Rlx awd $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
03-20-2013, 07:12 AM
#121
Burning Brakes
BMW is the one to dethrone, not infiniti or Audi. Although with the rumored 500hp ipl, infiniti might have a shot.
Last edited by g37guy01; 03-20-2013 at 07:18 AM.
03-20-2013, 07:22 AM
#122
Instructor
Honda is doing it right, not only are the positioned to capture the wave of new buyers with different mindsets than the gas-in-their veins enthusiasts, but they are appealing to forward thinkers who appreciate good clean engineering such as expressed in the Sports Hybrid design in the RLX/NSX drivetrains.
I've been lusting after that ever since the DualNote prototype from over a decade ago.
For driving enthusiasts, that is going to be one heck of a combo, just wait and see the reviews and tests when they come out. Anyone who test drove the Accord-based R&D mules a year or two ago were wowed, and Honda always ensures the production product is even better.
I've been lusting after that ever since the DualNote prototype from over a decade ago.
For driving enthusiasts, that is going to be one heck of a combo, just wait and see the reviews and tests when they come out. Anyone who test drove the Accord-based R&D mules a year or two ago were wowed, and Honda always ensures the production product is even better.
03-20-2013, 08:38 AM
#123
Burning Brakes
Magazine reviews do not translate in better sales. If that were so, the mags would be king, they are not.
I think BMW, infiniti, Lexus are all doing what you say honda is doing. I'm lusting after the q50. Although I would like to like Acura products, I'm waiting. I have no such desire to like Cadillac or Audi. I already like BMW, Lexus and Infiniti. And yes, I could see myself driving a lesser model is250h.
I think BMW, infiniti, Lexus are all doing what you say honda is doing. I'm lusting after the q50. Although I would like to like Acura products, I'm waiting. I have no such desire to like Cadillac or Audi. I already like BMW, Lexus and Infiniti. And yes, I could see myself driving a lesser model is250h.
03-20-2013, 09:01 AM
#124
I think they DO MAKE products that 'most' people want. They're called Accord, Civic, CR-V and Odyssey and on a smaller scale, MDX, RDX, TSX and TL.
What they're not doing is making RWD and V-8 that many clamor for here. And I hope they don't do it anytime soon. Acura's "problem" is that when we reach a certain price point, more people say "if I'm paying that much for an Acura, I might as well buy [insert brand]"
Likewise, Hyundai faces a similar problem. If their product gets too expensive, many will say "I'll just buy an Accord/Camry or maybe an Infiniti or Acura". Thus they are forced to offer more 'bang for the buck' to offset the (perceived by some) lack of cache. This is not a criticism, Acura does the same to brands 'above'.
So it's pragmatism. If they were to build the mythical V-8 RWD chassis (or any unique chassis) it would need economies of scale that do not exist. Thus, they'd be forced to leave it in production longer to amortize costs, maybe 10 years (S2000) or 15 years (NSX). THEN the collective 'internet' loses their ever-lovin' mind because they don't "update the car fast enough". It's a catch-22. Anyway, off the soapbox....
What they're not doing is making RWD and V-8 that many clamor for here. And I hope they don't do it anytime soon. Acura's "problem" is that when we reach a certain price point, more people say "if I'm paying that much for an Acura, I might as well buy [insert brand]"
Likewise, Hyundai faces a similar problem. If their product gets too expensive, many will say "I'll just buy an Accord/Camry or maybe an Infiniti or Acura". Thus they are forced to offer more 'bang for the buck' to offset the (perceived by some) lack of cache. This is not a criticism, Acura does the same to brands 'above'.
So it's pragmatism. If they were to build the mythical V-8 RWD chassis (or any unique chassis) it would need economies of scale that do not exist. Thus, they'd be forced to leave it in production longer to amortize costs, maybe 10 years (S2000) or 15 years (NSX). THEN the collective 'internet' loses their ever-lovin' mind because they don't "update the car fast enough". It's a catch-22. Anyway, off the soapbox....
The problem is that Acura's marketing efforts are, at best, bland. They have used RPA for so long as their marketing firm that there is a sense of complacency from their marketing efforts that just feels like they no longer care about attracting new consumers outside of their niche. Combine that with designs that continue to be clean, but unadventurous, and it starts to paint a picture to the average consumer that Acura is dull and boring, even when their driving dynamics continue to be some of the best in the industry (although even that is slipping...seriously, the ILX steering needs a major overhaul).
This is what Acura struggles with the most. The cars are solid, they are competitive in their class, and offer a variety of features that can rarely be rivaled by competitors at the same price. But what BMW and Mercedes have done extraordinarily well is create a lifestyle around their brands. This lifestyle inspires loyalty like no other. Even when their cars have had their faults, the lifestyle continues to strongly attract new buyers and continues to inspire loyalty from those in the fold. Apple and Harley Davidson operate in much the same manner and they both have seem tremendous success at it as well.
Acura simply does not have that kind of marketing prowess. It could be argued that Acura simply does not want to be one of those brands, but that would self deception because everyone wants to be one of those brands. That kind of success is what every brand desires, but not every brand can find the magic combination of understanding, of data, and of product that can create that brand image that is indelible to the consumer. This is where Acura is currently stuck.
03-20-2013, 12:45 PM
#125
You'll Never Walk Alone
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At any rate, I don't think the RLX will sell. It's 50k to 60k for a sedan that (mostly, not direct 1-1) feature set of the Hyundai Genesis, and a badge that is as effective at moving $50,000+ cars as Hyundai's is. Not to mention, nearing 50k will get you a 5.0 L V8 Genesis that will muller every vehicle Honda/Acura makes to 60mph. While I wouldn't get a 46k (realistically, they are moving for 40k) Hyundai, I wouldn't get a dressed up FWD Accord for 50k, either. Even a loaded 3 series would be better, unless if I was ferrying people in the backseat for a living. If that made such a big deal to people in the US, the Audi A4 LWB and BMW 3 series LWB would of been made available in the US (they are in other markets).
Now, that's what I'd called getting owned. How on earth does a car with the highest horsepower, 8AT, lightest curb weight, be that much slower to cars that are heavier and with less power?
Perhaps that's one of the reasons the price tag is much lower?
Not necessarily. Projected sales of a product have to be high enough to justify capital expenditures, especially in an area as capital intensive as auto manufacturing. And that's assuming a company has enough capital to expend in the first place.
Honda is a relatively small, independent company. It isn't owned by a separate European company like Porsche, Nissan or Chrysler. It didn't need US government money to stay afloat like GM or Chrysler (twice). It isn't huge like Toyota or Volkswagen. And its main business is actually motorcycles, not cars. Therefore, they don't have massive resources to work with. They have to work with what they have and choose their battles. If I were them, I wouldn't sink a ton of money into large engines and RWD drive, at least not for the US market. Here is why.
I just read an article in Tuesday's Wall Street Journal stating that women are becoming an increasing majority of licensed drives and trend that will continue for the foreseeable future. Also, among Americans born in the 1980s, more women than men are attaining bachelor's degrees. This means, according to the article that "women are becoming a much more potent force in the car market." According to the article, "women gravitated toward smaller, more fuel-efficient cars than men did." What does that mean? American women apparently don't care about a V8 or V12. So car companies might be prudent to invest in smaller, cheaper, less powerful cars. They should also invest in building a brand with a reputation for reliability.
With that in mind, I think Honda would be wise to not spend too much money on Acura. As someone posted earlier the $1 billion Honda invested in all of Acura is the equivalent of what Toyota invested in one model. For a relatively small car company with relatively little capital selling cars in a shrinking market (larger luxury cars), that might be a good idea.
Honda is a relatively small, independent company. It isn't owned by a separate European company like Porsche, Nissan or Chrysler. It didn't need US government money to stay afloat like GM or Chrysler (twice). It isn't huge like Toyota or Volkswagen. And its main business is actually motorcycles, not cars. Therefore, they don't have massive resources to work with. They have to work with what they have and choose their battles. If I were them, I wouldn't sink a ton of money into large engines and RWD drive, at least not for the US market. Here is why.
I just read an article in Tuesday's Wall Street Journal stating that women are becoming an increasing majority of licensed drives and trend that will continue for the foreseeable future. Also, among Americans born in the 1980s, more women than men are attaining bachelor's degrees. This means, according to the article that "women are becoming a much more potent force in the car market." According to the article, "women gravitated toward smaller, more fuel-efficient cars than men did." What does that mean? American women apparently don't care about a V8 or V12. So car companies might be prudent to invest in smaller, cheaper, less powerful cars. They should also invest in building a brand with a reputation for reliability.
With that in mind, I think Honda would be wise to not spend too much money on Acura. As someone posted earlier the $1 billion Honda invested in all of Acura is the equivalent of what Toyota invested in one model. For a relatively small car company with relatively little capital selling cars in a shrinking market (larger luxury cars), that might be a good idea.
Honda is doing it right, not only are the positioned to capture the wave of new buyers with different mindsets than the gas-in-their veins enthusiasts, but they are appealing to forward thinkers who appreciate good clean engineering such as expressed in the Sports Hybrid design in the RLX/NSX drivetrains.
I've been lusting after that ever since the DualNote prototype from over a decade ago.
For driving enthusiasts, that is going to be one heck of a combo, just wait and see the reviews and tests when they come out. Anyone who test drove the Accord-based R&D mules a year or two ago were wowed, and Honda always ensures the production product is even better.
I've been lusting after that ever since the DualNote prototype from over a decade ago.
For driving enthusiasts, that is going to be one heck of a combo, just wait and see the reviews and tests when they come out. Anyone who test drove the Accord-based R&D mules a year or two ago were wowed, and Honda always ensures the production product is even better.
03-20-2013, 01:01 PM
#126
2G TLX-S
I think they DO MAKE products that 'most' people want. They're called Accord, Civic, CR-V and Odyssey and on a smaller scale, MDX, RDX, TSX and TL.
What they're not doing is making RWD and V-8 that many clamor for here. And I hope they don't do it anytime soon. Acura's "problem" is that when we reach a certain price point, more people say "if I'm paying that much for an Acura, I might as well buy [insert brand]"
Likewise, Hyundai faces a similar problem. If their product gets too expensive, many will say "I'll just buy an Accord/Camry or maybe an Infiniti or Acura". Thus they are forced to offer more 'bang for the buck' to offset the (perceived by some) lack of cache. This is not a criticism, Acura does the same to brands 'above'.
So it's pragmatism. If they were to build the mythical V-8 RWD chassis (or any unique chassis) it would need economies of scale that do not exist. Thus, they'd be forced to leave it in production longer to amortize costs, maybe 10 years (S2000) or 15 years (NSX). THEN the collective 'internet' loses their ever-lovin' mind because they don't "update the car fast enough". It's a catch-22. Anyway, off the soapbox....
What they're not doing is making RWD and V-8 that many clamor for here. And I hope they don't do it anytime soon. Acura's "problem" is that when we reach a certain price point, more people say "if I'm paying that much for an Acura, I might as well buy [insert brand]"
Likewise, Hyundai faces a similar problem. If their product gets too expensive, many will say "I'll just buy an Accord/Camry or maybe an Infiniti or Acura". Thus they are forced to offer more 'bang for the buck' to offset the (perceived by some) lack of cache. This is not a criticism, Acura does the same to brands 'above'.
So it's pragmatism. If they were to build the mythical V-8 RWD chassis (or any unique chassis) it would need economies of scale that do not exist. Thus, they'd be forced to leave it in production longer to amortize costs, maybe 10 years (S2000) or 15 years (NSX). THEN the collective 'internet' loses their ever-lovin' mind because they don't "update the car fast enough". It's a catch-22. Anyway, off the soapbox....
It would definitely be a gamble, because initially the V8 RWD program would be losing big money. But in the end, it would reap in big profits for years to come, as well as firmly established the brand name as another top-tier luxury auto brand. No gamble, no gain, no Tier-1.
When the Lexus V8 RWD LS400 first came out 25 years ago, it carried a bargain price tag at way below the competitors' level. This was how it could attract buyers to buy it, to try it, and eventually to embrace it. Lexus had won it's gamble, and is enjoying the fruits of success.
However, it's all too late now to talk about it. The window of opportunity for V8 RWD premium sedan to gain quick entry into the Tier-1 arena is now long gone. But one can always learn from mistakes and be SMART (pun intended) as in "Smart luxury".
Now back to today. The new and unproven RLX is priced not way below, but right at the competitors' price level. Remember that it's predecessor, the RL, was not being received well by the auto world.
Is this a good move ? Has Acura learned from it's mistakes ? Will history repeat itself ? Only time will tell.
03-20-2013, 04:09 PM
#127
Honestly, Colin, it has nothing to do with the lack of a V8 or RWD platform, at least for me.
Acura simply does not have that kind of marketing prowess. It could be argued that Acura simply does not want to be one of those brands, but that would self deception because everyone wants to be one of those brands.
Acura simply does not have that kind of marketing prowess. It could be argued that Acura simply does not want to be one of those brands, but that would self deception because everyone wants to be one of those brands.
No gamble, no gain, no Tier-1.
Now back to today. The new and unproven RLX is priced not way below, but right at the competitors' price level. Remember that it's predecessor, the RL, was not being received well by the auto world.
These become circular discussions after a while, it's no surprise that with all the threads here, it would take place in one titled $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ LOL. Let me close out my thoughts by saying that what many (appear) to want from the brand will (again IMO) never happen. We'll never see ala carte options, hugely diverse engine choices etc. This simply does not fit with H/A's manufacturing techniques. I suppose they could change their production methods but then they lose the economies of scale and the cars either go up in price or last longer on the shelf. Then we run back into the examples I cited earlier. "if I'm paying this for an Acura ..." or "I won't wait 3 months for a mere Acura...". See? It's a circular path. LOL
03-20-2013, 10:27 PM
#128
2G TLX-S
If Honda had had no intended whatsoever to boot the Acura brand to Tier-1 status, what was the purpose of spending so much resources in developing V8 and RWD chassis ?
Do you really think Honda was stupid enough to throw away precious $$$ and manpower just to produce V8 and RWD for the Acura brand to stay in the lower Tier status ?
There was only one explanation. The V8 and RWD chassis programs were specifically funded in order to facilitate the Acura brand to aim for the Tier-1 status. Only the unfortunate global recession killed off the V8/RWD programs and as a result Honda saw that there was no more hope for the Acura brand to go upscale, then Honda decided to give up completely and let the Acura brand to settle for the "lower-Tier", "Smart Luxury", etc., etc.
As with why almost every discussions all ends up in this "$$$$$$$$$$...." thread, because the RLX pricing is the major stumble block. Just take note of how many different forum members are commenting that the RLX too expensive vs. how many will be buying the RLX because it's a bargain.
Someone selling $60K premium sedans very likely won't share the same point of view with those buying the $60K premium sedans. It is also helpful for auto makers to be in touch with the reality, such as why buyers are staying away from a particular premium sedan.
The RLX is a great car, loaded with SMART features and advance technologies. The only issue is with the MSRP. If only Acura would lower the MSRP to below the competitors' level, I bet the RLX would be selling by the boatloads.
03-20-2013, 11:23 PM
#129
I cannot cite a source but I seem to recall reading some time ago that Honda spends more as a percentage of their overall profits on research then virtually any other car company.
Nobody from Honda actually confirmed they were working on a V8 or rear wheel drive, it was all speculation in the media. However, I am inclined to believe that they were considering such a project. In the end they obviously decided that there was no business case for it.
The argument seems to suggest that all Acuras must sell for less than the competitors because their "only" Acuras. If this is the case, then you cannot develop stand alone chassis and simultaneously undercut the competition. Bringing it back to the circular discussion, it is a chicken and egg dilemma.
Nobody from Honda actually confirmed they were working on a V8 or rear wheel drive, it was all speculation in the media. However, I am inclined to believe that they were considering such a project. In the end they obviously decided that there was no business case for it.
The argument seems to suggest that all Acuras must sell for less than the competitors because their "only" Acuras. If this is the case, then you cannot develop stand alone chassis and simultaneously undercut the competition. Bringing it back to the circular discussion, it is a chicken and egg dilemma.
03-21-2013, 01:51 AM
#130
2G TLX-S
Below are some of the many better sources about Honda CEO Takeo Fukui talking about the V8 program, and also about Honda CEO Takanobu Ito talking about cancelling the program.
But I guess one can also argue that all of these writers fabricate everything Mr. Fukui and Mr. Ito said about the Honda V8 and RWD programs.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/honda-ce...for-acura.html
http://www.motoring.com.au/news/2008...da-legend-7260
http://wardsauto.com/news-amp-analys...us-without-rwd
But I guess one can also argue that all of these writers fabricate everything Mr. Fukui and Mr. Ito said about the Honda V8 and RWD programs.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/honda-ce...for-acura.html
Honda CEO confirms V8 for Acura
By Andrew Ganz
Monday, Oct 20th, 2008 @ 8:52 am
Honda Motor Company CEO Takeo Fukui confirmed the numerous rumors that the automaker's luxury unit, Acura, would be getting an eight cylinder powerplant in the near future. Fukui said that the engine will pump up the RL, Acura's largest sedan, to make it more competitive in its segment. The RL currently offers a 3.7 liter V6, but it competes against cars that offer a V8 option.
Speaking to Automotive News, Fukui said, "I don't think that the Acura RL 3.7-liter is sufficient. We can't compete with other premium brands."
He said that the V8 engine will "be completely different from conventional, past-generation ones and have excellent fuel efficiency."
It's likely that the V8 would also see its way into the TL, which offers a choice of V6 engines. It wouldn't surprise us to see the V8 appear in Honda products, particularly the Pilot and Ridgeline, though higher gas prices that have been turning buyers away from thirsty SUVs and pickups could negate any need for a Honda V8.
By Andrew Ganz
Monday, Oct 20th, 2008 @ 8:52 am
Honda Motor Company CEO Takeo Fukui confirmed the numerous rumors that the automaker's luxury unit, Acura, would be getting an eight cylinder powerplant in the near future. Fukui said that the engine will pump up the RL, Acura's largest sedan, to make it more competitive in its segment. The RL currently offers a 3.7 liter V6, but it competes against cars that offer a V8 option.
Speaking to Automotive News, Fukui said, "I don't think that the Acura RL 3.7-liter is sufficient. We can't compete with other premium brands."
He said that the V8 engine will "be completely different from conventional, past-generation ones and have excellent fuel efficiency."
It's likely that the V8 would also see its way into the TL, which offers a choice of V6 engines. It wouldn't surprise us to see the V8 appear in Honda products, particularly the Pilot and Ridgeline, though higher gas prices that have been turning buyers away from thirsty SUVs and pickups could negate any need for a Honda V8.
V8 power for Honda Legend?
Is Honda honing V8 power for its range-topping models?
Honda boss Takeo Fukui has confirmed that the Japanese carmaker is developing engines of capacity and cylinder count beyond its current V6 range-toppers. The engines it seems engine are destined for flagship models aimed at keeping pace with the likes of Lexus and Infiniti.
The company's current range-topper, sold here as the Honda Legend (pictured), but badged in the US as the Acura RL, currently uses a 3.7-litre V6 with outputs of 226kW and 370Nm. However, Fukui told respected US industry journal Automotive News: "I don't think that the Acura RL 3.7-litre is sufficient. We can't compete with other premium brands."
Acura is positioned in the US as luxury brand -- think of it as Honda's version of Lexus or Infiniti, but it doesn't enjoy anywhere near the same market shares as the latter two in the premium echelons.
Hence the desire to bolster the luxo credentials of the RL (read: Legend) via engines bigger than the V6.
US sources have hinted that the engine will be a V8 of around 4.8-litres and pumping out around 315kW. There's even suggestions details of the engine could be revealed as early as this year's Los Angeles motor show (which starts on November 21).
But the cylinder count flies in the face of the comments made to the Carsales Network last month by Honda Motor board member, President and CEO of Asian Honda Motor Company and COO Regional Operations (Asia & Oceania), Fumihiko Ike.
Speaking in Thailand, Ike-san was frank on the company's concerns about the Acura brand (more here), backing up Fukui's statements, but pouring water on the V8 story.
"Acura has been struggling [in the US] in a sense... Because we started not high-end, but near-Luxury simply because our engine was only V6 -- no V8; and no rear-wheel drive," Ike said.
"So from the very beginning our segment is rather limited -- we're not getting to the high-end luxury like a V8, V10 [or] V12
On the question on whether Honda would build a V8 to grow the Acura business and brand, he replied: "At this moment no... We have no plan [for a V8] yet... Instead of a V8 we will bring in [a] V10... In two years time -- the next NSX..."
Is Honda honing V8 power for its range-topping models?
Honda boss Takeo Fukui has confirmed that the Japanese carmaker is developing engines of capacity and cylinder count beyond its current V6 range-toppers. The engines it seems engine are destined for flagship models aimed at keeping pace with the likes of Lexus and Infiniti.
The company's current range-topper, sold here as the Honda Legend (pictured), but badged in the US as the Acura RL, currently uses a 3.7-litre V6 with outputs of 226kW and 370Nm. However, Fukui told respected US industry journal Automotive News: "I don't think that the Acura RL 3.7-litre is sufficient. We can't compete with other premium brands."
Acura is positioned in the US as luxury brand -- think of it as Honda's version of Lexus or Infiniti, but it doesn't enjoy anywhere near the same market shares as the latter two in the premium echelons.
Hence the desire to bolster the luxo credentials of the RL (read: Legend) via engines bigger than the V6.
US sources have hinted that the engine will be a V8 of around 4.8-litres and pumping out around 315kW. There's even suggestions details of the engine could be revealed as early as this year's Los Angeles motor show (which starts on November 21).
But the cylinder count flies in the face of the comments made to the Carsales Network last month by Honda Motor board member, President and CEO of Asian Honda Motor Company and COO Regional Operations (Asia & Oceania), Fumihiko Ike.
Speaking in Thailand, Ike-san was frank on the company's concerns about the Acura brand (more here), backing up Fukui's statements, but pouring water on the V8 story.
"Acura has been struggling [in the US] in a sense... Because we started not high-end, but near-Luxury simply because our engine was only V6 -- no V8; and no rear-wheel drive," Ike said.
"So from the very beginning our segment is rather limited -- we're not getting to the high-end luxury like a V8, V10 [or] V12
On the question on whether Honda would build a V8 to grow the Acura business and brand, he replied: "At this moment no... We have no plan [for a V8] yet... Instead of a V8 we will bring in [a] V10... In two years time -- the next NSX..."
Acura Says Can Achieve Tier-1 Status Without RWD
By Christie Schweinsberg
WardsAuto.com, Jul 29, 2009 3:25 PM
ROCHESTER, MI – Despite buzz from Japan that Honda Motor Co. Ltd. has shelved development of a rear-wheel-drive platform for its Acura luxury brand, a U.S. Acura official remains confident.
“Can we compete with (first-tier luxury) brands Mercedes, Lexus and BMW without RWD? Yes,” Gary Robinson, assistant manager-Acura product planning, tells Ward’s Tuesday during an Acura media event.
Robinson does not discuss the program’s cancellation, but new Honda CEO Takanobu Ito rocked the Acura faithful last week when he reportedly announced work had been halted on a RWD initiative.
Analysts and industry watchers blame Acura’s prolonged near-luxury status on its lack of RWD platforms and V-8 engines.
“It would be meaningless to emulate what other companies have been doing for more than five decades,” Ito reportedly said of nixing RWD and a V-8. Development of the latter had been championed by former Honda CEO Takeo Fukui.
“Just when it seems like things were looking up for Acura…the news has been steadily getting worse for the past six months or so,” Jeff Palmer, founder of the enthusiast website Temple of VTEC, says in a posted response to Ito.
“The cumulative effect of this series of blows is taking its toll on Acura's brand credibility amongst enthusiasts, which arguably drive a brand's overall image.”
Robinson says Ito’s remarks were not defeatist in any way, just his way of saying Acura wants to carve out its own version of luxury instead of following competitors.
Acura TSX V-6 variant signals brand strategy.
“I don’t think Ito-san said anything that stood out in one way or another for us, because I think we’re all pretty clear on what the direction for Acura is,” Robinson says, adding Honda founder Soichiro Honda pioneered this sort of thinking.
“His thing was about being a renegade and doing things his own way and trying to figure out what was the right thing for the market and the right thing for the customer… not just copying other people,” he says.
“So, at Acura, that’s definitely something we’ve been thinking about a lot. What does it mean to make an Acura luxury car? You shouldn’t be like everybody else. We don’t want to be another Lexus; we don’t want to be another BMW; we don’t want to be another Mercedes.
“We want somebody who’s shopping those cars to think of us in the same breath, and we want them to have a reason for buying our car that’s different.”
Robinson is fuzzy about Acura’s brand direction but says boosting fuel economy is a major focus, noting any technology that improves fuel economy is “something we’re going to be looking at.”
Those technologies include direct injection, cylinder deactivation, hybrid-electric vehicles and the possible migration of the 2.3L turbocharged 4-cyl. in the RDX small cross/utility vehicle to other Acura models.
Expanding the engine’s use is “another one of those things we’re looking at as an option to improve fuel economy and another one that has the potential to offer both fuel economy and power,” Robinson says.
Direct injection, while enabling more efficient combustion, has downsides such as added cost and noise, he says. A nearer-term fuel-economy solution is Acura’s first 6-speed automatic transmission, rolling out in the ’10 MDX CUV, as well as the new ’10 ZDX 4-door sports coupe, later this year.
Compared with the ’09 MDX, which mated a 3.7L V-6 engine to a 5-speed automatic transmission, the ’10 MDX’s fuel-economy rating is expected to improve by 1 mpg (0.4 km/L) in both city and highway driving to 16-21 mpg (14.7-11.2 L/100 km) city/highway.
The 6-speed transmission eventually will make its way into other Acura models, Robinson says. Near-term it also is set to power the ZDX.
Despite Acura’s fuel-economy aspirations, don’t expect a diesel engine from the brand. Honda says the 4-cyl. i-DTEC turbodiesel mill, a version of which powers the European Honda Accord, sold as the TSX in the U.S., is delayed.
By Christie Schweinsberg
WardsAuto.com, Jul 29, 2009 3:25 PM
ROCHESTER, MI – Despite buzz from Japan that Honda Motor Co. Ltd. has shelved development of a rear-wheel-drive platform for its Acura luxury brand, a U.S. Acura official remains confident.
“Can we compete with (first-tier luxury) brands Mercedes, Lexus and BMW without RWD? Yes,” Gary Robinson, assistant manager-Acura product planning, tells Ward’s Tuesday during an Acura media event.
Robinson does not discuss the program’s cancellation, but new Honda CEO Takanobu Ito rocked the Acura faithful last week when he reportedly announced work had been halted on a RWD initiative.
Analysts and industry watchers blame Acura’s prolonged near-luxury status on its lack of RWD platforms and V-8 engines.
“It would be meaningless to emulate what other companies have been doing for more than five decades,” Ito reportedly said of nixing RWD and a V-8. Development of the latter had been championed by former Honda CEO Takeo Fukui.
“Just when it seems like things were looking up for Acura…the news has been steadily getting worse for the past six months or so,” Jeff Palmer, founder of the enthusiast website Temple of VTEC, says in a posted response to Ito.
“The cumulative effect of this series of blows is taking its toll on Acura's brand credibility amongst enthusiasts, which arguably drive a brand's overall image.”
Robinson says Ito’s remarks were not defeatist in any way, just his way of saying Acura wants to carve out its own version of luxury instead of following competitors.
Acura TSX V-6 variant signals brand strategy.
“I don’t think Ito-san said anything that stood out in one way or another for us, because I think we’re all pretty clear on what the direction for Acura is,” Robinson says, adding Honda founder Soichiro Honda pioneered this sort of thinking.
“His thing was about being a renegade and doing things his own way and trying to figure out what was the right thing for the market and the right thing for the customer… not just copying other people,” he says.
“So, at Acura, that’s definitely something we’ve been thinking about a lot. What does it mean to make an Acura luxury car? You shouldn’t be like everybody else. We don’t want to be another Lexus; we don’t want to be another BMW; we don’t want to be another Mercedes.
“We want somebody who’s shopping those cars to think of us in the same breath, and we want them to have a reason for buying our car that’s different.”
Robinson is fuzzy about Acura’s brand direction but says boosting fuel economy is a major focus, noting any technology that improves fuel economy is “something we’re going to be looking at.”
Those technologies include direct injection, cylinder deactivation, hybrid-electric vehicles and the possible migration of the 2.3L turbocharged 4-cyl. in the RDX small cross/utility vehicle to other Acura models.
Expanding the engine’s use is “another one of those things we’re looking at as an option to improve fuel economy and another one that has the potential to offer both fuel economy and power,” Robinson says.
Direct injection, while enabling more efficient combustion, has downsides such as added cost and noise, he says. A nearer-term fuel-economy solution is Acura’s first 6-speed automatic transmission, rolling out in the ’10 MDX CUV, as well as the new ’10 ZDX 4-door sports coupe, later this year.
Compared with the ’09 MDX, which mated a 3.7L V-6 engine to a 5-speed automatic transmission, the ’10 MDX’s fuel-economy rating is expected to improve by 1 mpg (0.4 km/L) in both city and highway driving to 16-21 mpg (14.7-11.2 L/100 km) city/highway.
The 6-speed transmission eventually will make its way into other Acura models, Robinson says. Near-term it also is set to power the ZDX.
Despite Acura’s fuel-economy aspirations, don’t expect a diesel engine from the brand. Honda says the 4-cyl. i-DTEC turbodiesel mill, a version of which powers the European Honda Accord, sold as the TSX in the U.S., is delayed.
03-21-2013, 02:22 AM
#131
I stand corrected. I still contend that as a research company they cook all kinds of things that don't get greenlit for production. It's obvious that there is no business case for this otherwise they would have done it. Right? Do you think they decided to cancel these programs just to piss people off?
03-21-2013, 02:25 AM
#132
2G TLX-S
The argument seems to suggest that all Acuras must sell for less than the competitors because their "only" Acuras. If this is the case, then you cannot develop stand alone chassis and simultaneously undercut the competition. Bringing it back to the circular discussion, it is a chicken and egg dilemma.
But is it the right thing to do just sitting there, doing nothing, and let it continue to go around and around, forever ?
Or is it better to break this vicious cycle by start doing something constructive, such as selling for less, making more sales, acquiring more exposure, gaining more popularity and praises, building up the solid premium image, and finally raising the price SLOWLY.
Nothing comes free, so expect a loss initially.
First, you build a standalone chassis and also undercut the competitors. Undercutting is the only way to attract buyers into buying your unproven products. But after they have bought and tried out your superior products, they realize and appreciate how good they are. Over time, your products become popular, become highly rated, and become highly sought after. Then you can start raising the price slowly, and the premium image will also increase slowly but promptly. Eventually, you'll have your highly popular premium products, selling at a premium pricing.
It can't be done the other way around. You can't just raise the price 1st, and expect all the good things to come following later.
The Acura TL is already selling for less than the competitors because their "only" Acuras. Size-wise, the TL is in a similar size class as the A6, 5-series, GS, and E-class sedans. However, price-wise and class-wise, the TL is competing with the smaller-sized A4, 3-series, IS, and C-class sedans.
This is what makes the TL premium sedan so popular, even with the questionable exterior styling that has already put off a lot of potential buyers.
03-21-2013, 04:14 AM
#133
We agree on the basics, but seem to disagree on the conclusion. You (appear) to want them to move upward. I want them to move (in a sense) backwards. I want fewer trims, more fully loaded cars, and a simpler product matrix (ala 2006, Acura's best year). I'd be willing to give up trim levels to add models (a coupe maybe?). And yes, I fully accept that they'll all be built of common chassis'.
In my experience, we lose customers as they move through the line as their incomes grow. Now they can afford to buy [insert brand] that they always wanted. IMO, I'm fine with that because no matter what we do, many will leave anyway. Just improve the steps to replace them with younger buyers who will be the loyal buyers as they move up the ladder. These are the guys that will buy the next 4-5 cars before moving on.
03-21-2013, 08:32 AM
#134
In my experience, we lose customers as they move through the line as their incomes grow. Now they can afford to buy [insert brand] that they always wanted. IMO, I'm fine with that because no matter what we do, many will leave anyway. Just improve the steps to replace them with younger buyers who will be the loyal buyers as they move up the ladder. These are the guys that will buy the next 4-5 cars before moving on.
03-21-2013, 12:46 PM
#135
^^ Just to be 100% clear, I'm not speaking for Acura. I don't pretend to know what goes on in the back rooms of the corporate boardroom. I am only speaking from what I've observed from 16 years in this business (more if you count my observation of my fathers 30 years in the business)
The fact of the matter is that people's wants and needs change as they move through the different stages in their life. (IMO) this is one of the reasons why our SUV line is so popular. These people have moved through the inexpensive Integra phase, CL coupe phase, to needing a larger vehicle for a family.
CGTSX, I don't believe they are purposely trying to deprecate their customer base. Just that within the framework of how they are going to build cars, some of these people will leave the brand. And it's quite possible that they have reconciled this in their own mind? Heck, I've lost several customers to old age this year alone!
Again, IMO, it boils down to this. They built a better car in every way over its predecessor with the exception of all wheel drive (For those that need it). Yes, it costs more than the original RL did back in 2005. But everything costs more than it did in 2005. Just for grins I went searching for an on line inflation calculator. I found one that says if you paid $49,000 (tech package RL) in 2006, then in 2013 it would cost $56,544.
It is what it is guys, for some people it will be worth the money, for others it's just an expensive Accord.
The fact of the matter is that people's wants and needs change as they move through the different stages in their life. (IMO) this is one of the reasons why our SUV line is so popular. These people have moved through the inexpensive Integra phase, CL coupe phase, to needing a larger vehicle for a family.
CGTSX, I don't believe they are purposely trying to deprecate their customer base. Just that within the framework of how they are going to build cars, some of these people will leave the brand. And it's quite possible that they have reconciled this in their own mind? Heck, I've lost several customers to old age this year alone!
Again, IMO, it boils down to this. They built a better car in every way over its predecessor with the exception of all wheel drive (For those that need it). Yes, it costs more than the original RL did back in 2005. But everything costs more than it did in 2005. Just for grins I went searching for an on line inflation calculator. I found one that says if you paid $49,000 (tech package RL) in 2006, then in 2013 it would cost $56,544.
It is what it is guys, for some people it will be worth the money, for others it's just an expensive Accord.
03-21-2013, 09:45 PM
#136
2G TLX-S
We agree on the basics, but seem to disagree on the conclusion. You (appear) to want them to move upward. I want them to move (in a sense) backwards. I want fewer trims, more fully loaded cars, and a simpler product matrix (ala 2006, Acura's best year). I'd be willing to give up trim levels to add models (a coupe maybe?). And yes, I fully accept that they'll all be built of common chassis'.
I wish that the day will come when my Acura sedan, parked on my driveway, will attain the same status and admiration, as all those BMW's and MB's parked outside others' houses.
Maybe I'm just trying too hard, pointing out some of the shortcomings that will put off most potential $50+K sedan buyers, and offering suggestions that will help Acura to achieve it's goals.
I shopped but didn't buy the 2G RL eight year ago for the exact reasons that I have said earlier in here and in other RLX threads, and I'll be planning to shop for another RLX/A6/5-series/GS/E-class class sedan 2-3 years from now when my other car's 10-year extended warranty will begin to expire.
That's why I'm so eager to wanting the Acura brand and the RLX flagship to head in the right direction, because I hate to have to pass it over one more time.
03-22-2013, 01:10 AM
#137
^^ That's fair enough but I think we need to be realistic. They are never going to get where you want them to go.
03-22-2013, 06:44 AM
#138
Suzuka Master
Ditto, Acura will never have the same status as MB/BMW, etc. And I think that is fine, their mission is not status it is value luxury. If they had the same status they would charge the same prices and thus the value would be gone.
03-22-2013, 07:33 AM
#139
Instructor
^^^ Agreed, and I'm one of those who prefers the good value along with the less pretentious 'status'.
I see Acura owners as smart and pragmatic, not status seekers.
Even though I'm a dyed-in-wool car nut, I refuse to own a BMW primarily because of this silly 'status' thing. Plus, there are some advantages to 'stealth wealth'. Having grown up in foreign countries, I know precisely how that 'status car' can work against you.
I see Acura owners as smart and pragmatic, not status seekers.
Even though I'm a dyed-in-wool car nut, I refuse to own a BMW primarily because of this silly 'status' thing. Plus, there are some advantages to 'stealth wealth'. Having grown up in foreign countries, I know precisely how that 'status car' can work against you.
Last edited by JonFo; 03-22-2013 at 07:36 AM.
03-22-2013, 09:53 AM
#140
Burning Brakes
^^^ Agreed, and I'm one of those who prefers the good value along with the less pretentious 'status'.
I see Acura owners as smart and pragmatic, not status seekers.
Even though I'm a dyed-in-wool car nut, I refuse to own a BMW primarily because of this silly 'status' thing. Plus, there are some advantages to 'stealth wealth'. Having grown up in foreign countries, I know precisely how that 'status car' can work against you.
I see Acura owners as smart and pragmatic, not status seekers.
Even though I'm a dyed-in-wool car nut, I refuse to own a BMW primarily because of this silly 'status' thing. Plus, there are some advantages to 'stealth wealth'. Having grown up in foreign countries, I know precisely how that 'status car' can work against you.
03-22-2013, 11:33 AM
#141
Suzuka Master
^^^ Agreed, and I'm one of those who prefers the good value along with the less pretentious 'status'.
I see Acura owners as smart and pragmatic, not status seekers.
Even though I'm a dyed-in-wool car nut, I refuse to own a BMW primarily because of this silly 'status' thing. Plus, there are some advantages to 'stealth wealth'. Having grown up in foreign countries, I know precisely how that 'status car' can work against you.
I see Acura owners as smart and pragmatic, not status seekers.
Even though I'm a dyed-in-wool car nut, I refuse to own a BMW primarily because of this silly 'status' thing. Plus, there are some advantages to 'stealth wealth'. Having grown up in foreign countries, I know precisely how that 'status car' can work against you.
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jhr3uva90 (03-22-2013)
03-22-2013, 12:35 PM
#142
Three Wheelin'
^^^I totally agree with KeithL
03-22-2013, 03:28 PM
#143
Old Member
03-22-2013, 09:36 PM
#144
2G TLX-S
Over the years, you must have heard a lot of potential RL buyers' comments when they came to your dealership and checked out the RL sedans, but walked out empty-handed.
Using your expertise knowledge in selling cars, do you think customers' perception to the Acura brand will differ now, such that Acura is able to sell the $50-$65K RLX this time around, when the $50+K RL has failed miserably ?
Keep in mind that when the RLX has improved, it's competitors also have improved over the years.
03-23-2013, 12:07 AM
#145
Three Wheelin'
To start off with, the Acura dealership experience has generally NOT improved over the years. For example, I like the service department at Oakland Acura, but I don't know if I would buy a car from them. The sales people tend to be tacky, and if they wear slacks and a tie (IF), their clothes are cheap. They hardly know the products they are selling, especially a car as high tech as the RL/RLX. It seems to me that the sales folks there should be selling Honda Civics instead.
And I have had similar experiences at other dealerships on both sides of the USA. It's a shame, really. Meanwhile, Lexus sales people tend to generally be more up to snuff.
And I have had similar experiences at other dealerships on both sides of the USA. It's a shame, really. Meanwhile, Lexus sales people tend to generally be more up to snuff.
03-23-2013, 12:57 AM
#146
Senior Moderator
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Nothing official, but the various test mules had V-8's (based upon the sounds they made) and the stretched S2000 test mule shows they were planning on V-8 with RWD in some sort of application.
03-23-2013, 09:02 AM
#147
Here is one problem for Acura about the rave reviews the 60K 300 SRT8 is getting - "Rave reviews also may not be enough to help elevate the Chrysler brand in the eyes of potential luxury buyers. While 90 percent of the performance for half the price indicates a good bargain, that isn’t what drives the luxury market, Toprak said.
“On paper, it’s a far better choice,” Toprak said. “But that’s not what luxury is about. It won’t matter if you compare features and benefits of the 300 or the Benz. Most luxury buyers won’t listen, because most won’t want to be seen in the 300.”
http://washpost.bloomberg.com/Story?...H3CCQHUNM33EVH
“On paper, it’s a far better choice,” Toprak said. “But that’s not what luxury is about. It won’t matter if you compare features and benefits of the 300 or the Benz. Most luxury buyers won’t listen, because most won’t want to be seen in the 300.”
http://washpost.bloomberg.com/Story?...H3CCQHUNM33EVH
03-23-2013, 09:41 AM
#148
Drifting
To start off with, the Acura dealership experience has generally NOT improved over the years. For example, I like the service department at Oakland Acura, but I don't know if I would buy a car from them. The sales people tend to be tacky, and if they wear slacks and a tie (IF), their clothes are cheap. They hardly know the products they are selling, especially a car as high tech as the RL/RLX. It seems to me that the sales folks there should be selling Honda Civics instead.
And I have had similar experiences at other dealerships on both sides of the USA. It's a shame, really. Meanwhile, Lexus sales people tend to generally be more up to snuff.
And I have had similar experiences at other dealerships on both sides of the USA. It's a shame, really. Meanwhile, Lexus sales people tend to generally be more up to snuff.
Interestingly, the owner of my dealership has both Lexus and Acura dealerships. His choice of a personal vehicle? TL-AWD.
03-23-2013, 09:43 AM
#149
Drifting
Here is one problem for Acura about the rave reviews the 60K 300 SRT8 is getting - "Rave reviews also may not be enough to help elevate the Chrysler brand in the eyes of potential luxury buyers. While 90 percent of the performance for half the price indicates a good bargain, that isn’t what drives the luxury market, Toprak said.
“On paper, it’s a far better choice,” Toprak said. “But that’s not what luxury is about. It won’t matter if you compare features and benefits of the 300 or the Benz. Most luxury buyers won’t listen, because most won’t want to be seen in the 300.”
http://washpost.bloomberg.com/Story?...H3CCQHUNM33EVH
“On paper, it’s a far better choice,” Toprak said. “But that’s not what luxury is about. It won’t matter if you compare features and benefits of the 300 or the Benz. Most luxury buyers won’t listen, because most won’t want to be seen in the 300.”
http://washpost.bloomberg.com/Story?...H3CCQHUNM33EVH
03-23-2013, 10:12 AM
#150
Burning Brakes
They do, I've seen it mentioned several times in the various financial papers.
Nothing official, but the various test mules had V-8's (based upon the sounds they made) and the stretched S2000 test mule shows they were planning on V-8 with RWD in some sort of application.
Nothing official, but the various test mules had V-8's (based upon the sounds they made) and the stretched S2000 test mule shows they were planning on V-8 with RWD in some sort of application.
03-23-2013, 10:18 AM
#151
Burning Brakes
Here is one problem for Acura about the rave reviews the 60K 300 SRT8 is getting - "Rave reviews also may not be enough to help elevate the Chrysler brand in the eyes of potential luxury buyers. While 90 percent of the performance for half the price indicates a good bargain, that isn’t what drives the luxury market, Toprak said.
“On paper, it’s a far better choice,” Toprak said. “But that’s not what luxury is about. It won’t matter if you compare features and benefits of the 300 or the Benz. Most luxury buyers won’t listen, because most won’t want to be seen in the 300.”
http://washpost.bloomberg.com/Story?...H3CCQHUNM33EVH
“On paper, it’s a far better choice,” Toprak said. “But that’s not what luxury is about. It won’t matter if you compare features and benefits of the 300 or the Benz. Most luxury buyers won’t listen, because most won’t want to be seen in the 300.”
http://washpost.bloomberg.com/Story?...H3CCQHUNM33EVH
On paper, any car other than a 10 year old Elantra looks bad. Sitting down with two lists comparing them blindly, side by side is not what drives the car market. Bluetooth, check; 400 hp; check, LED headlights; check. If paper comparisons and value per dollar drove the car market, Hyundai would own the world..but they don't. Therefore the information in the article shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
03-23-2013, 12:50 PM
#152
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03-23-2013, 08:40 PM
#153
random info ahead:
I went to an Acura stealership in Brooklyn and asked to test drive the RLX, I was told that the only way to do that is to bargain on the price, get all the paperwork ready and I can drive it the moment before signing the paperwork, after 30 minutes I talked him into just letting me drive it and then...he couldn't find the fob!
An employee took it home accidentally, it was stupid.
While they were looking, I did notice CMBS sensor was moved off the nose...I could not find where they put it. Colin, where did they put it? and why did they hide a status symbol...was the easiest way to tell if RL was fully loaded. I did confirm that car had a CMBS button as the thought crossed my mind the car had the wrong sticker on it.
I went to an Acura stealership in Brooklyn and asked to test drive the RLX, I was told that the only way to do that is to bargain on the price, get all the paperwork ready and I can drive it the moment before signing the paperwork, after 30 minutes I talked him into just letting me drive it and then...he couldn't find the fob!
An employee took it home accidentally, it was stupid.
While they were looking, I did notice CMBS sensor was moved off the nose...I could not find where they put it. Colin, where did they put it? and why did they hide a status symbol...was the easiest way to tell if RL was fully loaded. I did confirm that car had a CMBS button as the thought crossed my mind the car had the wrong sticker on it.
03-23-2013, 08:48 PM
#154
wow -that is real BS about having to get to a deal before test drive
I was at the Dealer and they were practically beggin me to test drive one. Granted, it was during the day and hardly anyone there.
I was at the Dealer and they were practically beggin me to test drive one. Granted, it was during the day and hardly anyone there.
03-23-2013, 09:02 PM
#155
The sales person did display the ALG #1 award print out for resale value as a brand...then again the values were projected. I think Honda would beat Acura any day on ALG.
03-23-2013, 11:24 PM
#156
True, those that don;t want many things will not like the Honda/Acura trim levels, but unless you want to order a car and wait a few months trying to ever find a MB/BMW optioned to your exact liking is usually tough. I looked several times and MB and BMW and every time I spent hours either on dealers web site or walking a lot and could never find a car equipped near what I want. Problem here is some basic things are single line items, Bluetooth, heated seats, HID lights, Sat Radio and on and on. Many people will "impulse" buy which is not to say they will not be rational, but to say when they want a car they want it, so they do not want to wait 2-4 months for an ordered car. Pretty much my issue right now. I was considering getting another M37 if I could find an M37 Sport with Technology, but they are rare and I do not want to order so I just postponed the purchase and will look at maybe an Audi or SH-AWD 4G (since they are such deals right now).
2-3 Weeks week for a BMW X3 or X5- built in South Carolina- they are amazingly quick with a custom order.
If you want the G37 you can buy a brand new leftover for thousands of dollars under invoice. If you like technology, wait for the Q50 which replaces the G37 this Summer. On paper it sounds awesome.
Test drove the PAWS Acura RLX with Advance Package. Some fantastic technology- please check out my other posting if interested.
03-23-2013, 11:32 PM
#157
Good points Edward! I'm interested in the AWD Technology package version of the RLX and would like "some" of the options available from the Advanced version. Don't need the Krell system, Parking sensors (2 front/4 rear), Ventilated front seats, Heated rear seats, Rear seat foot light but do find the Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) with Low-Speed Follow, Collision Mitigation Braking System (CMBS), Lane Keeping Assist System (LKAS), Auto-dimming side mirror, Expanded rear door sunshade, and Power operated rear window sunshade desirable - But most of all I want the "performance", whatever that'll be, of the SH-SH AWD RLX - but it better be very, very, good...
I, like you, will wait to see the AWD RLX version. I care about better gas mileage, and better handling the PAWS RLX doesn't compare to the GS-350 F Sport or 5 Series BMW. I care about performance too.
03-23-2013, 11:38 PM
#158
Yes - an RLX without luxury amenities is not a luxury car nor is a BMW.
Yes - a badge buyer puts his ego before his brain and jealousy could only be considered if the RLX was for sale or if I even wanted a BMW.
Most people who bought an RL new, probably considered the BMW but moved in the Acura direction mainly because you get more luxury for less money and you can drive it instead of look at it in the shop. Initial cost is higher and reliability of a BMW is lower but the badge impresses. The only people who would buy a BMW are either buying it for the badge or (2%) buying it because of its driving attributes.
Yes - a badge buyer puts his ego before his brain and jealousy could only be considered if the RLX was for sale or if I even wanted a BMW.
Most people who bought an RL new, probably considered the BMW but moved in the Acura direction mainly because you get more luxury for less money and you can drive it instead of look at it in the shop. Initial cost is higher and reliability of a BMW is lower but the badge impresses. The only people who would buy a BMW are either buying it for the badge or (2%) buying it because of its driving attributes.
Love Acuras- bought 3 in a row. Very well made and my RL still has fun technology that many others don't. I need AWD in New Jersey and will see how that RLX drives in the Fall.
03-24-2013, 08:47 AM
#159
2012 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe
^^^ Agreed, and I'm one of those who prefers the good value along with the less pretentious 'status'.
I see Acura owners as smart and pragmatic, not status seekers.
Even though I'm a dyed-in-wool car nut, I refuse to own a BMW primarily because of this silly 'status' thing. Plus, there are some advantages to 'stealth wealth'. Having grown up in foreign countries, I know precisely how that 'status car' can work against you.
I see Acura owners as smart and pragmatic, not status seekers.
Even though I'm a dyed-in-wool car nut, I refuse to own a BMW primarily because of this silly 'status' thing. Plus, there are some advantages to 'stealth wealth'. Having grown up in foreign countries, I know precisely how that 'status car' can work against you.
I have often seen the comment here generalizing that BMW owners are ONLY looking for status and i have also seen it on the Cadillac forums that I frequent (I own a 2012 CTS).
We bought our first BMW last year. It was a CPO 2011 BMW X5 that was a replacement for my wife's 2004 Toyota Landcruiser that she drove for 9 years and 160K miles.
We looked at A LOT of SUVs before buying the X5:
Acura MDX - wife didn't like the interior and felt it looked a bit cheap
Lexus GX - dated looking, looked too much like our old Landcruiser
Mercedes ML - Nice enough, but just didn't feel it.
CPO Mercedes GL - Stongly considered this, but despite being a CPO, was a little older than we wanted
CPO Range Rover - Gorgeous vehicle, absolutely beautiful, and this was what my wife REALLY wanted, but I was scared to death of the reliability and it was crazy expensive
Audi Q7 and Q5 - like the ML, nice enough, but she wasn't "feeling" it . She thought the interiors looked a bit plain.
Cadillac SRX - the look just didn't do it for her
Used Escalades and Navigators - again, the interiors to here were OK. She also hates the column shifter. She thought the interiors of Navigators were especially plain.
Believe it or not she went with the X5 because she happened to see one with a specific interior color combination that she LOVED. Other X5s we looked at would would have received any of the comments I mentioned above. So it is entirely possible that we could have purchased a ny of those above brands if we saw a different color combination, with the exception of the Range Rover and the Mercedes GL.
Now after owning the X5, I will say that the performance aspect of BMWs isn't all hype. The X5, even being an SUV (BMW calls them SAVs for Sport Activity Vehicles) is a blast to drive. It's rivals the handling and performance of many cars I have driven in my life. It has a strong, flat torque curve (turbo I6) and I truly believe they understate their HP numbers. They state 300 HP and my CTS has 318 and the RL had 290 and my seat of the pants comparison is that the X5 blows all of them away. To be fair though the D5 has 300 ft/lbs torque where the Caddy has 275 and I think the RL was in the same ball park.
They have improved iDrive, but I still think Acura did the best job of taking the iDrive concept of having a controller knob and improving on it. Interior is actually not as cheap looking as I have heard people say in the past, but I think a lot depends on the interior color combinations.
I won't speak to value. I am coming from a different perspective since I bought a 2011. It had 31K and I paid $45K for it. It had an MSRP of well over $64K when it was new. I might have had a different perspective if I paid anywhere close to that.
Reliability and maintenance hasn't been an issue so far. Since September I have out 8K miles on her and haven't had to make one dealer visit yet. Maintenance, even things like brakes are free up until 50k miles. The car is warranted until 100K or June of 2016, whichever comes first.
There are a few quirks that are more of how the Germans do things, like only one central lock/unlock button on the das as opposed to a button on each front door like God intended. You have to double pull the interior door level to open the door (it's a safety thing), the voice recognition is marginal (Acura is still the best at this), same with the Navigation (ditto my previous comment on Acura).
So we will see how the ownership experience pans out on this thing. If it ends up being a service bay queen I will unload it before the warranty expires. We didn't start out wanting a BMW, we just kind of fell into it but so far we REALLY like this vehicle. The performance isn't just a psychological thing, they are ally fun to drive and we could see owning another one.
03-24-2013, 08:51 AM
#160
Burning Brakes
As a fairly new owner of a BMW X3, it's tough for any SUV to compare to the "fun factor" in handling. The 3 series and 5 series- which I'm considering in replacing my 2007 RL with are at even a higher level of perfomance. Yes, I realize many out there buy BMW and MB for the badge.
Love Acuras- bought 3 in a row. Very well made and my RL still has fun technology that many others don't. I need AWD in New Jersey and will see how that RLX drives in the Fall.
Love Acuras- bought 3 in a row. Very well made and my RL still has fun technology that many others don't. I need AWD in New Jersey and will see how that RLX drives in the Fall.