JM2010 SH-AWD

I've seen the opposite in my TL. Admittedly, when SH-AWD is working at its maximum parameters, I'm usually more interested in watching things other than the dash indicator, but I have noticed some pretty big swings on the AWD display, both front to rear and side to side. On a high-G turn with power on, that outside rear wheel is getting the lion's share of the power. I love the feeling that translates to in the car's handling.

noobie

Yes we have been through this many times. Can't justify sales on features alone. Make something that inspires or evokes emotion that includes these features and you not only have winner, but can charge a premium.

noobie

Acura loses another loyal one.... are you reading these forums?

jhr3uva90

I don't know if Acura reads this particular forum, but I'm sure they are doing their research.

In my opinion, most "regular" people who buy $50K+ cars are 1) actually leasing the cars, and 2) choosing brand first. As we have discussed before, Infiniti already created a car that addresses what luxury buyers claim they want (RWD, V8 option, sporty handing, unique styling). That car, the Infiniti M, is a great car but not a great seller. Why? Brand. Why buy an Infiniti for that price when you can buy something German that makes a brand statement. Lexus has been making the GS for over 20 years and it has never sold nearly as well as the Mercedes E Class or the BMW 5 Series. If I were Honda/Acura, I would not bother creating a whole new RWD platform or a V8 engine just to have the kind of sales the Infiniti M has, it just isn't worth it for a small car company like Honda. They would be better off either: 1) staying out of the $50K+ sedan market altogether or 2) making a car based on a current platform that can push the platform forward.

Just my opinion, though.

WheelMcCoy

Makes sense. A friend shopping for a Lexus RX 350 hybrid learned from the dealer that 80% of the customers lease.

I agree, Acura should concede the 50k+ RWD Luxury territory to the Germans and innovate in a new direction. No point in copying... just look at Tesla for a brilliant example of breaking the mold.

Acura's upcoming NSX shows promise. I actually like the V6 powering the rear wheels with electric motors driving the front wheels. Auto journalists, purists, and less thoughtful people sniff at that, insisting only a V8 or V10 will do.

noobie

Lexus is a brand that many buyers "chose first". Infiniti has not been that successful. According to Brand Directory, the Lexus Brand is worth twice what Acura and Infiniti are. Are you saying that Acura should not try to create such a brand?

For comparison it ranks Audi brand value at almost 2x Lexus. BMW and Mercedes brands are worth about 15 times Acura and Infiniti. Just one source of course.

Not sure I totally agree that buyers of $50K+ cars chose brand first, but since it was brought up, some brand tidbits.

Here is link, not sure if it will work, that lists the top 50 auto brands by value http://brandirectory.com/league_tabl...e/auto-50-2013

jshaw

I think Lexus stumbled since the current LS is everything the LS wasn't - and it was relatively unreliable for a big Lexus. Rumor has it, Akio Toyoda reassigned the entire team (fired, in any other word), delaying the next LS to around when the next 7 series is arriving.

Though the RX is an acceptable compromise, the deluge of ES sedans probably never helped their brand image, either.

noobie

Are you referring to the new LS that was just released as a 2013 model?

jshaw

^^ That's not a new LS, it's a refresh, the second one, now. The news is Toyoda ordered the refresh to buy time for a completely new LS later on (after the first effort was canceled). The best guesses point it arriving around the same time as the new 7 series.

seanlin

I have been watching dealer's inventory in SF bay area. It looks like they haven't getting any new cars in past few weeks. If no new cars how do they sell?

KeithL

Hell I see the same cars in the dealer inventory in the local Acura dealers.

TSX69

Award-Winning Accord and Record-Setting Light Truck Sales Fuel Hot Honda May;
Acura RDX Sets All-Time Monthly Sales Record

American Honda Motor Co., Inc. today reported May 2013 U.S. sales of 140,013 units, a total increase of 4.5% compared with May 2012 (up 4.5% based on the Daily Selling Rate, or DSR*). The Honda brand posted May 2013 sales of 125,649 units, an increase of 5.2% compared with May 2012. Acura brand U.S. May sales of 14,364 units decreased 1.5% compared with May 2012.

Honda

Honda light trucks post a May sales record led by record sales of CR-V (up 8.4%) and strong gains by Pilot (up 11.3%) and Odyssey (up 15.0%)
Critically acclaimed Honda Accord maintains incredible sales momentum, up 11.7% with 33,218 units; Honda Fit posts a double-digit sales gain, up 20.3% on sales of 4,667
Honda Civic continues strong retail sales with 30,268 units in May

"Looks like American families are preparing for summer road trips as our family-friendly light truck lineup posted the best May sales in Honda history," said John Mendel, executive vice president of Sales at American Honda. "Virtually every Honda vehicle we sold in May represents a purchase by an individual customer, which means Accord, Civic, CR-V and Odyssey will maintain their industry-leading retail sales performance in 2013."

Acura

RDX sets an all-time monthly sales record and its 13th consecutive monthly sales record, up 49.3% from last May; is the top-selling Acura model in May with sales of 4,930 units
The all-new luxury flagship RLX sedan, which went on sale in March, continues to gain momentum with sales of 273 units

"With the RDX setting its 13th consecutive monthly sales record we are very excited to be introducing the all-new 2014 MDX in a few weeks, which will once again give Acura hands down the best luxury light-truck lineup in America," said Jeff Conrad, vice president and general manager of Acura Sales.

*The daily selling rate (DSR) is calculated with 26 days for May 2013 and 26 days for May 2012. Year-to-date, the DSR is calculated with 127 days for 2013 and 127 days for 2012. All other percentages in release are unadjusted; see table for adjusted DSR figures.

noobie

Ah, OK, yes a major refresh by Lexus standards. That model and the former GS were put out around the same time. Both had issues uncharacteristic of Lexus. I believe the GS team was reassigned as well as the quality issues were quite an embarrassment. But I guess it's all relative as some makes could only aspire to Lexus' reliability duds.

getakey

273!!!
Way worse than I was expecting. Thought they would at least hit 500

noobie

273.... I was off by 3x. The spin doctors call that gaining momentum. It would be funny, it it weren't so sad.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Just as I have been saying, it would have been a great achievement if Acura managed to sell 800 RLX/month.

The $50k+ price tag is scaring people away....people won't even check it out. I still think having a lower price tag starting in the low $ 40'swould help.

2011TL

With these abysmal sales there is no way Acura will MSRP the RLX/Hybrid in the $70k-$74k range as some on here have suggested.

jhr3uva90

I agree and I think that's a good thing.

silver3.5

Our local dealer has 4 in stock but none in the showroom! One is parked in the used car n lotand the other 3 was in the back! Looks like they're not even planning to sell those at all! Thus I'm not surprised with 273!

jhr3uva90

Do the dealers even want to sell this car?

KeithL

273 damn that is really sad. This thing is a failure within 2 months. They wasted their energy on the RLX, had they released a decent TLX right now they would be really rocking and they would have beat Q50 and CTS. Q50 looks like it will be shipping in August. TL sales even with 0.9 and $3500 worth of incentives are bad too. And honestly even is RLX Hybrid came out tomorrow for $65K I would not touch it because resale on the RLX is going to suck unless you keep it 5+ years.

KeithL

Even the Infiniti M sold 471 units and it has been out 38 months. I wonder what RLX incentives we'll see now.

Colin

IMO, they overdid it with the trim levels and packaging. With the low volume, they are rotating production, only building certain models/colors in a given month. So if they announce they're not building base RLX in May and concentrating on Advance, our Tech orders go unfulfilled till the next month. How are you supposed to sell this? What to tell the customer? "yes you can order it but I can't tell you when you'll get it or when they'll make it"

Currently, we only have base and Navi in stock, with two orders on Tech and Krell awaiting production. These cars 'sold' in May, won't be reported till next month or the following one.

getakey

Consistent with Delaers around here. I see lots of Base and Navi, a few Tech, but virtually no Advance or Krell

KeithL

Well that is just stupid. I toured the BMW plant in SC a few years ago and they can make any car at any time. What are then hand making these things? Again Acura blew it with the RLX, if they were going to be this crazy with production the TLX would have been better to go first. I also assume the MDX is running late since it appears the embargo was lifted a few days ago, but not cars on sale for the foreseeable future.i know that are being careful as to not blow it, but at least for the RLX that boat has sailed. Then I have several dealers now telling me they are hearing the TLX is not coming until summer 14. If that is true Acura will essentially be a SUV company for the next 12 months.

Colin

This how Honda has always built cars and how BMW builds them. Neither is 'right' or 'wrong', but each has their strengths and weaknesses. I have yet to see Honda/Acura really excel at the top end of the sedan range (and yes I include the Legends, especially 2G). Conversely, I have yet to see BMW offer a quality car at like an Accord at a $20-25K price point.

Malibu Flyer

Colin -- do you think Dealers are happy with the pace of RLX sales? Is it too still early to expect any discounts to help move the metal or will Acura simply keep production low and sell what they can without much in the way of incentives?

Colin

Considering that the car debuted with a lease that required selling well below list, I think it's safe to say that there are deals to be had out there.

Marco's TSX

Agreed, Acura did a pretty good job on executing the RLX

KeithL

True, but you can not build low volume car that way. You can't expect people to want to order with no real expectations when it will be built then add on 2 months as it ships half way around the world.

Colin

Which goes back to what I wrote earlier. They need to stop trying to offer choice. 2 maybe 3 trim levels with far fewer color choices. All well equipped, base with Leather, Tech and Advance. This way, they can concentrate production and and provide more timely deliveries.

KeithL

Agreed 3 trims would have been fine and honestly, if they got SH-AWD down to $2K option on the MDX then the RLX should have had it. As good as the Krell is, it will not attract many buyers as maybe SH-AWD would have. They should have had Base Tech and Advance and maybe make AWD standard in all but the base. Now you have the issue where the TLX will shrink and if you have someone that wanted a decent sized 5-Series competitor at a value price I don;t think the RLX will do it and TLX will be too small.

GoHawks

Completely agree.

weather

^^ which seems to be what Acura Canada is doing....3 trims (Base, Tech , Elite). Lets see if that strategy pays off. The RL wasn't much of a success in Canada and not sure this will work either but lets wait and see.

I am really sad by the turn of events with the RLX.....I want Acura to be successful but at the same time, the senior management team has done such dumb decision in the last few years that its hard to have any sympathy

GoHawks

I thought I would post this with respect to the renaissance that Cadillac is enjoying.

I am not posting this to be a troll and also not because I own a Cadillac as I think despite their advances and improvements they could still learn a thing or two from Honda/Acura with respect to fit, finish and how to build engines.

You can also bring up the whole bankruptcy thing and I would agree with most of you, but remember that the resurgence for Cadillac started with the first gen CTS back in 2002. That car while a radical departure barco-lounger cruisers of the past, still had some quality issues. The second gen CTS better styling, better quality interior materials and improved quality post bankruptcy.

Other interesting facts, a few that I didn't even know.

- for a short while, up until last year when the ATS and XTS were introduced, the CTS, SRX and Escalade were the only models in the lineup
- the SRX accounts 29% of Cadillac sales (I didn't know that)
- the original designs for the ATS were on a FWD platform. As a matter of fact early mules that were being driven in Europe were FWD. Cadillac then figured out that if they were going to compete with the 3 series, it had to be RWD.
- the current generation CTS coupe was pretty much a fun sketch by one of the designers. When the government toured the GM design studios a couple of the government officials began fawning over the provocative design and resulted in GM deciding to build it

According to this article Cadillac has now overtaken Acura as the #4 luxury brand behind BMW, Merc and Lexus respectively. We can debate endlessly on whether Cadillacs are better built than Acuras and I would agree with some of the doubters, but quite honestly we won't know yet for a few more years as the current generation models begin to age (so far so good with me personally). The fact remains though that Cadillac is selling cars, they have new cars in the product line (redesigned CTS and new rumored flagship) and they are generating a ton of excitement.

Can you imagine what Honda/Acura could do with their engineering prowess? What they lack is some passion and excitement.

The NSX is a positive sign that someone there has a pulse, but they need more.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-e...213405454.html

KeithL

The reality is they needed to build up the brand and a FWD RLX was not the way. Honestly they should have done SH-AWD and had it be more 50/50 split this take away the FWD stigma or 60/40 like Audi Quattro and then they need to come up with some less bland styling. And have they not figured our the grille is still part of the problem. I can't think of anyone that has such a large slab of metal as part of their grille. The old 3G style cross bar A logo was fine. Unfortunately they are way too deep now into this design.

jhr3uva90

I agree with you and thank you for this posting. I have a couple of questions. 1) What effect do car rentals and livery services have on Cadillac sales? Honda/Acura don't do either of these options. 2) Even after bankruptcy, GM is one of the top 3 largest car companies on Earth. Honda is not. Do you think GM would be able to reinvigorate Cadillac if it were as relatively small as Honda, or with similar resource constraints?

GoHawks

Those are valid questions and I don't have those numbers, but a few things to keep in mind. I know that you can rent an ATS and CTS if you wanted to, but they are typically the base models and they are still pretty expensive compared to other fleet cars. About two years ago we took a family vacation to Orlando. I am a Hertz Gold member and had some points. Since I had pondering buying a CTS someday I looked into renting one. It required upgrading to their Prestige collection (includes Mercedes, Volvo, Lincoln and Infiniti models) and it was pretty expensive ( again a base CTS). I had some points and with my status I was able to get one at a more reasonable price, but it was still pretty expensive.

My point is that, yes, they may still sell to fleets, but the rental fleets don't carry as many of those models like they do for your garden variety Impalas, Corollas, and Fusions.

Also keep in mind that the platform of the 2nd gen CTS ('08-'13) was exclusive to the CTS. The ATS platform was all new and was initially exclusive to Cadillac. The redesigned CTS will be built on a stretched version of that (Alpha) platform and eventually the new Camaro will share that platform.

It is a significant expense to dedicate to essentially one brand. Admittedly the XTS shares the same platform as the Buick LaCrosse, but it's widely known that the XTS is a stop gap until a proper flagship is introduced. It also caters to the previous DTS clientele. The SRX and Escalade platforms are shared with other GM vehicles.

They do share engines from other GM models. The 3.6L is used in various GM brands but are tuned differently depending on make and model. Same as the 2.0T that is in the ATS and the upcoming base CTS. The base ATS 2.5L is also used in the Malibu, and the CTS-V engine is a slightly detuned version of the engine in the Corvette Z06.

So yes, Cadillac does share some technology to minimize costs while keeping some exclusivity with others (like the ATS and CTS platforms).

In the end I don't buy that Honda's size prohibits them. What they're doing with the NSX is a good start, but they need to carry that down to their sedans, especially with styling. Styling and passion doesn't require a significant investment, just turn some of those NSX designers loose on some of those sedan designers.

GoHawks

I agree 100%!

jhr3uva90

Yes, but the NSX is just one car. To create a platform that can support compact and midsize RWD sedans ala Cadillac or Infiniti would probably cost billions. And the fact that Honda is much smaller than GM matter. Also, the fact that Honda is an independent company (unlike Nissan) matters. Finally, the fact that Honda is more a motor cycle company than car company (based on revenues) matters. In other words, luxury sedans are NOT Honda's priority. In fact, I think the only reason why they are bringing back the NSX is to show what their hybrid motor technology can do.