Colin

Yes and no. If they truly desire the intangibles such as prestige etc. then the path is clear. However, let's be clear that just because you follow the path, it does not guarantee sales and financial success (these two are not necessarily the same thing).

Personally, I don't want to see more trim levels, I want to see more models with fewer trims among them. Don't forget that between 2004-06 Acura sold nearly 70K TLs a year with (essentially) two trim levels. I've seen no evidence that the explosion of trims has resulted in increased sales or (more importantly) happier customers.

I don't want options, I want fully loaded cars priced right so it doesn't matter if you're "forced" to take a feature you might not want, the price is too good.

In ~10 years SH-AWD did little to raise the brand awareness or 'prestige', dump it. It costs money, sacrifices fuel efficiency and interior space.

I don't want 'better styling', I want I want 'boring' styling that doesn't piss anyone off. Audi makes the most slab sided and boring cars and everybody fawns over them. Stop listening to auto rags! They complain if it's a 1G TSX (boring) and complain if it's a 4G TL (overdone). Just make conservative cars with good, clean lines.

GoHawks

But you can't tell me that the RLX wasn't expensive to introduce? PAWS has gotten a lukewarm response. The hybrid SH-SH-AWD while cool, will be lost on the masses just like SH-AWD was. Same way with those jewel eye headlights.

Maybe they can divert some of the money they invested in those technologies and build a true driver's platform with an exciting design. Get rid of that ugly beak, they have taken a slight step back with interior plastics which they can easily turn around. New sheet metal is not that expensive. Get some bold styling. That was what caused me to leave, not whether it was FWD based.

Yeah I know people have brought up Infiniti and the fact that they have developed proper RWD performance luxury cars and yet they still lag, but why does it seem like Cadillac is gaining ground? I argue it's as simple as a new platform and daring design. Cadillac made a decision that they were going to go a different direction from their past and didn't just dip their toe in the water, but dove in head first. History will determine whether they will succeed long term, but so far they seem to be doing well. Quite honestly their Achilles heal will be if they can't continue improving quality.

GoHawks

I would argue that the 3rd gen TL was a great and timeless design. My brother still has an '06 with the OEM body kit and that car still looks sharp.

GoHawks

Actually with Cadillac their other weakness is the dealer/service dept experience. There were a few of us commenting in the Cadillac forums on this.

I have only needed a loaner twice and each time, the loaners were filthy. In one case the interior border lined on gross with spilled coffee all over the console.

Compare that with Acura who made sure the car was washed and vacuumed, even if it was snowing/raining outside. Same with the one and only time we have gotten one from BMW when our X5 was in for service. We got a 3 series that was spotless. Even Toyota when we had our Landcruiser. Sometimes the loaner was a Yaris or Prius, but at least it was clean.

Some of the stories over on the Cadillac forums is that their dealers are giving them Nissan Versas and other econoboxes. You wouldn't see that at a Mercedes dealership.

I know it sounds like first world problems/gripes, but if you want to be considered part of the big boys, you better act like it too. That's what got Lexus all the attention in the beginning. In addition to the cars, I remember the big deal that was made of the Saturday morning continental breakfast spread while you brought your car in for a hand wash.

Colin

It was an attractive car, simple and not offensive. Same with the 1G TSX. Keep it simple, the rags will always slag on Acura for their styling (and buttons).

Rocket_man

This was the way Acura was successful, offering great value in a nicely equipped car. They lost that with the RLX and to some degree with the ILX. The RDX still has it and sells well. They are slightly reworking the ILX feature set but in my opinion not enough. They will be forced to do the same with the RLX. I hope they learn this lesson for the TLX.

SH-AWD... I personally don't need it and don't want to pay for it and don't want the MPG hit. Some really want it which I understand, but not me.

More and more I see that Acura is not going to have anything to offer me when I sell my car. Too bad since it has served me well.

KeithL

Well if Honda is not going to make luxury cars a priority for Acura then they should just pull out. Why be in the space and not put your best foot forward. I can only think they created the space 20+ years ago, it got away from them, but they need to stay to give people a path form Honda into luxury in order to retain their customer base.

Also all this it would cost billions to develop a RWD platform to me while true is a weak excuse. They have AWD platforms already all they need to do is tweak them and make them AWD with rear bias (like Audi A6) and then offer a lower cost FWD version (again like Audi A6) and then the AWD version that has either 50/50 spilt or 60/40 split like Audi , add in some decent styling and they would have a success.

What does amaze me is all these reviewers that say the RLX looks like an Accord? Huh, what drugs are they on? Just because of similarities in the center stack? There is no angle I look at an RLX and confuse it with an Accord.

Colin

IMO, that's just silly. Pull out when you're selling 150,000 to 180,000 new cars a year? Who is to say that they're not exactly where they want to be? I've said it before but its worth repeating. Despite all the hatred, Honda might be executing their plan to a 'T'. They might hit 200,000 cars this year without building a single dedicated chassis, RWD, or a V-8.

As for the Accord similarity. I think it's a (somewhat) valid discussion. The Accord has always echoed the styling theme of the Legend/RL/RLX. I believe that it's because they occupied the same showroom in Japan so there should be a family resemblance. Especially if you're trying to cast a positive halo over the mass market car with your top line model.

Edited to add: On the styling discussion. I don't see the similarity a negative. What irks me is when people/press make it a negative as if it's exclusive to Honda/Acura when others with multiple lines also do it. Audi/VW, Nissan/Infiniti etc.

KeithL

Ironically I took a quick glacé at what from the back looked like some sort of A4 derivative and when I looked again realized it was a new Passat Audi lines are clearly showing up in VW.

4thaccord

Maybe it's just that attitude that turns people off? As if they're saying with their cars (not SUVs) "hey, we're basically selling fancy Hondas for much more money, but people keep buying them, so let's keep doing it and the heck with whether the cars are worth the extra money or not". I'm not saying everyone thinks that way, but it's certainly obvious in some situations (exhibit A: ILX vs. Civic).

Personally I think they should become an SUV company exclusively like Land Rover, because they just can't seem to get their act together with cars.

Colin

I think that the TL and TSX in their last year in this body style will combine for ~50K in sales, and the ILX will add ~30K. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that these 80K people don't hate their cars as much as you do.

If you were running the show, I'd love to see how you respond to shareholders that you're going to sacrifice 80K in car (in an off year) sales because some on the internet aren't happy with the job you're doing on them. Heck, I bet Infiniti doesn't do 80K a year in sedan sales. Lexus might not even to that much.

Can they improve? Absolutely. I've outlined areas I'd like to see them do in post #241.

weather

I share the comment about my irk on bashing Honda/Acura for sharing similar plateform etc when other companies are doing it as well. I am of the opinion that Acura CAN do fantastic cars but it seems lately, something (or someone) is holding them back. We know the success and the rave reviews from the 1G TSX and the 3G TL....why did things go so bad so fast, especially amongst car reviewers which we all know have some influence on some people. I still think that the following that BMW and other German brands are largely influenced by what people read....people want to follow the masses. I heard many people they hated their Corolla but just bought it because everyone said it was a good and reliable car even though they didn't like it....go figure.

I bought my TL when many hated it...why? Because I liked it which is how it should be. That being said, we all want Acura to be successful and bring the love and passion into the brand because we are passionate. Almost feels like a parent who is trying to save their children from making stupid decision...we all want them to succeed and try and hand all the right options for them on a silver platter hoping they will just grab them and run with it. We all wish we could have 30 minutes with the top 3 executive at Acura....don't we?!

WheelMcCoy

Agreed the A's in the Audi A4 can stand for Anonymous. But the A5 (and A7) Sportbacks are very attractive. It's shaped like a coupe, but there are 4 doors to suggest a sedan. Walk to the back, and you realize it's a hatch! Sadly, it's only available in Europe.

Honda and Acura tried a similar style in their Crosstour and ZDX respectively, but they don't sell well. Maybe Honda/Acura's execution was flawed; the A5 Sportback is certainly more elegant. Or maybe the U.S. just doesn't like sportbacks.

Rocketsfan

If you put the starting pricetag in the low $40's, what would the pricing on a TLX look like when it comes out?

jhr3uva90

Speaking of Cadillacs, I finally rode in the back of an XTS. My new employer used a livery (car driving) service to transport me from the airport to the conference center. I liked riding in it! I hope the RLX presents a similarly comfortable experience. And I still believe livery service and rental car fleets are a big source of Cadillac car sales.

Rocketsfan

Also speaking of Cadillacs, I absolutely loved the design of the ATS. Its design moved me (like the 3G TL's looks moved me when I first saw it) to investigate it when I saw it. But I couldn't jump on a GM product after all the issues I'd seen with them in the past, so I lurked on a Cadillac forum or two (I've seen some of you guys on these forums) and have been watching with interest for the past 1+ years to see what early reports are. I would've loved to buy the car, but am still apprehensive after seeing various quirky and sometimes scary issues popping up on the car in the forums. I've decided to hold off on the ATS for now. I am now looking a the Q50 and IS350. One thing I loved about my TL is that for the pounding I put it through and the way I drive, it's been pretty reliable. I want another car that'll last 150,000+ miles. I would like it to be an Acura, but I swear they're doing everything to make sure it isn't them, and the RLX and ILX are causing me to worry a bit. Then the TLX, which is the car I'd probably get is nowhere in site. Talk about being in entry-luxury sports sedan purgatory. That being said, Acura is still near the top of my list for the reasons others have mentioned. Among them, value (perceived or otherwise) and reliability. BTW, I'm among those who don't really care about SH-AWD, Krell audio, etc. If they jack the price up by making things like that standard, I wouldn't look at Acura.

KeithL

I like the look of the Q50 and I love my M37S, but Infiniti build quality is not on par with Acura and their reseal values sucks. I am curios to see how the Q50 rollout goes. Infiniti is in the process of improving Quality at their plants and has some new measurement they use, unfortunately the only plant to hit the goals is the plant that turns out the M, so the q50 is still being made at the G plant.

4thaccord

That 80k (and that's being generous) was a much higher number a few years ago when Acura made good cars.

Millions of people eat at fast food restaurants every year too. That doesn't mean the food is good, or that McDonald's shouldn't aim higher and do better.

If I were running the show, I would hope to take more pride in my work and not allow people such as Mendel et al to continue pushing products such as the ILX, RLX, and ZDX (and regardless of what Infiniti, Lexus, or "everybody else" is doing).

Colin

Cars sell in different volumes throughout their lifecycle. This is true for even the best and most beloved cars as they near replacement. So yes, sales have been better but they've also been worse. How many sedans do you think they sold in 1995 (total Acura sales 97K)? I'd be shocked if it was more than 30K and this was when "Acura made good cars" (Legend and Integra). The best year ever for the brand was 2005 with 209K with an astounding 151K in sedan sales. Yet, the exact same lineup (TL, RL, TSX) only managed 97K in 2007 and 83K in 2008.

Last year Acura sold 156K (of which the "hated" sedans contributed 79K). So yes, 80K is probably too high a number based on past history but I still believe the ILX will do 30K but it's going to be tough for TL and TSX to pull in 50K combined. We'll need to see how production pans out, with the new Special Edition TL coming, they're slowing production on the other trims. This could put additional constraints on this model.

BTW, "If I were running the show, I would hope to take more pride in my work " is a far different tone than "Personally I think they should become an SUV company exclusively like Land Rover, because they just can't seem to get their act together with cars." and deserves a different reply. The former is perfectly reasonable but the later, nonsensical. Even if they only do 50K in the last year in the market for this gen TL and TSX, nobody is going to write off 50K in volume.

g37guy01

i think it is. the tl may have better leather, but my g(and the g i just rented) is built like a vault...not one rattle after two years of driving on potholes.

4thaccord

First of all, nobody said the cars were "hated" except you. Second, you keep making my point for me, but just I can't make it any plainer to understand: start making cars that more people want to buy.

Tons of people bought the new Civic when it came out. Many probably don't even care what they're driving. Many probably liked it the way it was. And Honda thought the Civic was "good enough" as is. That was until the backlash started, and they realized that "good enough" wasn't going to cut it, so they rushed an update into production to MAKE THE CAR THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE MADE IN THE FIRST PLACE. THIS IS WHAT ACURA HAS DONE WITH THE ILX, RLX, ETC. Instead of making cars that are more than just over-baked Civics and Accords with LED headlights, they figured they were "good enough". THAT is what has to stop.

I was trying to offer constructive criticism and ideas, not start a war. I would think and hope that Acura would be interested in what all customers (and yes, I am an Acura owner) have to say.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

This is how I think Acura should price their sedans:

ILX: $26k - $34k
The current pricing scheme is fine as long as they fix this car up.

TLX: $32k - $50k
Base FWD 2.4: $32k
Tech FWD 2.4: $35.5k
Base FWD 3.5: $36k
Tech FWD 3.5: $39.5k
Advance FWD 3.5: $42k
Base AWD 3.5: $39k
Tech AWD 3.5: $42.5k
Advance AWD 3.5: $45k
Hybrid AWD 3.5: $50k

RLX: $44k - $70k

KeithL

The Q50 will be over $52K so I suspect the TLX will get into the $55K range if they offer a version of the sport hybrid

Colin

Looks sensible. However, I think it's all but confirmed that the TLX will also spawn a coupe version that should also be factored in. Also, the hybrid will be a 4 cylinder FWD. I don't believe there are plans for a AWD Hybrid. That said, I think if they were to do a TLX Coupe Hybrid, it could offer the marketplace something different, especially paired with a 3.5. Wow, how cool would that be, a RLX Hybrid drivetrain in a TLX Coupe body? Would it sell?

SSFTSX

are you sure about ILX getting 30k sales in a year?. it will be like 2500 sales a month. which is not going to happen unless they throw ILX at Civic prices which Honda wont do. They already decreased production considerably.
It would have been great idea of Acura had launched a Sub-RDX SUV with 2.4L DI Accord Engine.

GoHawks

Normally I would stay away from a first year model, especially a completely new platform. The early 2nd gen CTSs were problematic and they were also pre-bankruptcy. Model years from 2010 on we're much improved. As a matter of fact the CTS coupe was rated the most reliable domestic car not long ago. Once they stop qualifying it by specifying "best domestic", then that will mean something.

Having said all that, I think the ATS has been relatively solid.

jwong77

Not sure how credible this source is, but they gave the ATS 4 out 5 for reliability.

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com...S/Reliability/

GoHawks

Not bad for a first year model on a new platform.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

lol yea that hybrid one...I just threw it there as that's what I'd like to drive!

Looking at that, that seems to be a lot of trims once you add in a coupe version.

I think that's "predicted reliability" as I think the car is too new to have any data supporting any reliability claim.

jwong77

Interesting thought, I would imagine it would come down to how much and how well the design is executed.

I just don't think the Acura brand currently has the brand equity to sell for much more than the 50-55k range. But if they launched the TLX coupe as sort of a little brother to the NSX, and market it correctly, then I think it would have a good chance of being successful. However, given their recent track record with new model launches, I wouldn't hold my breath.

ScottBjorn3D

I do not know about the ILX, we where given one as a loaner and it sucked. Felt cheap, the transmission clunked loudly and even jerked when putting it in gear. They need a sporty low end, bring the Integra back.

dzionny_dzionassi

I don't know now about current G series, but we have 05 g35x. And its fit and finish really bad. Wind noise( rear windows) all kind noises when you hit pothole (interior) interior plastic super cheep. Last Infiniti in my family.

Colin

Generally, I agree with both of you. Execution will be key, and there is reason to doubt their resolve.

Let's play 'what if'? What if they make a Acura version of the Accord Coupe. AT and MT, LEDs, FWD for sure, AWD if they're using the mechanical SH-AWD in the TLX sedan. This would have to be $35-45K depending on content.

What if they pull a page from history (Fiat X/19, Toyota MR2) and take the sub-assemblies holding the engine and rear suspension and swap them front to rear? This could create a Mid-Engine RWD sports car without needing to fully reengineer the drivetrain. What if were NA only, 310 hp, 6MT, LED. Could this sell for the same price as the original NSX? Say ~60K?

Well now you've gone and hurt my feelings. We had 3 Integra GS-Rs ('94. '97. '99) and I currently have a 6MT ILX. This is better in every way except possibly handling feel. 200hp vs. 170hp (on the old hp scale), HID vs. halogen, 6MT vs. 5MT, Leather vs. Cloth, and all the new luxury items like bluetooth, pusbutton start, USB etc. Most of this applies to the automatic version of the ILX as well, so long as you're not talking about the base version (cloth). LOL just my (gotta defend my car)

jwong77

Option 1: they already played this game with the first and second gen CL, which both flopped more or less from a sales standpoint, I personally owned a first gen back in college. Both cars were styled pretty different from their donor cars (5th gen Accord, and 6th gen Accord), but still didnt hit the mark. I'm going to guess that they'll need to style this car way more aggressively, and as I said earlier market it as a poor man's NSX.

Option 2: this would be really interesting. It would provide an additional halo that the brand needs badly. Having two cars with mid-engined sport car credentials could really bring some brand equity back to Acura. If they create this car, please bring back the "Precision Crafted Performance" tag line and requisite marketing campaign.

With all that said, I don't think the cars will sell in large numbers, and it wouldn't really matter because that would make them exclusive for good reasons. But what it would do is bring Acura back into the conversation when speaking about premium performance vehicles. It'll bring people into the showrooms to buy the bread and butter cars.

Rocket_man

I'm in the same boat. I want Acura to succeed (by which I mean increase sales and market share) but in the near future they are not doing anything to keep me in the brand. The new IS is at the top of my list, the Q50 is near the top. There is not an Acura car model to put on that list. If I were forced to buy an Acura right now the only model I'd buy is the RDX. But right now I'm looking for a sedan.

Cheer up, it looks like the new Q50 is built at that plant. I think most if this is aimed at cars built in the US.

"...So far, only one plant -- the Tochigi assembly plant -- has passed muster. It makes the Q50, the replacement for the G sedan. It also builds the following vehicles, listed by their current names and what they soon will be renamed under Infiniti's new nomenclature: the M sedan (Q70) and EX and FX crossovers (QX50 and QX70). It also makes the Nissan GT-R sports car and the 370Z sporty coupe. "

Colin

And don't forget two generations of Legend Coupe which were also largely sales failures. You want to know the funniest thing? Purely anecdotally, I've always felt that the rise of extra cab (sport) pick-up trucks killed the affordable coupe segment. I know it sounds weird, but they offered similar 2+2 seating but more cargo capacity. They also capitalized on the booming SUV market craze and the start of Nascar truck racing. Cheap to buy and easy to mod I saw many a Integra or CL owner move to a X-10 or Pre-Runner back in those days.

As for a TLX Coupe. The challenge would be to make something that is not just a Accord Coupe copy. IMO, this is why (if it were me) it would only be SH-AWD. For price considerations, the mechanical one makes the most sense, and it might finally give this drivetrain some real attention. I would NOT be excited if it were FWD only.

jwong77

Unfortunately, I'm not old enough to comment on how the Legend coupe fared. Though I got the impression it did well with the press and in turn was a positive for the Acura brand. Did it do enough to help increase sales of the Integra?

neuronbob

Been gone for a couple of weeks, and I come back to sad news on RLX sales.

Hopefully it's just a blip and things will pick up. Rather than speculate on what's wrong, I'll be optimistic.

KeithL

I'll place my bet on under 500 in June.

BDoggPrelude

Would most consider the 2G RL a success or failure? Either way, there were 17,527 RL's sold in 2005. At 400ish units being sold per month, the RLX has a long way to go before it's even living up to its predecessor. Hell, the 1G 3.5RL was selling substantially more at the end of its cycle than the RLX is right now. I hope Acura is really grinding away at the AWD model. It really is pitiful that Acura offers AWD on 4 out of 7 cars in its lineup...and the flagship model is not one of them.