Mike_TX

I've had the chance to drive behind the 9spd transmission in the TLX back-to-back with my RLX several times now, and I'm coming away with an impression that's not so positive.

It frankly comes as no surprise to me, having owned cars from Lexus and Infiniti with 8spd trannies, that you can have too many gears. And the 9spd in the TLX just reinforces that.

While that high-high 9th gear might be a boon to steady-state highway mileage, in more-normal surface and freeway use, it becomes a liability. Not only does it make for a somewhat lumpy takeoff from red lights as it rows through all those gears, but when you need some quick acceleration, it becomes mired in its own cogs as it first decides what to do, then downshifts several gears to accomplish it. The result is a big soft spot of delay, then a rush of acceleration. Obtaining a smooth surge of acceleration just isn't in the cards.

With my RLX's 6spd tranny, there is more-responsive and smoother acceleration because the connection between engine and drive wheels is more direct. There's no need for transmission and engine software to have to take time to evaluate things and send commands to activate multiple gearsets ... if you're in 6th, it simply kicks down one or two gears, depending on speed and how much urgency you ask of it.

There used to be a TV show called "Eight is Enough". When it comes to the number of gears in transmissions, I think the answer is "Six is Enough".

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3.2cls6speedmt

too bad manuals are becoming obsolete

jwong77

This! Absolutely! Having driven in several of the new 3 Series as loaners, I can confirm this with their 8 speed. It gets caught out of gear too often and takes to long to find the right gear. I much prefer the 6 speed on my old E92.

1fstTL

iTrader: (1)

same goes on a recent loaner 2015 range rover evqoue shit was just akward to drive, lagged so much

Curious3GTL

I've read the 9 speed automatic in the MDX is dramatically different. Did you drive one of those too?

Mike_TX

Have not had the chance to drive a new MDX.

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JD TL-S

iTrader: (1)

Sounds Logical.

getakey

my other car has no gears

Mike_TX

LOL. I may be ever so slowly warming up to the CVT.

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getakey

nope, EV

wife went from 5 speed manual to EV
Actually kept the 5 speed just to have a manual around for fun

Colin

I wonder why manufacturers insist on giving buyers what (from this thread) people do not want? I would add that when we moved from 4AT to 5AT, the complaints were the same. Same for the 5AT>6AT (yes, I've been here long enough to remember them all)

hondamore

I believe one part of the answer is marketing. When selling cars to the masses, 9 speeds MUST be better than 7 speeds (it is clearly two speeds better). As silly as that sounds, there is no shortage of consumers that don't do their homework and are easy picking for fast-talking salesmen using just that argument. I'm sure there are even some people who believe that a 9-speed equipped car is faster (top end speed) than a 7-speed.

I suspect that the other part of the answer is fuel economy. If you can add a super-tall cruising gear that gets incredible mileage, maybe people will ignore the jerky ride and seemingly endless delays as the transmission finds it's way out of that super-tall gear when the driver actually wants to accelerate.

Just my guess.

George Knighton

Well...isn't it the popular idea now that we are looking for more gears?

It enhances both performance and fuel economy, right?

The ZF 9 has had a couple of addresses by Acura to help with the feeling that it is shifting too sharply for two gears, and because ZF had an issue that might have caused a manufacturing problem.

Thousands of TLX were brought back for inspection because they were afraid that something was put together wrong before Acura took possession of the units, right?

I've had a TLX V6 with the 9 ZF on two occasions. It shifts really quite sharply at two points. I could deal with it as a minor sacrifice for the extra performance and fuel economy, but I was still surprised that it was not a little smoother.

You might even say the 9 ZF is more harsh than the 7 DCT in the RLX Sport Hybrid. I believe that most of us would generally expect the opposite.

neuronbob

I've been here that long, too. We are both forum geezers. I think I've finally had it with the "number of gear" wars, largely because if you want an infinite number of "gears", the CVT wins and gives the best fuel economy in many situations. How many is too many? I'm not smart enough to answer that.

miner

I own a 2014 RLX Adv, a 2015 TLX V6 Adv and now have a 2015 MDX as a loaner. The transmission in the MDX is completely different than the TLX even though they are both 9sp (and I think made by ZF). The shift pts in the MDX are so much better planned. And the acceleration in that SUV is surprising. Hopefuly there will be a SW update for the ZF9 tranny in the TLX, I won't hold my breath though.

Mike_TX

Yes, the 9spd is being sold as an enhancement to performance and fuel economy. It's also part of a "war" among mfr's to outdo each other.

I suspect it is also a means of satisfying the unrealistic mpg demands of CAFE and the EPA. Since the driving cycles used to set mpg ratings are performed at specific speeds and under set conditions, the 9spd can be tuned to maximize mileage results.

Either way, I've personally concluded a 6spd is about the sweet spot for AT's. Enough gearing to maximize acceleration and to provide for a high gear for low-rpm highway cruising.

And yes, Colin and Neuronbob, I'm old, too. My first AT was a 2spd Powerglide.

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heisnuts

The MDX did not go to the 9sp until 2016. If your MDX loaner has the push button gear selector, then it is the 9sp, if not you have the 6sp.

Fabvsix

I too had a 2016 TLX V6 SH-AWD loaner and the shifting was annoying to say the least....downshifts were ruff....I was happy to return to my 4 speed RL.....

JM2010 SH-AWD

How many posts have you read on this forum where people complain "even [insert lower end car marque] has a [insert multiple gear number]-speed transmission; why is Acura so far behind." Well, Acura listened to these folks and now we have delayed acceleration because the tranny can't make decisions as fast as people's right feet want.

We shouldn't be surprised, I guess. Remember all the car mags complaining about the Infiniti G37's 7-speed auto gear hunting?

No doubt much of it is the quest for higher mpg, but at what price in drivability and responsiveness?

csmeance

Acura used to be a company that delivered a nearly 100% complete car that was almost free of bugs! The issues with the 9spd transmission shouldn't be happening, esp after Honda got sued over the 2G TL/Oddy transmissions.

Colin

The same could be said for 'touch screens vs. buttons' and 'beak vs. bland styling'

hondamore

It is a fine line that car manufacturer execs have to walk. If you don't listen to what people want (or think they want due to the marketing from other brands), you get blasted for not understanding the consumer. If you listen to the masses and alter your product with features that you know are nothing more than marketing tools, you are blasted for bastardizing your cars with features that really have no purpose.

Unfortunately, far too often the marketing arm gets to veto the engineering arm and 9-speed transmissions are born. Fortunately, the masses are "1000% sure" that they are "two speeds better than a 7-speed" and likely also contribute to male enhancement meaning that they will always sell.

I'm reminded of a Simpsons episode in which Homer finds his long lost brother the successful automotive magnate who puts Homer in charge of designing a car based on the wants and needs of the average man. The result is as expected and the company goes bankrupt. The moral of the story - it is better to tell people what they want than to give them what the think they want.

Required addendum: Not all 9 speeds are equal and some day Acura will develop one that shifts as smooth and as intelligently as the 7 speed DCT in the Sport Hybrid at which time I will extol it's virtues to all that will listen.

dvdpgb

Hondamore, you cracked it right in the head!!!!

jterp7

i had hoped that the 7sp would trickle down, but it looks like the future will include the 8DCT, 9AT, and sparingly (nsx only) the 9sp DCT. At the worst I had hoped they could consolidate in the 8DCT as it is unique to Acura and in essence you get the best of both worlds.

neuronbob

The 7-speed is a bespoke tranny that directly connects with the Sport Hybrid system. I don't see it trickling down unless the Sport Hybrid system does, too. I hope Acura considers it in other cars, the system is pretty good as long as one recognizes the major drop in fuel economy with extremely cold weather conditions.

George Knighton

Right.

The 7 DCT relies on the 47 HP front electric motor to pre-select the gears up and down, and to keep the car moving between shifts.

This is why the Acura Sport Hybrid's transmission is so much smoother than the Porsche automated manual, and others.

To get the 8 DCT in the four cylinder cars to be smooth, they went the unconventional route of having a torque converter.

jterp7

didn't realize that...is the 8DCT not robust enough for the V6 then?

George Knighton

My guess is no, and that it would also need a new casing.

Zoommer

Absolutely correct!!

Zoommer

Ford just patented 11 speeds. Beep Beep. Not sure how this would benefit anyone right now.

neuronbob

^^^^
11 speeds? Really? At that point, again, just use a CVT, it's more efficient and Honda has a pretty darned good one. The CVT used in the 9G Accord feels "natural", i.e. like a regular automatic transmission. It's not as rubber-bandy as others.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Having spent time with different variations of ZF's 9-speed as well as 8-speed transmissions, I have to admit I too am not particularly impressed. The ZF seems to be harsher or slower than I would expect depending on the mode. It seems that people are so sold on numbers alone, they do not understand the engineering that goes into a car and are more interested in bragging rights than actually enjoying the cars they buy.

That said, Aisin's 8-speed that is in the Lexus cars as well as a number of Volvos now is actually quite good and does not hunt around like many other cars with so many speeds.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

I believe its just a patent and not going into production

weather

Hey Colin, was it as bad when people gave up their horse for the model T? I wasn't on Acurazine back then *LMAO*

CGTSX2004....I heard teh same thing about the Lexus' 8 speed but never test drove as its only available in the RWD and in Canada, most dealers carry only the AWD with its 6 speed - This tranny is plenty good for me and agree that this obsession with gazillion gears has created another problem. We are almost at a stage where we caught up with 18 wheelers!

hondamore

A point that should be made for those particularly bothered by transmission lag is that the option to use Sport Mode and the paddle shifters is always there. That is, more aggressive drivers do have the option to select their gear so there is much less lag although convenience and mileage certainly suffer.

I'm in no way excusing the silly gear number "one-upsmanship" that the manufacturers are playing, just saying that Sport + paddles can help those looking for a more instant response to their right foot's demands.

getakey

^paddles might be just as slow if you need to drop down 2, 3, or even more gears

hondamore

^^I agree, good point.

The aggressive driver using the paddles can choose to not select the taller gears, thus eliminating the need for 2+ gear downshifts (with the penalty of making frequent stops for gas and listening to the engine roar constantly).

R. White

I had another TLX v6 loaner yesterday. Very noticeable shift into 2nd gear and the transmission seems to really get confused if you don't fully stop before accelerating. The leather seats are much harder than either the RLX or our '13 TL.

George Knighton

I don't like paddles. For whatever one dumb old man's opinion is worth.

Paddles would be of the most use when you're on the track or otherwise in some kind of very high performance mode.

But...the paddles are on the steering wheel and, hello people!!, you have to shuffle steer in these ultimate performance scenarios. When you need to up-shift the most, it's more or less a gamble that you'll be in the correct steering wheel position with your hands in the right place to do it.

What, does everybody think he's in an F1 car and doesn't have to shuffle steer, or what?

I dislike driving Ferraris, but I have to hand it to them that the paddles are in the right place, on the steering column where they don't move around when the steering wheel moves.