+. Yet we get noisey AC system? Horrendously slow NAV system? Several recalls (one of which was severely life threatening, the lose bolt recall)? Poor homelink transmitter placement? Do we need to recount the (still growning) list of TSB's for the 2014 model? I wont even bring up the suspension...

We're not talking about vehicles powered by flux capacitors. We're talking about things they've been doing for over a decade now and its like no one tested the damn vehicle before it was released to the market. And if they did, then they did a piss poor job of overseeing the process and/or a complete lack of checks and balances before giving the car the "Acura Seal of Approval". Wait...does such a thing even exist? After owning my RLX, I'd say no it doesnt.

getakey

Although I like my PAWS RLX, I have to agree on the NAV slowness and the suspension
Should have never made it into production

Malibu Flyer

I completely agree......Acura is guilty of unacceptable quality control.

I fault them most for the suspension because that is Mechancial engineering which used to be one of the strengths of Honda/Acura.

The infotainment system is another issue that is syphtomatic of a weakness shared by many car manufactures. Simply put there is a need to technological expertise that most companies have been forced to outsource to suppliers since they don't have that expertise in house. These days cars are fast becoming a bunch of computers, silicon chips and software that have four tires and a steering wheel. While it is still the fault of quality control to allow technological problem show up in the final product, I think Acura is no different that other manufactures in being behind the curve in the technology department.

getakey

^ I used to think Acura was way ahead of BMW in the NAV/infotainment, but now they are not. I have a 2014 RLX adn 2014 i3. NAV on the i3 is heads and tails above.

Sad to me

neuronbob

Agree on the infotainment. I'd be happy if Acura finally released a software update for the 2014s that equalled the 2016s.

That they haven't indicates they have no obvious plan to do so. Most likely, there's been a hardware change and changes are not compatible with the older hardware in the 2014s.

Too bad! They hit it with the hybrid drivetrain and interior otherwise.

TampaRLX-SH

Some of us have been waiting for that magic to occur for the last 15+ years. Although I loved my RL (and my SH RLX moreso) I understand much of the market criticisms that have weighed on their success.

I simply fear I will not live long enough for the 'next try' to get it right.

TampaRLX-SH

What we do not know is how many LEGENDs (all SH) are being sold outside of North America. Nor do we know how many RLX PAWS are being sold outside of North America. Looking at just the sales of the 2 cars in NA is myopic and Honda / Acura may be looking at these cars from the global perspective.

I agree with holografique, no matter how good the Sport Hybrid is, the PAWS launch and early build issues will likely prevent this car from obtaining the respect and recognition it deserves.

neuronbob

^^^^
Fair points.

holografique

^^^^ 1+

Didn't even think about global sales. Would be VERY interesting to see how its doing in other markets. My gut says that since there was no PAWS equivalent under the Honda brand for the APAC markets, its doing much better over there than here in US.

TampaRLX-SH

The Global market can really skew things as the consumer base has very different needs and desires. The PAWS RLX is sold in China (not the Sport Hybrid, nor the LEGEND).

But the #1 luxury brand in China is Buick. And the flagship is the LaCrosse a large FWD sedan. The Chinese (and many Asian cultures) base a luxury car with back seat room as a priority. So luxury equates to limo. Power, driver features and even drive train are lower priorities. Most Chinese executives have minivans as limos.

Here are the sales for the Lacross in China....amazing!


LaCrosse sales approx 90,000 units per year!

2015 / 2014 / 2013

January 9.271 9.140 11.672
February 5.879 5.297 7.026
March 7.134 6.911 9.128
April 6.279 5.494 6.648
May 5.874 4.921 6.409
June 7.133 5.640 6.526
July 6.655 5.424 2.891
August 9.188 7.188
September 9.797 7.878
October 7.784 8.593
November 8.770 8.647
December 5.515 8.725

According to this article, Acura only sold about 4,900 units of all models in China.

"Last year Acura sold only a few thousand cars while Lexus sold nearly 50.000 and Infiniti some 20.000."

Spy Shots: Acura RLX testing in China | CarNewsChina.com - China Auto News

holografique

Wow. Lacross? Who woulda thunk...

Well so much for the RLX doing well across seas. Looks even more dissmal over there.

Interesting though in that spyshot of the RLX in China, I noticed they still put the "Acura" name as a badge on the rear of the vehicle, where here in the states they stopped doing that. My guess is they feel they've built enough brand recognition here in the US whereby people recognize the logo alone, versus across seas they are still building the brand name...?

TampaRLX-SH

In North America... Audi, BMW & Mercedes don't....so Acura follows suit. One one hand Acura claims it is a 'different kind of luxury' on the other hand they mimic the brands they want to differentiate from?

In China, they try to represent Acura as an American brand to disassociate it from Honda, so yes they need to get the brand recognition.

R. White

I wouldn't be surprised if Acura dropped the RLX after the 2016. There is not a 2016 currently at any dealer within 50 miles. There two 2014s available though.

TSX69

RLX SH-SH-AWD 34
Infiniti Q70 hybrid 13 +18.2%
Lexus GS 450h 4 -63.6%
Mercedes E400h 2 -71.4%
BMW 535ih 0 -100%

I suspect that the RLX will soldier on for years with very low inventory, just as the last RL did. I jsut hope that it does not go on for ~9 years again.

As for brand recognition, it would be nice if they sold the NSX everywhere as an Acura (even if they have to sell it as a special order thru their Honda dealerships). This would at least get their name out there in case they want to expand, plus not lower the Acura/NSX brand.

hondamore

Headline...Acura's wonderful new Sport Hybrid RLX is by far the sales leader in it's category outselling the COMBINED sales of ALL of its competition by a nearly two to one margin. BMW, Mercedes, Lexus and Infiniti are simply no match for Acura's flagship sedan.

thomask

They should learn from hyundai. That's how you create and sell a bargain imho.

holografique

We should be clear in comparing the RLX PAWS versus the RLX SH-AWD. The issues and speculations around dropping the "RLX" are more focused on the PAWS version.

I'm sure if you look at the sales numbers for the PAWS version versus the regular non-hybrid variants of all of the cars you listed above, the RLX will be lagging behind severely. I don't have to look at sales numbers to tell you I see way more E-class, GS, and 5-series driving around than any RLX PAWS. The Q70 is just now starting to show up every once in awhile on the roads. But gain, all non-hybrid variants.

holografique

Ha! Exactly

holografique

Good lord, just more proof of what a confused company Acura/Honda is...

Edward'TLS

The RLX will soldier on for years and years, until Honda can figure out another attempt to launch another (hope-to-be) successful Acura flagship sedan.

neuronbob

Ye gods, I hope not. It strikes me that would be a terrible business decision, but then again, I don't know Acura's business internals.

jwong77

Wouldn't surprise me considering what happened to the last two generations of RL's.

wstr75

I visited two Acura dealerships this week and there was not one RLX seen. There were zillions of ILXs, TLXs, MDXs and RDXs, but not one RLX. North Carolina is the 9th most populous state and the dealerships were in Greensboro (the state's 3rd largest population area) and Cary/Raleigh/Durham (the state's 2nd largest population area). It is no wonder RLX sales are so low. Imagine trying to sell someone a car without a test drive.

neuronbob

That's what I'm afraid of. However.....

My local dealer now has a 2016 Sport Hybrid and two PAWS RLXs. However, I think they are the exception.

PAWS RLXs don't sell. Most dealers likely don't want them gathering dust on their lots.
Acura won't supply more Sport Hybrids, so few/none on the lots.

Honestly, RLX is as good as dead, and we are all just awaiting the official announcement from Acura, or at least I am. I sure won't be surprised when it comes.

fsmith

My dealer, Acura of Boston, has a gray/ebony 2016 Sport Hybrid in their showroom.

TSX69

I just looked @ my local dealership & they have a 2016 SH-AWD Advance on the lot. Granted, it is 14 months too late ...

Luckily, it has the seacoast interior so I am not tempted. I do have to go get my bluetooth issue fixed so perhaps I will finally take a test drive then.

The other 6 dealerships in my state still do not have 1 ...

Malibu Flyer

Be careful taking a test drive. It has been known to be hazardous to your wallet, seacoast interior or not. Your could be stronger than many of the rest of us but still thought posting a warning might be needed.

George Knighton

If it helps any, I've got used to the seacoast interior.

I didn't think I'd like it, but I got used to it quickly, and it's not the least bit dirty.

And I am not a big cleaner and polisher.

I let the dealership do their protectant/preservative show, and it seems to work well. Everything just wipes off.

There is zero indigo transfer.

neuronbob

Wow, my last post was so gloomy.

The other dealer in my area has a 2016 Graphite Luster Metallic Sport Hybrid Advance with Ebony interior. Just like I'd have ordered it from the factory, had I been able to do so.

I may go look at it, just to check out the 360 degree camera views. My lease is still too new to consider a swap, but I'd love to see the new tech and do a comparo of the infotainment system.

TampaRLX-SH

I would like to hear your assessment of the suspension between to the two. You have side by side ability whereas I was relying on an 18 month gap between my first SH experience and my delivered SH. You may better confirm the suspension is the same for the SH.

But remember, you drive it, you buy it.

TSX69

Trucks Drive Numerous American Honda September Sales Records

Oct 1, 2015 - TORRANCE, Calif.

Total American Honda sales rise 13.1 percent on sales of 133,750 for a new September record
Overall American Honda truck sales also set a new September mark, increasing 26.9 percent on sales of 63,635
Honda brand sets new September record, rising 14 percent on sales of 119,046
Honda trucks also have best September, up 31.9 percent with 55,474 units sold
Acura trucks have best-ever September, gaining 0.8 percent on sales of 8,161 vehicles
Acura RDX records best September sales, rising 19.1 percent on sales of 3,848 units

American Honda Motor Co., Inc. today reported a robust 13.1 percent September 2015 sales increase on total sales of 133,750 Honda and Acura vehicles for a new September benchmark. Honda Division sales totaled 119,046, up 14 percent for a new September record, with car sales reaching 63,572 for a 2 percent gain and truck sales rising 31.9 percent on sales of 55,474 for another September record. Acura reported 14,704 vehicle sales for a solid 6.3 percent gain, with cars capturing 6,543 sales (up 14.1 percent) and trucks setting a new September record, reaching 8,161 sales (up 0.8 percent).

Honda
Honda cars and trucks made solid sales gains in September, with double digit increases from Civic, CR-V, Pilot and Odyssey, while Accord also gained in a market that continues to lean heavily to light trucks. With Pilot leading monthly gains, total Honda truck sales were up across the entire lineup, gaining 31.9 percent on sales of 55,474 for a new September record.

Civic had a strong September with sales topping 28,000 for a 27 percent increase.
The all-new Pilot jumped out to a great start with September sales of 10,238, up 30.9 percent for the month. Pilot was joined by Odyssey, with sales of 9,924 units to bump it 13.2 percent in September.
CR-V set yet another monthly sales record, rising 26.1 percent on sales of 29,925 units, continuing on pace to maintain its position as America's best-selling SUV.

"The success of our new truck introductions has given us great momentum heading into fall," said Jeff Conrad, Honda Division senior vice president and general manager. "Now we see the freshened Accord and all-new Civic sedan propelling us into 2016 as we continue to bolster our lineup with exciting new products throughout the year."

Acura
Acura cars continued strong momentum in a light truck-dominated market with TLX easily surpassing the 4,500-unit mark, while ILX enjoyed a double-digit increase for the month. RDX also gained sharply in a hotly competitive market segment, setting a new September record to boost total Acura truck sales into record territory. Overall, Acura sales were up 6.3 percent.

RDX sales shot up 19.1 percent on sales of 3,848 in September to help Acura trucks to a 0.8 percent increase.
MDX posted a strong month with sales of 4,313 for the month, despite supply constraints.
Anchored by the TLX, Acura cars gained 14.1 percent on sales of 6,543 for the month:
TLX sales totaled 4,753 for an increase of 22.4 percent
ILX was up 10.2 percent on sales of 1,614 units

"In addition to strong demand for our lineup of luxury performance products what we are seeing is the growing stature of the Acura brand," said Jon Ikeda, vice president and general manager of the Acura division. "With the reborn NSX on the horizon, Acura is poised for great things in the luxury automotive marketplace."

hondamore

New headline... Acura's wonderful flagship sedan (and this reporter's personal pick for greatest car in the world), the RLX Sport Hybrid, has exploded in sales this year surpassing last year's sales by more than 560%!!!! Proof positive that if you build the very best, educated/sophisticated buyers will clamor to buy one.

TSX69

RLX hybrid 26 -23.5%
Q70 hybrid 12 -7.7%
GS450h 7 +75%
535ih 2 -33.3%
E400h 0 (discontinued)

neuronbob

Wowsers. This is an illustration of the (lack of) market for luxury hybrids. TWO 535ihs? Why bother making them?

Acura is winning the (minuscule) hybrid market, at least. I'm sure that's worth a tiny cheer in Torrance.

2012wagon

Some other numbers for perspective...




Lexus RXh-599
q50 hybrid-484
q60 hybrid -240
NX hybrid-206
Cadillac ELR-45
Panamera-36
Benz S550-10
Accord Plugin-2
Cayenne-83
BMW i8-210




August 2015 Dashboard - HybridCars.com

neuronbob

TSX69's comparison is apples to apples, though.