2012wagon

I think the real market suggests that people who want luxury hybrids are all going CUV/SUV as is rest of the market...

TSX69

I tend to look at it as green hybrids sell OK (ES, RX, NX) whereas performance hybrids ... not so much (GS, LS). Which is why I have been wondering why Acura has not employed the 2 motor system from the Honda Accord yet. It has been out 3 years so I would like to think the bugs are mostly worked out ... ? The TLX could definitely use it and perhaps the RLX if they were looking for more volume.

George Knighton

I don't think the North American TLX chassis is built for the stress of that kind of weight, and it would require a substantial redesign. The fuel economy of the K Motor + 8 DCT was supposed to be good enough to satisfy people whose minds moved in that direction.

If the fuel economy meant more than the vehicle content, then the Accord Hybrid Touring might be the thing to buy instead of the TLX. :-)

I think that in the future you're going to see more two-motor Hybrid Hondas, and more three-motor Hybrid Acuras.

I think.

But what do I know.

George Knighton

LOL....

I'm not sure that hyperbole becomes you.

:-)

hondamore

^^^I happen to have a masters degree in Bovine Scatology.

I was just trying to put a humorous, positive spin on things before the haters gotta hate, hate, hate, hate, hate.

jwong77

Sorta makes you wonder why they gave up on the ZDX when the RLX is selling in similar numbers but they're still willing to march on forward with it. I'm not defending the ZDX, just curious what drives the decision making up there at Honda HQ.

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

Historically, Acura has always been keeping the top-of-the-Acura-line RL sedan going, no matter how dismay the sales figures were.

So naturally, the RLX sedan will be given the same treatment.

George Knighton

To me, the really amazing thing is that they created a sort of collectors item out of the last year of the ZDX by giving it the mid-cycle refresh and then cancelling the project.

ZDX fans love that their cars have the subtle changes of the mid-cycle refresh.

Just like the RLX "Advance" package for 2016, you also got a lot more for the same money the last year of the ZDX.

MisterZDX

The 2013 ZDX is one hell of a vehicle for the price. In 2010 the ZDX was ahead of its time.

With so many people buying crossovers these days, it makes me wonder if the ZDX would've stood a better chance if Acura had brought it back for a second generation, cut back on the nicer upscale interior materials (just to add the tech that's in the TLX and RLX, and still price it competitively).

The problem with the ZDX is, it was just priced too damn high and not very practical for the $50k plus buyer. Backseat and cargo space are damn near useless and the technology is dated, even on the mid model refresh for 2013.

George Knighton

Funny the Crosstour worked out a little better, and building steam as people realize more about it.

I'll tell you something I'll never get over: I think the ZDX should've been based on the Legend platform, or the 4G TL platform, not the Odyssey/Ridgeline platform.

I'll never understand why the Honda got the better theoretical chassis.

Having to release it in 2009, the Legend just wasn't available. But that still leaves us with the 4G TL, which was a very, very good chassis and the same generation SH-AWD.

Oh, well.

jwong77

I agree with this, I figure more people would buy a second gen ZDX if they fixed the shortcomings of the first gen, just because its a CUV and those things sell rather well these days. Also, wasn't the ZDX based on the much more mass market MDX, thus making it more profitable to produce compared to the more bespoke RLX?

neuronbob

142 RLX, 14 Sport Hybrid, down 47% and 62% respectively. Look at that TLX go, though! Nice job, Acura! Now fix (or get rid of?) the RLX....

Malibu Flyer

^^^^ Hybrid sales YTD of 221. A quick search on Cars.com shows 47 Sport Hybrids available nationwide so Oct. sales represented 28% of available cars sold in the month. I would say the decline in sales from last year would be due to limited inventory. I will be curious to see how many Sport Hybrids Acura decides to produce for the 2017 model year if it is indeed a significant MMC. If they don't do a big MMC expect to see them abandon the current RLX model altogether and start fresh in 2018.

For what it is worth when waiting for my tire replacement this week I walked through the Carlsbad Ca. showroom. They had a new '15 RLX PAWS Tech on the floor with a huge sign saying $10,000 off MSRP. I'll bet someone could make a great deal on that RLX. A new PAWS priced in the low $40's sounds like a steal and just goes to demonstrate how poorly the RLX has been received in the marketplace.

neuronbob

CheeseyPoofs McNut

Hey - the RLX beat TL sales by 119 cars!!

Ugpo

OK, but when it comes to the Hybrid, hasn't Acura only committed to manufacturing a certain amount of them (in 2014 I recall they only made 250). I don't know what their committed level is for 2016 and I have been unable to find how many of the 2015's they made (albeit for Canada only). Trying to find a new hybrid for sale can be challenging as you may find one but I was told you can only get what's on the lots and you cannot do a factory order. Not 100% confident about the veracity of that statement so if anyone knows different I'm not beyond reproach.

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

The dealer has to order something from the factory, otherwise vehicles won't mysteriously appear at the dealership's front door.

If you cannot do a factory order, how about asking the dealer to order you one when the next factory production batch is scheduled.

Ugpo

^
In Canada, anyway it seems like more of an allocation scenario and then deals between dealers for re-allocation, but nothing from the factory.

Ugpo

BTW, as a Canadian do you know how many 2015 RLX SH-AWD's were released/sold? I can't find that info anywhere.

Edward'TLS

In that case, the dealer will have advance knowledge of what color combinations it gets allocated and when the allocated units will arrive at the dealership.

As a rule of thumb, Canadian sales is approx. 1/10 that of the US.

hondamore

I was told by the Sales Manager at my Acura Dealership that there were "about 50" Canadian-spec RLX Sport Hybrids made for the 2014 model year. There are 50 Acura dealerships in Canada and the "top dealerships" were allotted TWO Sport Hybrids while the "lower volume" dealerships received NONE. My 2014 Sport Hybrid is #41, so that tells us that at least that number were made.

For the 2015 model year, I was told that "fewer than 50" were made and the allocation was based on "demand" suggesting they were available to the "top dealerships" if they had a buyer. My Acura dealer was allotted two 2014's and sold two 2015's. As an aside, they discounted the 2014's quite heavily where as the 2015's sold near MSRP (suggesting there were buyers who were waiting for the second model year to pull the trigger).

I have absolutely no idea if any 2016's were made or how many.

This information is "informed hearsay", so take it for what it is worth. Just FYI.

Ugpo

^
That makes sense, mine is #00045 and is a 2015.

holografique

Sure, it still doesn't make up for the product being a failure in terms of sales and capturing the buyers market. 120 models sold for the month. That's the PAWS version, and to our knowledge there has been no stated limit in terms of manufacturing the PAWS version. So it is not attributed to lack of inventory. Whereas yes, the low numbers on the Sport-Hybrid can certainly be partially attributed to it being a "unicorn" with very low inventory being manufactured by Honda/Acura.

What's even more disturbing is that I'm willing to bet at least 50% or more of those 120 sold were not 2016 models. They were 2014/2015 models sold at 30/40/50% off MSRP because they simply can't move the vehicles off the lot.

The good news is that Acura has finally publicly acknowledged that the RLX product "needs to be fixed". And for all the right reasons. Let's see if they are able to execute on that this coming year.

Ugpo

Good point, but what would you say is the biggest issue? I enjoy the way the car drives and its interior for the most part (infotainment has room for improvement). But if it had a more adventurous/aggressive exterior, would that cure most of its ills or is it more complex that that, maybe better marketing? I say that because while the TLX is doing very well I would argue that the 2010 TL is every bit as good if not better from a driving perspective (at least where the V6 is concerned).

MisterZDX

Point blank and period...to the average buyer, there is no need to step up to the RLX when a TLX or even Accord Touring can be had with identical features for much less.

I honestly don't even think more aggressive styling or anything else can save the RLX P-AWS. That ship has sunk and Acura simply just needs to go back to the drawing board.

But I am possibly looking forward to a good deal on a 2016 P-AWS next summer when I will be in the market for my next vehicle.

neuronbob

^^^^



Hopefully the next RLX will hit on all cylinders with the public. Mayhap it needs to be designed in North America so North Americans will buy it.

Edward'TLS

Are the RLX and the NSX the only 2 cars not designed in North America ?

neuronbob

The external NSX design is American and it will be built here in Ohio. I think the next RLX also needs to be designed by the American team so it incorporates design elements wished for by North Americans.

hondamore

My opinion is that there is nothing wrong with the RLX except for the price. There seems to be a ceiling of what people will pay for a Honda sedan and the RLX exceeds that. The MDX can get away with high pricing by being fed by the current mass appeal of SUV's, but with sedans, the TLX pricing seems to be the maximum that Honda loyalists will pay before they bolt to the "snobby brands".

The styling is not a problem, in fact, I get a lot of compliments on my RLX's styling. The performance of the Sport Hybrid in particular is very impressive.
The interior is exceptional - spacious, quiet and oozing of quality.

In the current market, sedans are all taking a beating at the hands of CUV's and SUV's and in the luxury sedan market, the snobby brands reign supreme. In my opinion, the RLX's only hope of more sales would be to offer the current level of luxury and performance at a lower price. Doing that may necessitate a "single variant" production line with exterior/interior color being the only options. Even then, sales will not come close to matching the snob brands simply because Acura lacks that appeal.

That is just my two cents.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

After spending a lot of seat time today putting up with typical New York traffic, it gave me time to engage in one of my favorite pass times, looking at other cars and considering what I do and don't like about other brands/models. My eye was caught several times to an Audi S8 and then later an S7. I could not figure out what years either car I saw was, but they looked beautiful. 2016 Audi S7 Release Date, Price and Specs - CNET

I was particularly interested in the exhaust valves that frequently opened and closed with throttle input by the driver. I doubt most would miss that unless they were car geeks like us.

I particularly like the high 3rd brake light that spans the whole top of the rear window. The brake lights look similar to those on a Aventador. A little family lineage I guess.

I truly enjoy the Blackbird but if in the next iteration Acura can garner a little more courage to create styling not too dissimilar to the high end Audi products, I'm sure that would do them some good. I'm a buyer either way. Just a general point.

hondamore

As I've said before, in my opinion, the RLX was designed from the inside out...that is, occupant comfort took precedence over edgy styling. The Audi S7's styling sacrifices quite a bit in order to have the "cooler" look. For example:

RLX Audi S7
Front head room 37.6 36.9
Front leg room 42.3 41.3
Front shoulder room 59.6 57.2
Rear Head room 36.9 36.6
Rear Leg room 38.8 37.0
Rear Shoulder room 57.0 55.9

All I'm saying is that sleek styling comes with a price and designers and buyers have to choose between passenger comfort and cool styling. My personal choice is to have comfort in my sedan daily driver and if I want more cool-factor styling, I'll buy a sports car for weekend fun.

Again, just my two cents.

Malibu Flyer

I'm not sure the S7 is really comparable to the Sport Hybrid......at least not price wise. A S7 comparably equipped to the RLX SH will have a MSRP in the $90k range. The A7 is a better comparable but still will run more than the RLX SH and not have nearly the performance of the RLX SH.

What do you get for your money.....much better styling inside and out, IMHO, brand prestige and likely higher resale value.

I don't find the Audi's somewhat smaller insides a show stopper. I, for one would be happy to sacrifice some interior room for unique styling such as A7. I have maintained for some time that Acura should do more to differentiate the Sport Hybrid from the PAWS. It is truly a different car than the PAWS and the buyers who appreciates the Sport Hybrid performance would like a somewhat more aggressive exterior styling [at least this buyer would and I doubt I am alone]. I perceive the typical PAWS buyers are more conservative in nature.

TacoBello

Comfort is important, but both vehicles are pretty damn big as is. It's like you're comparing an elephant to a slightly smaller elephant. I highly doubt you wouldn't feel a ton of comfort in the S7.

George Knighton

You're still sounding like they ever intended to sell volumes of them.

I've talked to people a few times, and got on the calculator more than a half dozen times.

They don't have the capacity to build that many of them...the way the line is set up, and the time that Saiyama devotes to other models, it's just not happening.

From the very beginning it was just not happening.

Which is good, I guess, because if the car suddenly took off, they wouldn't be able to supply them.

Can you even find an RLX P-AWS Advance anywhere that's the color you want?

Finding any kind of RLX in my part of the world is kind of a problem.

My dealer sells more RLX than almost anybody else...and he's still only going to have a couple of P-AWS cars in stock at any given time.

With the 2014 model year, I think he had maybe 12 in stock at one time, once.

anakin44011

I had the opportunity to "test drive" a new TLX SH-AWD while my 2016 RLX SH-AWD was getting its snow tires on and...I'm very sorry, but the TLX isn't in the same league. I really wanted to like the car. It certainly is an attractive car. But the interior was cramped (back seat passengers hated it) and the ride was very pedestrian. One of my passengers wondered how they are selling that 'souped up Accord' for so much money.

As for the RLX -- you can compare it to much more expensive Euro-sedans as much as you want and it still holds up. I'll take the interior over my old man's S550 any day. Now, I certainly have my quibbles and I really want to see what the next generation holds in battery technology and transmission. But quibbles aside, the RLX is not just a larger, more expensive TLX.

Okay -- I'm calm now. Back to work...

neuronbob

This.

Unfortunately, the market has spoken and doesn't agree with us, no matter how much logic we throw at the situation.

IIDXholic

iTrader: (5)

Hopefully those 2014 RLX's will drop down even further to 30K soon. I would love to pick one up at that price. I will have to part ways with the 6MT SH AWD, but I think that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. The RLX SH-Hybrid is a blast to drive =)

RLX-Sport Hybrid

At the risk of being made fun of by some, once you drive an SH you are hooked. There is just something about the driving experience that is very special. People who are not owners just think we RLX SH people are nuts. Maybe we are a little, but the car is a winner and I don't know of any owner that does not think that (minor issues and all). Decaf RLX (FWD) owners yes, but not SH owners. There is something to be said to know you are enjoying a drive that few others will experience. That is probably the same feeling that many exotic automobile owners feel, not that the SH is exotic, just rare based on very limited volume.

neuronbob

Yeah, I resemble that remark.

MisterZDX

I would have to agree with this. I'm not a fan of the TLX either, but given the amount of them Acura sells in a month (minus the low November sales dip), I would say we are in the minority.

For the life of me I do not understand the appeal of the TLX....great TSX replacement, but I'd still take a 4G TL SH-AWD anyday. My perfect Acura would be the exterior styling of the 4G TL (preferably the 09-11 rear and the 12-14 front with the smaller beak), jewel eyes from the RLX and all the latest tech from the TLX, RLX, and Accord Touring.