Rocket_man

Folding rear Seats is kind of my 'thing.' I think Acura has to provide this feature if they want to maximize the utility of this car. Not everyone has the luxury to be able to afford two cars. So it is not a surprise that a buyer wants performance AND utility. Let's face it, a four door sports car is already a compromise for the sake of utility. If you wanted 'sport' you shouldn't have bought a 4 door car. But the two additional doors were a compromise (a serious compromise) for utility. Folding rear seats is almost no compromise if done right. Maybe a few extra pounds but far less than 2 extra doors and seats and added length. It should also be noted that the 328 now has folding rear seats as standard, as does the new IS which is a new feature for this model, and both of these cars are available in RWD or AWD. The ATS has it as an option of some trims, not sure about the new Q50. Many American models have it (Buick Verano, regal, Lacrosse). In fact the BMW has 40-20-40 (ie 3 way) folding rear seats with a huge opening. Now if these companies can do it, why can't Acura? This is not rocket science, it makes them look incapable of engineering this feature in their cars. sigh... Maybe I'm in the minority, but this will be a deal breaker for me and the reason I didn't consider a TL. I use it frequently.

The ILX isn't a step up from the TSX, and as Colin mentioned TSX owners will expect to have it. So where do they go? Not the ILX. Leaving it out of the vehicle Acura wants TSX owner to 'step up to' is not smart marketing. But I haven't seen a lot of smart marketing on the sedan side of the Acura house lately.

okay, rant off (for now). I feel better now. BTW I heard on one of the TOV videos I think on the RLX that the Acura rep said they he reads TOV as a source of feedback. Really??? So i'm thinking then them must look here too since this forum is far more valuable. So if I write about this enough times hopefully it will sink in! lol

noobie

BMW and Mercedes do this very well. How many power train and trim combinations do they have. I've lost count. Add individual factory options to that, which Honda and Acura do not do and you way more than 8 combinations.

They also offer try to keep the perception of higher MRSP and prestige while offering incentives to lower the lease payment capital coat and money factor. Years ago BMW even put the incentives into artificially high residual values for the lease so they could claim they did not discount. Backfired when after the lease expired, they got turned back, flooding the used car market and driving down resale.

Seems like Acura is trying a page form their playbook...

Colin

This is true, but look at the cost of the cars. Frankly, our customers through the years have shown that they won't pay that for Acura product. At a point, these discussions become circular.

"Other people do it, why can't Acura"
"maybe they could but the car could cost more"
"their cars are already too expensive"

"Acura needs to build prestige w/ V-8 and RWD"
"then the cars would cost the same as a 5 series"
"oh, then I'd just buy the 5 then"

"Acura should make the new chassis and sell it for a loss to gain share"
"maybe Honda would rather not lose money and risk a hostile take over"
"I'm not a shareholder so I don't care if they get bought by Renault"
"maybe Honda cares"

I can think of more if you like .... LOL

Colin

IMO, nothing to do with engineering and everything to do with costs/safety. They could probably add more high strength steel under the rear seats and over the trunk shelf to compensate for the loss of rigidity. But again, it's more cost, and worse, its cost that you can't see.

Look at all the "RLX is just a fancy Accord" discussions here. Supposedly we are the most enthusiastic and tech savvy audience. Yet few discussions cover what makes a RLX different under the skin. Seeing this, I can understand why they're reluctant to spend money sometimes.

noobie

Yes I agree with you. I was merely pointing out that the Germans have a ton of variations, making the car you actually want very expensive. Porsche is insane with this! Actually, I like the way Honda (and Acura) do it with generally having 3 or 4 trim lines.....Although I do remember way back when my first Honda had A/C as a dealer installed accessory..... before Acura was even born.

Though the MDX price is starting to get up there and customers are paying.

noobie

Yes this is true. My $52K GS didn't have folding seats, only a small pass through...and about the smallest trunk you could imagine. My new Jag has neither. Not sure it's all about cost though. Most people in this range usually have second vehicles, typically SUVs.

Rocket_man

I see it two ways.... first on the features list which every buyer looks at, and second, every time I use it. Honda invested a lot of time and money to develop their steel/aluminum bonding tech (can't remember the name) that is something no one sees, yet it made sense to them to spend the money not only to develop it but to modify the assembly line to implement it.

We had this same discussion on push button start, now it is a feature in every car Acura (will) sell. Wouldn't you like to be able to show your customers the utility of this feature?

I can always hope it will be there, if not I'll just go else where for my next car.

GoHawks

I agree. My 2nd gen RL had the pass thru. It came in handy carrying hockey sticks as I took my kids to games or my own when I went to men's leagues. It was sufficient. My CTS coupe does have the folding seats (no pass thru) and I haven't put the seats down once in a little over a year.

We had a Toyota Lndcruiser that I called the urban assault vehicle when we needed to carry a ton of stuff. Now my oldest son drives himself and we still have an SUV, albeit much smaller (a BMW X5) when we need to carry the family or a bit more stuff.

4thaccord

I think many people understand how the RLX is different "under the skin"; the comments I've seen have dealt with how these differences are nowhere near enough to justify the RLX being more than twice the price of an Accord. They don't say it's the same thing as an Accord, they say it's a fancy Accord.

My TL was just a fancy Accord, but they WERE different enough in handling and performance to justify the (smaller) price difference between the 2 (actually my CPO TL price < new Accord). For the price of the RLX, I would buy a top level new Accord (which I did) AND a new Mustang, for less $.

jhr3uva90

By the time you add a V6 engine, a sunroof, leather seats, and a top of the line factory audio system to the Accord, is it really half the cost of an RLX?

GoHawks

I am including an article I just read on the Lincoln MKZ which has received a lot of positive press, but has been dogged by some production delays. The article also goes into greater detail on Lincoln's efforts to "reboot" the brand.

I share it because there are several points made in the article relate with points made here about both the RLX and the Acura brand.

I also included some excerpts towards the end of the article that especially resonate with what has been said here.

http://www.freep.com/article/2013042...nd-s-relaunch-

“It’s not a re-launch just because you call it one,” he said. “The strategy needs to be associated with enough new products to justify the name, and this one hasn’t been.”

Noble says the “One Ford” mantra championed by Ford CEO Alan Mulally of sharing platforms and components around the world is fine for the Ford brand, but not for Lincoln.

Cadillac developed an all-new platform when GM rebooted its luxury brand more than a decade ago. While some Cadillacs share their platforms with other brands, the heart of its lineup — the CTS and ATS — were engineered from the ground up specifically to take on BMW and Mercedes.

“Luxury brands can’t rehash platforms and components from a mainstream brand. Ford has to make the painful and expensive decision to develop separate luxury platforms if Lincoln is going to survive,” Noble said

Farley, whose resume includes running Toyota’s Lexus luxury brand before joining Ford, disagrees. He cites Lexus and Audi as flourishing luxury brands that share some platforms with their mainstream brands. Unlike Lincoln, however, they both have some platforms and engines developed specifically for luxury models.

GoHawks

Here is another interesting article on the top ten vehicles with the best interiors.

Acura was represented by the RDX. Interesting that there wasn't one German brand on the list, but they attribute it to the fact that they (Germans) haven't introduced any new models.

Didn't the 3 series and 5 series just get refreshes?

http://www.freep.com/article/2013042...auto-interiors

SSFTSX

Majority of Lexus sells are on share platoforms. RX/ES/GX/LX etc.

KeithL

^^^^

And Lexus has not updated their 3.5 in forever now. I suspect they will need to do a DI or turbo variation soon for MPG.

noobie

Lexus had DI for the 3.5 for years, although it sounds like a sewing machine outside the car. Lexus also has unique platforms for the LS, IS and GS (at least in US). Audi also shares platforms with VW but has unique platforms. Acura has nothing unique from Honda.

GoHawks

Did you read the article or what I quoted?

They acknowledged that there is platform sharing, but they also have dedicated platforms for their higher end models. Like the LS and GS.

noobie

I'm not counting the NSX, just like I'm not counting the LFA.

Colin

Since this is not a car club, but rather, the car business. Who is to say that Honda isn't the one laughing their way to the bank? After all, they do manage to outsell Volvo, Audi, and Infiniti year after year without the cost of a dedicated chassis. It may cost them some "snob appeal points" in the automotive press and on forums like this, but they are able to offer (generally) a lot of content at a given price point while maintaining above average quality.

jhr3uva90

I believe the first-generation RL had its own platform and it sold even worse than the second generation. Therefore, a separate platform does not necessarily result in better sales.

hondamore

^^I agree with Colin and jhr3uva90. Honda executives have obviously looked at the costs and potential benefits of creating a unique RWD platform and concluded that Honda/Acura are financially better off with the current policies. Honda doesn't have the massive cash reserves or resources of Toyota and so they can't take the same kind of risks that Toyota can.

GoHawks

Actually for Acura it's not even a car business, but an SUV business. I read recently that the MDX accounts for a third of Acura's sales.

All this bragging that Acura outsells everyone else. Take away the MDX and I don't think there would be much to brag about.

hondamore

Take away her face and her body and Halle Berry is just the girl next door. The point is that the current market is asking for SUV's and Acura is doing a good job with the RDX and MDX at giving the market what it wants.

jhr3uva90

Yup, America is a truck/SUV country. The top selling vehicle is the Ford 150 truck. And Lexus had an 11-year run as the top-selling luxury brand in the USA mostly because they had three separate product lines of SUVs back when BMW and Mercedes only had two.

Colin

Good grief.

GoHawks

I don't disagree with you. The MDX has been a home run from the start and I talked my sister into buying a 2013 RDX. The point of this thread though and this particular forum is about the RLX and Acura's flagship sedan that according to just about every single review, falls far short of competing with the other brands.

We sit here and debate the fact that Acura hasn't been able to build/market a flagship sedan that is respected and then people say, "we'll Acura out sells Brand X". Well why does Acura even bother then? They should just sell the MDX, RDX and TL.

dwboston

Respected by who? Dan Neil and the rest of the car mag writers? Forum enthusiasts? The owners seem to respect the RL (both generations). I see plenty of both gen RLs on the road in MA.

If Acura sold only the MDX, RDX and TL, then you would complain they didn't have a car at every price point to match the competitors. Honda goes its own way, like it or not. They "bother" because there are some people who like the brand and would rather buy an Acura than a more expensive, comparably equipped BMW or MB.

This debate has been going on here for at least 8 years, if not longer. Honda makes FWD cars, with a few AWD models thrown in, at least until the NSX arrives. Deal with it. Honda seems to be doing reasonably well with its approach.

GoHawks

...and how many customers "respected" the 2nd gen RL enough that Acura didn't have to deeply discount the car to move it?

Remember, I owned a 2nd gen RL. I bought it new and I loved it (I was in the minority) but our discussions here aren't whether we loved our cars. The discussion is what it will take to make the RLX a success?

I doubt Acura set out to deeply discount the 2nd gen RL. I am happy they did because I got a great car for a steal. I doubt that Acura or any other brand will consider it a success if they have to deeply discount their flagship sedan again.

Like you said, the discussion has been going on here for years... And also like you said, HONDA has been doing well for years and they will continue to do so. With exception of the success of their SUVs, Acura seems to be lost.

They let the 2nd gen RL die on the vine. Tell me that selling a couple hundred RLs a month is part of the plan. Tell me that the MMC of the 2nd gen RL was a success.

Tell me that that the 4th gen redesign of the TL was a success.

Tell me that the tepid response to the ILX was planned?

Tell me that anyone at Acura can possibly be happy with the lukewarm (at best) reviews of the RLX was planned. Consumer Reports, a publication that has been justifiably and deservedly extremely pro-Asian over the years (especially Honda and Toyota) absolutely savaged the RLX in their review.

Tell me that the marketing guys at Acura and the dealerships can possibly be happy with that.

You guys make it sound like these execs are smugly sitting in their offices and simply dismissing all of these reviews.

I don't believe that. No self respecting designer, engineer, marketing department wants to hear that kind of criticism of their product.

Yeah, Honda isn't going to go bankrupt, they are a great engineering company, but they lost their identity.

I sound angry because I wanted to stay with the brand. Again, I have been a customer longer than most of you. I don't care what any of you say, but you want to build loyalty. You don't want to lose 19 year customers like me. If they are (as you suggest) OK with that because they have been successful in the past, I suggest that is a foolish business plan.

I became a customer when their tagline was "Precision Crafted Performance". That was an identity, it spoke volumes.

I don't know what their identity is now.

SSFTSX

These platforms is less than 10% lexus sales. There is no point for Acura to invest for 10% sales separate platform. instead giving hybrid platform to each Acura will produce more sales.
infact there CT-200 is platform sharing. Acura still has better residual values than Lexus. i am not sure any point of creating separat platform. and this separate platform issue is media. Honda never said they have shared platforms regarding RL. Just the size of stablizer bars is way big, brake size is different. wheel base is different.
ES/Avalon is practically identical.

jhr3uva90

Acura execs might be upset and have every right to be, but I don't think Honda Motor Company in Japan really cares about the luxury market. Besides, Infiniti did everything the market expected of them and provided excellent cars, yet the market still hasn't rewarded them. So Infiniti has resorted to making a FWD SUV based on a "regular" Nissan.

And even thought the ILX is overrated and the ZDX was an abysmal failure, all Acura (USA) has to do is get the TL/TLX right. That's it. I predict the next MDX will be a hit and the RDX is already a hit. The RL/RLX has always been the Acura stepchild, the car Acura (USA) never wanted and probably never will. But the TL/TLX is the golden child for them. Acura must get it right, and I think they will. And I don't think it will require RWD or a V8.

Oh, and I don't think Acura (or rather, HMC) let the RL die on the vine. They just kept selling the 2nd generation until they sold a certain number of units. If that meant it took 8 years, then so be it.

hondamore

I agree that the RL was not left to "die on the vine". The RL's replacement was going to be a V10 powered luxocruiser to satisfy the world's insatiable desire for horsepower, but the global economic meltdown put the brakes on that idea. Honda/Acura then changed gears and put their corporate focus on fuel economy and "smart luxury" for the Acura brand. With the lingering economic situation, it seems like they made a reasonable call.

rsx2rdx

Isn't getting SH-SH AWD right equally important? Toyota is eating Hondas lunch with there hybrid models and while I agree the TLX needs to be a hit, nobody's going to be happy pumping premium if gas gets up to $10. If Honda can make hybrid driving fun and reasonably affordable, that could really change the pecking order.

jhr3uva90

I agree that getting SH SH AWD right is equally important. I guess that's the reason why that version of the RLX hasn't been released yet.

noobie

Funny how this thread has turned into a discussion on SUVs. I think we all agree Acura makes great SUVs. Many of us own them. I'll probably be a 3 generation owner.

It's also interesting the comments about Honda or Acura don't really care about RLX sales. Let me tell you, there isn't an executive out there that doesn't care about success. It is a DNA requirement. Often there are times due to organization dysfunction that impede success in spite of best intentions.

This is an RLX forum. At the end of day, sales will dictate success. In the sales thread, I went out on a limb and predicted a bullish 1200 sales. No on else offered a number, only to say it was too high.

The press has panned the car. Sales look like they could be gloomy. How many $50, $60, $70K cars do they need to launch to lack luster sales to be considered a failure? I said this in another thread. I hope they are widely successful, but rationally feel they probably will not be.

Some of us are offering suggestions and features as to why and what they might consider, many of these proven to be successful. This is constructive criticism, not attacking Acura or the car. By all practical measures, the RLX is more functional than my car, but it is not more fun to drive nor will it make me happier driving it. That's why I won't buy one. Many buyers have the same psychology as me when it comes to buying a car in this class. It's not logical or rational, but car purchase seldom are.

Let me ask all you staunch defenders a question? Will you buy the car? That's the ultimate test of success, not glowing about on a forum.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming

noobie

I will continue this off topic tangent a bit, to offer some clarifications. Audi outsells Acura world wide and poised to overtake them in US this year. However the new MDX might keep Acura's place. In fact VW group is vying to surpass Toyota as number 1 in the world. Infiniti is a bit like Acura, only worse. Great cars, no love. I'm sure we could start a 20 page thread on how to fix Infiniti.

Volvo is a orphaned car company saved from Saab's fate by the Chinese. It's just starting its turnaround. I would stay tuned for their new model launches.

BTW: Colin, I think it's great that you are here as a resource.

neuronbob

Hmmm. Mama says if you can't say anything nice....wait for the sport hybrid RLX release! . The discussion is honestly getting a little stale.

C'mon guys, someone photoshop some wheels on an RLX pic or something.

*neuronbob goes back into freak out mode over Mike Brown being considered as Cavs coach, a much more existential concern. *

noobie

You know they say mama's always right! LeBron coming to dinner?

P.S. someone post pics of their new RLX

GoHawks

I actually agree with you that Honda doesn't care as it shows in their actions.

That's OK, but let's stop pretending then that they have any intention of taking on the big boys.

g37guy01

Well I'm liking the q50. That very well may be my next car. Acura does sell more vehicles than infiniti, but no thanks to the TL or rl. Somehow, unlike Acura, I think infiniti is on the right track.

noobie

Me too. I really like Infiniti. Surprised by JX sales though, I thought they would be mush stronger. Although a case could be made that they underpowered the JX and gave it a pretty hefty price in AWD well equiped trim.

The M always puzzed me, since it was highly rated by CR. Maybe just too hasrh and noisy for most.

KeithL

Road noise is the big killer, it is the one thing that almost makes me want out of the M some time. While the M37S is firm is is not harsh and no where near as firm as a SH-AWD TL.