GoHawks

Don't Audi and VW share platforms? I don't think anyone will EVER mistake an Audi for a VW.

jhr3uva90

1. Yup! Then again, even the premium brands are going downscale (Mercedes A Class, BMW 1 Series).

2. Also, yup! I never understood why the S2000 wasn't an Acura.

3. As I said before, Honda sucks at marketing.

4. I'm sure there's business reason why they waited so long to refresh both generations of RL. I'm guessing they had to sell a certain number of them to recoup costs.

5. Maybe AHM should have hired Europeans to do industrial design instead of Americans.

6. Those are the limits of platform engineering. However I think there is a good amount of differentiation between the Acura MDX and the Honda Pilot.

GoHawks

There was another story going around here for a while, and that was that Acura North America never really accepted the RL and as a result never marketed it because it wasn't designed here. They felt it was forced on them by Japan. As a result they they never embraced it and let it languish.

Well if the Acura beak is the best that Acura NA can do, I say send the design work back overseas.

And yes I do agree that they did differentiate the MDX from Pilot, both in design and also content.

I do believe only Acuras get SH-AWD.

jhr3uva90

According to an old Wall Street Journal article, Honda in Japan proposed a design for the 3rd generation Acura TL that AHM rejected. That design became the 2nd generation RL. That's why AHM (North America) never really accepted the RL. The car was basically forced on them.

That still doesn't explain why it took so long for the 1st and 2nd generation RLs to be replaced, though.

Oh, and only Acuras get SH-AWD. That's supposed to be Acura's defining feature.

BDoggPrelude

I agree with all of the above except the S2000. The S2000 was far too much of a global vehicle to brand as an Acura in my opinion.

I am also long past the thought process that Acura needs RWD based V8 vehicles to succeed. It's all of the other reasons that they are failing. The 3rd gen TL was the last car that Acura really hit out of the park and that was nearly a decade ago. Everything since then has been rehashed, conservative products. Like I said before in this thread, Acura has been relying on their Honda dependability image for far too long. Now that most cars are relatively reliable, Acura's reliability/dependability has become almost irrelevant.

Acura may be satisfied with resting on their laurels for now...eventually it is going to catch up with them and bite them in the ass. If they want to get to the next level, or even continue to be relevant for the next 10 years, they need to dig deep and find their balls. I think the first move at Acura needs to be axing the entire design team. It's time to bring in some edgy designers that will create products that strike a chord in consumers. Something that will turn heads. Something that will make people forget that the car they are looking at is a FWD V6.

GoHawks

With respect to the S2000, we can agree to disagree.

The original NSX was a Honda everywhere else, but introducing here as an Acura did serve the brand well as a halo car. The S2000 would have given it another model to help strengthen the performance image. It was a niche vehicle and niche vehicles should be with your upscale brand. Having nothing to do with RWD.

To me, they gave the S2000 to the Honda dealers to appease them and it further reinforced that they weren't serious about investing in the Acura brand.

Nonetheless, as we have discussed before, the missteps go well beyond just the S2000.

SSFTSX

Your simply not understanding it.
Just put 245/19 inch size tires in Honda Accord. and see how its fuel economy/handling further collapses
TL-SH-AWD is designed from the ground up to handle large wheels and still deliver superior handlling/refinement.

There is practically no difference between ES/Camry/Avalon.
Consider increasing the size of Honda Pilot tires to 255/19. and see how it can handle it. The gap will further increase from MDX.

This is simply not the case with RX/Highlander hybrid comparision. both use 19inch and highlander is taller vehicle (taller x-section tires) with more ground clearance so its skid number is low.

BDoggPrelude

These numbers are misleading due to tire differences. The Highlander comes with an "S" performance rated tire while the RX comes with a "V" performance rated tire. There is a huge difference in lateral grip generated between the tires these vehicles are equipped with from the factory.

This is why every vehicle performance comparison that concerns skidpad, slalom and braking should be taken with a grain of salt. I think all comparison tests should be done with all participants using the exact same tires. There is just too much difference in grip between different tires to draw a fair conclusion in my opinion.

GoHawks

You are not getting it. I don't care how they modify them, what wheels they put on them, they are still built on the same platform.

Did you read the links I supplied?

SSFTSX

S and V is not big difference. more function of speed rating.
It is the all season vs summer performance that make a difference.

see this GS350F sport. it needs 265/35/19 tires in the rear to achive 0.89g handling. Now such skinny tires will cost $400 to replace and 1 year life at most and will be uncomfortable ride in rear.
so you have to include the cost of yearly tire replacement to enjoy a vehicle.
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...50-f-sport.pdf

I doubt RLX need such tire size with such small x-section.

SSFTSX

so u can make Accord on Civic platform. as they have same suspension on struts in front and multi link in rear. just difference in size.
There is vast difference between Acura and Honda platforms. Honda platforms are not designed to handle those G forces with larger wheels.

GoHawks

I never said that the Civic and Accord are the same platform.

The Cicic and ILX are the same platform.

The Accord and the TL are the same platform and are built in the same plant on the same line I believe.

The MDX, TL and Odyssey are on the same platform.

They may modify tires and suspension to accentuate different handling, but they come from the same bones.

I have provided you the links and the proof, whether you choose to believe it or not

BDoggPrelude

Absolutely not true. While the only thing that is mandated by a speed rating is the top speed it is rated to, it's pretty common knowledge that a V speed rated tire has better handling and overall grip attributes than a lesser rated S or even H rated tire. What do you think it is that makes a tire be able to run a higher top speed? Stiffer belt package? More advanced rubber compounds that handle heat and stress better? Better stability at high speeds? All of those things equate to better handling no matter what the speed is. Sorry, you're wrong.

GoHawks

Absolutely correct. Don't forget stiffer sidewall too.

SSFTSX

So building some thing at same plant make it same?. there is alot of design, and strenght of materials to handle that extra weight.
4000lbs TL-SH-AWD cannot have same platform as 3300 lbs Honda Accord. It need whole different level of reliability and functioanl testing. It just not weight difference but with width of TL impart much higher aerodynamic forces on platform.
There is less weight difference between Civic and Accord than between Accord /TL. so why Civic and Accord are not same platform?
ILX and Civic has nearly identical weight and similar handling so there platforms are identical.

BDoggPrelude

Stiffer belt packages=stiffer sidewalls.

Trust me, I know my shit when it comes to wheels and tires.

SSFTSX

S and V dont have that big difference. like Z rated summer compund.
I have tested all S, V and Z rated Advant sport. it is 180AAA rated tires. and there is difference among Z rated tires. Hankook Ventus V1 Z rated with same XL 95 load cannot handle like Advan sport. speed is the least of concern.
S/V easily 300 to 500 rating. you wont feel that much difference in S and V as compared to Z rated. higher speed does not mean taking higher loads on corners.

GoHawks

You have lost credibility with me and I will no longer debate you.

You are clueless.

Here is one of many sources. If you are going to debate, debate facts, not your opinions.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/news...cura-tl-sh-awd


it's true that the TL remains built on the same platform as the best-selling Honda Accord sedan. But you might miss out on an excellent choice if you dismiss it for that reason. As we recently discovered over the course of a week with the new 2012 TL in high-performance SH-AWD guise—directly following a week with a Honda Accord V-6, no less—the TL has a completely different personality, and it's truly worth the extra money. And on public roads, you'll have nearly as much fun, if not more, than those traditional sport sedans.

BDoggPrelude

So then what exactly makes a tire safer at a higher speed then? Please tell me what components of the tire make up that higher speed rating and then tell me how those do not affect the overall handling abilities of the tire.

Also, Yokohama only makes the Advan Sport in 2 size that are not Z-rated, 205/55R16 and 225/50R16. Those two sizes they make it in a V-rating. They definitely do not make the Advan Sport in an S-rating. Also, pretty hard to compare Yokohama's top performance tire, (other than the AO48 and AD08 that are basically designed for competition use), against any Hankook street tire.

SSFTSX

You can read the whole description.(it is very long) No where it is written that TL has anything to do with USDM Accord chasis. Infact they made reference to TSX suspesnion. and remeber TSX is built in Japan. since it is built in Japan. so it cannot share anything with TL. since TL and TSX dont share any factory. since they dont share factory. they must be different according to your logic?

let decide how much percentage TL and Accord shares suspension.

SSFTSX

speed does not mean taking loads on corners. you can still go super fast in straight line but tire will be practicall worthless for corners when all the load of the car comes on one side.
Your simply not getting this point. Advan sport is Acura TSX optional tire. and it is Z rated with XL 95 load. It is widely different than XL 95 load Z rated Hankok Ventus.

BDoggPrelude

I don't know if English is not your first language or you are just grammatically challenged but you don't make much sense. Answer this one for me genius, if all a speed rating is good for is top speed, why is it that the Highlander Hybrid, with a 114mph top speed, utilizes an S-rated tire while the RX400h, with a 112mph top speed, utilizes a V-rated tire? Why are there dozens of vehicles that come from the factory with a V-rated tire when they are electronically limited to 120mph or less? Did those companies just decided it would be best to waste money on a higher speed rated tire because they just had nothing better to do with the budget for their cars? Did they assume their customers were going to just find a way to override the electronic speed governor and wanted to make sure they would still be safe at higher speeds?

BDoggPrelude

BTW, you don't have to try to explain cornering and speed to me. I work in the tire industry and I have many years of various racing experience under my belt.

SSFTSX

Alot of reason for tires. fuel economy/life span/long term purchase contracts.

see this ES350 & GS350. do these car handle close to each other?.
http://www.lexus.com/models/ES/specs/
17 x 7.0-in split-six-spoke alloy wheels with 215/55VR17 all-season tires[*]

http://www.lexus.com/models/GS/specs/
17 x 7.5-in nine-spoke alloy wheels with 225/50VR17




I mention RX uses lower profile tires than Highlander. Highlander has more ground clearance. it does not need that much higher speed. I bet if u put same tires on both handling will be pretty similar.
on other hand if u put TL-SH-AWD tires on Accord. Accord will not make it to TL-SH-AWD. this is fundamental difference .

SSFTSX

your not design engineer. and as two brands with same ratings can have completely different tire behaviour. These things are intellectual property of each tire manufacturer. otherwise Chinese could have copied Michellen or Yokhama decades ago.

BDoggPrelude

First off, I started this by telling you that you can't compare the handling of these two cars fairly because of the tire differences. Then you argue with me back and forth about how the tires don't matter. Now you say, "I bet if u put same tires on both handling will be pretty similar." Are you mentally challenged? That's what I said from the beinning.

A GS is going to handle better than an ES because it is a RWD sport sedan and an ES is a softly sprung cruiser. You're really great at comparing apples to oranges.

The RX400h with the 19" wheel option runs a 235/55R19. The Highlander Hybrid runs a 245/55R19. They both are a "55" series profile so you're wrong, again.

Good lord. Just stop arguing. You obviously have nothing to add to this thread...possibly this entire forum in general. Do you notice how you have a total of 11 "thanked" posts out of the 2,400+ times you've posted on this forum? That means that, in general, you have nothing relevant to contribute when you post, which is pretty obvious considering the way this thread has gone.

GoHawks

The fact that you can argue that the TL and Accord are not on the same platform when it is common knowledge that it has been from the start proves that you don't know hat you are talking about.

I'm done with you. You don't know what you are talking about. Same goes for you inane arguments on tires and handling.

KeithL

A few comments based on my opinion;

First there is nothing wrong with platform sharing, it is part of the economics of manufacturing anything, reuse your investment in R&D to maximize efficiency. This does 2 things, first it keeps costs down and then you are not constantly re-inventing the same thing and can concentrate on making it better. Platform sharing goes on all the time, the Lexus ES is now based on the Avalon where before it was based on the Camry. Audi and VW share, Infiniti and Nissan share, the JX is a fancy Murano. Again IMO this is fine as long as there is enough differentiation to set the luxury brand apart. I think the 3G and 4G TL were different enough from the Accord that it did not matter. Hell those of us on these forums understand the underlying pinnings, but honestly I have talked to people that had no clue that Toyota owned Lexus and Honda Acura, many average people are fairly clueless and or ignorant.

The luxury market is bout 2 things, luxury and making a statement. I believe Acura has fallen down on both sides of that, not so much on the luxury side, but on the statement side. I find Acura interiors to be adequate at qualifying for luxury, but sometimes they just don;t show it. The 4G TL materials are very nice, but that cluttered center stack really scream "cheap". As for making a statement their styling has been all over the map. Every luxury brand has a theme to their cars, Acura has decided to focus on this stupid beak at first and then tamed that down and there are no other styling queues common across their cars. Hell I could take that chrome cross bar from the grill and stick it on any car and call it an Acura and no one would challenge it. And their styling is too conservative. Even MB which to me was a very conservatively styled car has been getting rather edgy in its designs. Acura tried with the 4G TL and blew it and instead of learning form the mistake retreated to bland styling. The C Concept and the new fit based urban cross over concept show that Honda can do it, they need to take that risk and it will pay off. Until then Acura they will be a value brand where you can get a solid luxury like car for a decent price, of course the new RLX pricing does not say value as much as the old RL did.

3.2TLc

Very well spoken !
Acura really needs to step up to the plate and deliver a much more uniquely styled automobile rather than relying on their Honda engineering value. It's rather sad when you have a TL competing against a RL, which is where they are headed.....one's gonna go !

KeithL

One thing I noticed from my Infiniti M is that Infiniti does a masterful job of disguise. I can see the cost cutting when I dig deep (doors don't close as solid bank vault like a TL does, doors feel a tad light weight, etc), but to the average person everything they see and touch screams elegant luxury, flowing sculpted lines inside and out, materials that look and feel top grade. Simple things like the way the control stack buttons look and feel and are surrounded with a brushed metal look and surrounded by dark lacquered wood. The GS350 appeals to me a little, but it falls flat with a disjointed interior dash and a moderately bland look from the side and back. The new RLX seems to have taken a fairly conservative approach to the interior as well, with some moderate curves/lines. If I ranked the RLX, GS350 and M37 interiors I would go M37, RLX, GS350. On the exteriors I would go M37, GS350, RLX. Build quality (assuming RLX is built as tight as TL and RL) I would rank RLX, GS350, M37.

EL19

iTrader: (4)

I think Honda/Acura could get away with being Tier 1 with ILX and Civic, TL & Accord, RDX & CRV, MDX & Pilot all sharing platforms. Hell, they could even offer all of these cars with a FWD option.
However, like many have said, the quality, designs, features, and drive trains need to be different enough to justify the difference.

All of these cars should come with a SH-AWD option and a larger displacement engine than its Honda counterpart. The TL and ILX sharing a platform with the Accord and Civic would allow for those cars to offer coupe options as well just like the Honda cars do.

Also, The RL should have a platform of its own with SHAWD or SHSHAWD and a RWD option and should be the largest (by a good margin) of the Acura vehicles.

I think this is the model H&A should follow while still saving costs on platform sharing

GoHawks

I don't disagree with any of your points, and I too feel that there is nothing wrong with platform sharing. I just think Acura needs to do a better job of differentiating between the Accord and the TL.

Despite the fact that the Camry and ES share a platform, I highly doubt the casual observer would get in an ES and say, "Gee, this looks kinda like a Camry". They really do a nice job of disguising the underlying platform.

I don't think Acura does as well of a job with the Accord and TL.

My focus on the whole platform sharing was trying to prove to a certain poster what EVERYONE knows. From the most elemental point, the Accord and the TL share the same bones (platform). What happens after that should define what makes a Honda a Honda and an Acura an Acura, just as the Lexus experience is much different than that of Toyota.

KeithL

The problem here is those of us here know the differences, but honestly put both cars next to each other and I don't think most people could tell you they look alike, other than Navi placement and similar center stacks.

BDoggPrelude

There is definitely nothing wrong with platform sharing. Car manufacturers have been doing it forever. Could you imagine how much the average automobile would cost if each and every one if them had their own specifically designed chassis? I do think that some companies are better at differentiating between their various cars with shared platforms. GM an Ford are honestly two of the worst offenders. I would consider Acura to be about middle of the road in terms of disguising the their shared platforms.

037

if RLX awd laps faster than a 535xi...is everyone going to forgive all of it's shortcomings?

how would the RLX need to perform to impress?

is it more accurate to compare awd RLX to BMW, Lexus, Infiniti hybrids?

what are we benchmarking against?

KeithL

I do not care what it does on the track, it has to perform for my daily driving and meet my styling and feature requirements. The Hyundai Genesis sedan when it came out had all the promos showing it beat a Porsche and BMW, nice for ads, but does not sway my purchase decision.

037

Let me rephrase the question for those who aren't so interested in lapping/handling numbers.

what would RLX reviewers have to say to make you go out and buy one?

What does the car need to do for it to be a "must buy" for you?

KeithL

Considering the bland styling the RLX has to be a killer interior, ride and pleasure /fun to drive. The more I look at the exterior the more I am backing away from wanting it. The interior is nice and the real thing will be it has to embody the Acura ride, that mix of comfort, handling and feedback. I loved my 4G TL ride, but was tired of looking at it. When I owned my 3G TL Type-S I would get out of car every day at work and look back at the car and oogle at it. My 4G SH-AWD was a great ride, but I never looked at it and said, wow what a good looking car. I have had my M37S for 31 months and almost everyday when I walk away I turn and admire the styling and look. Same goes for the interior, it still makes me smile at what a nice looking car it is (IMO) inside and out, I just miss the ACURA ride, build quality and electronics.

weather

I really hope the RLX will be a success...not in terms of the sales numbers because lets be honest, a flagship is never intended to lead the pack as far as sales revenues, but rather, for the image of the brand. The flagship is like the big brother that you grow up looking up to, the one that inspires confidence in the direction of the brand (design wise and technology features). Although very few people would admit buying a vehicle for what other people think about it, I would argue that in reality, that number is actually higher than most would care to admit. If the perception that Acura was a joke and had no credibility in the automotive world, I doubt that Acura would do well. Luckily (or unfortunately), Acura has a strong parent company with a very strong credibility around the world and this may be partially why people can't seem to separate an Acura from a Honda.

GoHawks

Despite what I have posted here about Acura being confused, RWD, V8, etc....

My issue with the RLX is the exterior styling, it just does nothing for me, it looks like an old man's car. I think the 2nd gen RL had nicer styling. Maybe I'll feel differently once i see it in person.