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Mercedes is a global brand and a VERY prominent brand in Europe which allows them to manufacture and market products like the 300 series wagon primarily for the European market and then bring a few over to the U.S. and other markets to fill a niche demand. In North America, the minivan rose to prominence some time ago and still serves as the vehicle of choice for soccer moms needing to haul lots of kids and weekend warriors coveting abundant cargo space for their bikes and gear etc. The VAST majority of other drivers looking for more functionality than a sedan have had their needs met by SUV/CUV's. In Acura's North American market, I doubt that a pricey, luxury wagon would be able to compete with the HUGE selection of luxury SUV's based on current market trends.
That said, I can see a time when CAFE numbers and green initiatives cause a shift in demand to a lower, more fuel efficient SUV that looks a lot more like a wagon. Regarding the hybrid component of your idea, I don't think it will be long before ALL vehicles are going to have an electrical component to their drive trains, thus the reason for Acura to develop their brilliant Sport Hybrid system. So, at some point in the future, I suppose that a luxury Sport Hybrid wagon from Acura is a possibility, but you might be waiting for a very long time.
Most people in thing wagons are ugly. But Acura clearly doesn’t care that much about selling cars. (ok, kidding. Not kidding)
Wagons are hugely popular in Europe. I worked for a European company for a decade and spent a lot of drive and ride time in them. Form follows function especially when many roads follow tighter courses that were laid out hundreds of years ago.
I almost agree that the MDX is close enough but NOT until they put the bigger 3.6L engine in the Sport Hybrid MDX. I suppose that will be in a few years?
It seems that if crossover SUVs are so popular and the price of gas is rising, wagons would be the next logical step. Too bad Americans seem to hate them.
It seems that if crossover SUVs are so popular and the price of gas is rising, wagons would be the next logical step. Too bad Americans seem to hate them.
I could be wrong, but I think wagons were defeated by the stigma associated with being a family mover. When I grew up, everyone had a wagon - we called them Wally-Wagons as kids. My Dad had a wood panneled K car wagon and I vowed never to own one.
Then came minivans - and they are now suffering the same fate. They are for “soccer Mom’s” everyone says - so they aren’t cool. Hence the popularity of SUV’s. I just read an article talking about the decline of minivans - we love our Odyssey though.
Everything is cyclical. Just like how clothing and hair styles come in/out of style, wagons will have their time again. At the end of the day, practicality will prevail!
Funnily enough, just this morning on my commute to the office - I was driving behind a Toyota Sienna and it had a bumper sticker which said "I USED TO BE COOL".
I think that basically summarizes why minivan sales are on the decline...
Honestly, neither are SUVs/CUVs with the possible exception of the Jeep Trackhawk and Dodge Durango SRT. It's too bad I'm philosopically opposed to purchasing Chrysler products.... (the two I owned in the late 90's-early 2000's were such unmitigated crap that I will never buy again...)
It was *not* successful, not at all, if by successful you are counting cars.
If you mean we all said good things about it but never bought one then, yes, it was successful.
:-)
TSX Wagon was missing AWD (even the lesser Honda CRV version OF AWD) and a 6-Cylinder... and they would have sold a bunch of them; they’d still be in demand. It would have been a great car: TSX SH-AWD.
Later ... Acura figured this out ... and then BOTCHED it ... released that shorty/sporty chopped-off version of an AWD, 6-Cylinder wagon without the wagon. Sold a few thousand of them. Cool car but not functional and too expensive. I drove one in 2010 then bought an MDX. What was that called? Oh, right. ZDX.
Last edited by Scott in AZ; 06-25-2018 at 09:36 PM.
A lot of Hondas never got popular until they stopped making them. There's a lot of them, and salesmen have lists of people waiting to find one.
ZDX
Crosstour
TSX Wagon
EP3 Si
4G TL 6-6
Sometimes they're just ahead of the curve too far.
You can add the Honda Element SC into that mix also. They have certainly developed a cult following.
These vehicles only start becoming popular after their prices drop. I remember when the EP3 Si came out... oh, how badly I wanted one even though it was a much lesser car compared to the RSX-S. But they were hitting the 32k mark here in Canada and considered WAY too expensive by most everybody, 15+ years ago... and so they never really sold well. Now that they're pennies on the dollar, they switch hands all the time and are in demand.
A lot of Hondas never got popular until they stopped making them. There's a lot of them, and salesmen have lists of people waiting to find one.
ZDX
Crosstour
TSX Wagon
EP3 Si
4G TL 6-6
Sometimes they're just ahead of the curve too far.
I guess that is where I was headed with my comment a few posts ago about the successfulness of the TSX wagon. Maybe not popular/successful when in production. But good luck fining one now!
TSX Wagon was missing AWD (even the lesser Honda CRV version OF AWD) and a 6-Cylinder... and they would have sold a bunch of them; they’d still be in demand. It would have been a great car: TSX SH-AWD.
My main objection to the TSX wagon was that the loading area was impeded by the rear shock towers. Made it much less practical IMO. If it had a manual transmission, I could have overlooked the fact I actually would use the cargo space in a wagon. My CTS-V wagon, in addition to having a manual transmission (you'll have to pry a manual shifter out of my cold, dead hands, thank you....), has an excellent loading area, with no impeding shock towers. It's immensely practical in comparison to the TSX wagon. I use it for (very fast) Home Depot runs.
Anyhoo, a RLX wagon would not have a shock tower intrusion issue given its size. RLX is a fairly large car, at least in comparison to the TLX I'm driving now.
I remember when the EP3 Si came out... oh, how badly I wanted one even though it was a much lesser car compared to the RSX-S. But they were hitting the 32k mark here in Canada and considered WAY too expensive by most everybody, 15+ years ago.....
Here in the United States, they were trying to sell them for 20K US. Honda banked on the "Si" idea overcoming a very bad exchange rate between the United States and the United Kingdom. Before the end of 2002, however, Honda gave up and dealers were trying to get 15,500 for them, at which point they could move a few.
No doubt they took a bath. I don't know what they were thinking.
Famous Honda racing organizations reviewed them badly, which certainly hurt a lot. Spoon/Ichishima said some very bad things before discarding their EP3 race cars and moving on to something else. With the DC5 (the same suspension), the US homologation committee finally gave up and allowed Realtime to relocate the rear suspension pickup points in order to make the cars competitive.
The EP3 and DC5 were Honda's first McPherson design, and they learned some lessons the hard way. Many people who tried to swap suspension, put in some kind of performance suspension, were in for a big shock. The front shocks were straight up and down, but still had to fit under that low bonnet. They tried to compensate with a large diameter spring, but it didn't compensate enough. If you made the wrong choice of performance damper, picking a good name from well known Honda performance designers, you might very well find yourself blowing those dampers, repeatedly. Everybody had hard lessons to learn before Honda redesigned the front suspension so that the dampers leaned back toward the driver to get a longer stroke (starting in 2006 or 2007, I think).
With the EP3 and DC5, they also had a steering rack that was mounted up high on the fire wall (WTF?), and a tie rod that attached to the strut (double WTF??).
This caused an amount of bump steer with which DC2 champions were entirely unprepared, and before you knew it people were trying desperately to find ways to keep the DC2 in the homologation mix for many years after they were discontinued.
So many mistakes with those first McPherson cars. So many.
After all these years, now that people know what to do, and provided you're not actually racing, an EP3 can be a fun car. CTR or Type S brakes and suspension, a Type S or CTR motor and 6 speed, Torsen axle, and you've got a fun car with a low polar moment of inertia that'll be fun on track days. You're still very limited by the lack of travel at both the front and rear, but provided you're not trying to win races, this can be fun. :-)
I've always wondered why Honda turned away from the double wishbone suspension setup that made them famous since the late 80s...
I was told it was a matter of cost savings... seems like a MacPherson Strut suspension eliminates the upper control arm that a double wishbone suspension would otherwise have.
Cost savings seem like they'd be minimal at best- I can't imagine an upper control arm and a few bushings costing Honda more than $50 per corner. While the end user costs would likely be higher, had they used a suspension they were very well rounded with, that EP3 and DC5 could've received better reviews and likely sold more units... especially if Honda could eat that additional cost for the DW suspension and keep the car the same price. In my mind, they would've sold more vehicles to make up for that profit loss on using the more expensive suspension design.
For anyone interested, here is a comparison of a MacPherson strut front suspension, and a double wishbone front suspension:
MacPherson:
Double Wishbone:
Anyway, now after the horrendous thread derail... When I first saw this thread pop up, my initial reaction was "Ha, yeah right!"
Soon followed by "wow, that would be pretty cool actually..."
I don't know if it would sell very well in NA, but then again, the RLX isn't exactly a volume seller now anyway.
sleeping beauties...
I was laughing as I read this post as my primary autos are a ‘16 Sport Hybrid and an ‘11 Sport Wagon! What a sporty family! The build of these cars is exceptional, and they provide nearly every capability I could ask. My only gripe with the TSX is the confining backseat which can barely seat two average adults comfortably. I considered the Crosstour, but back in 2012, the Crosstour V6 motor still used the VCM II system, and I just couldn’t “grow to love” the humpback styling despite being built on the same chassis as the RLX. I do believe 2013 redesign of the CT helped its appeal, but I find the the solidity, styling, singularity, and playfulness of the Sport Wagon too much fun to part with. It’s better balanced as well with the added weight over the rear....
The Crosstour was born from the same design direction as the ZDX - a direction which seemed to prioritize style over function which was a major detour from the norm for Honda. The engineers took a back seat to the designers and the result was a back seat that nobody could fit in and a cargo area that was cramped and awkward. The resulting poor reviews and poor sales speak for themselves. Honda is an engineering company and people who buy Honda products expect to be able to hop into the back seat of their Honda without banging their head, they expect "clever" features on their vehicle that solve everyday problems. Alas, NONE of those were evident in the Crosstour or the ZDX that seemed to be built to simply "look cool".
I'm also a fan of the TSX Wagon's style and functionality and wonder if a relaunch, perhaps as a slightly bigger TLX wagon with a hot V6 and SHAWD might find a bigger market this time around. Success of such a vehicle might open the door to a TLX Sport Hybrid Wagon (which would be getting closer to Scott in AZ's wishes) featuring smoking performance, amazing handling, TONS of cargo space AND exceptional fuel economy that even surpasses the MDX Sport Hybrid. I still don't see a Wagon with the RLX's level of luxury as the hefty pricing would severely limit the market (as it does with the RLX).
Didn't Acura have some success with the TSX wagon a handful of model years ago? I'm not a wagon fan, but I wouldn't mind seeing one.
I can count on my hands how many of them I have seen and for all I know it was the same car over and over ;-) I think I have seen more Bentleys and Maseratis and I do not live in a wealthy area.
TSX Wagon was missing AWD (even the lesser Honda CRV version OF AWD) and a 6-Cylinder... and they would have sold a bunch of them; they’d still be in demand. It would have been a great car: TSX SH-AWD.
Later ... Acura figured this out ... and then BOTCHED it ... released that shorty/sporty chopped-off version of an AWD, 6-Cylinder wagon without the wagon. Sold a few thousand of them. Cool car but not functional and too expensive. I drove one in 2010 then bought an MDX. What was that called? Oh, right. ZDX.
Acura botched what could have been a great brand differentiator with SH-AWD. They should have made it available (or even standard) across the entire line then advertised it advantages in all weather conditions. I had to educate an Audi sales perosn last week on the fact that SH-AWD is far superior to standard Quatrro and is equal to their Sports Differential
I've always wondered why Honda turned away from the double wishbone suspension setup that made them famous since the late 80s...
I was told it was a matter of cost savings....
It was becoming impossible to design small cars that met modern crash test standards with a double wishbone suspension.
If you want a small car that is safe, has room for the kinds of motors your company builds, and you want the car to remain light enough to meet crash standards and get good fuel economy at the same time, you might have to resort to McPherson struts as the basis of the suspension design. You have more flexibility with how the crush zone directs energy.
You're right that there will be cost savings with a McPherson design compared to Honda's idea of a double wishbone suspension.
....and I just couldn’t “grow to love” the humpback styling despite being built on the same chassis as the RLX.
I am going to say that the 5G Legend is a unique chassis, unless you want to go all the way back to being able to use a particular jig on more than one vehicle.
I've never understood why people say the RLX is the same chassis as any other Honda being built.
There is no modern Honda based on the 2013 - 2019 Legend/RLX in the way that you can see that the 2018 Civic and 2018 Accord are the same chassis.
Of course it would be false to compare an Accord and RLX directly, and this article correctly points this out in terrific detail as it relates to the 9th gen Accord. I have, however, read multiple (though perhaps unverified) media sources that state that the basic frame, or most fundamental architectural component, is shared by the 8th gen Accord (‘08-12) which also underpinned the Crosstour and last gen TL...
Undoubtedly, the suspension design, materials, and bodywork is unique to the RLX...
Oh man, not only made me look, made me lust after unobtainum. I love wagons.
My favorite wagon so far was an '05 Subaru Legacy GT wagon. It is basically a WRX in a stealth package (I know, have a '04 WRX as wife's car). Went like stink and cops would not look at it twice no matter how fast it was going. But interior was too loud for long commute, so traded for the RL in '07.
An RLX SH-AWD sportswagon would be a must have. Heck, a nice hatchback (see Audi A7 / Kia Stinger) variant would be lovely as well.
In the 80s and 90s we always had a wagon at our house. In the late 90s - early 2000s we had a Tahoe or Yukon. Since then we've had three RX 350/400 SUVs. Its just the two of us now at the house. We have a convertible, a truck, the RLX and a RX350. I sometimes think about going back to a wagon and reducing the vehicle census at our house for less insurance and property tax outlays. The truck is staying because it is indispensable for occasional work trips. The convertible could go, but is obviously great fun with the top down and is also fun to drive aggressively top up any time. My bride does not like the idea of parting with the RX350, yet she is now the primary driver of our RLX. My mental model is to one day trade the RX and the RLX for a fully optioned near station wagon/suv rig made to go fast and be comfortable for miles on miles. The links below are to one possible choice: BMW 640I GT. I keep coming back to its reviews as it has essentially the same body length/width of our RLX, a size we like. Our BMW 435ix convertible has essentially the same engine and ZF transmission and has sweet responsive power with relatively good fuel mileage.
06-22-2018, 10:50 PM
I love wagons, myself, so I’d consider such a beast.
. I almost bought one in 2012. Ended up buying a 6MT CTS-V wagon instead a few months later. *unicorn*
what a fail.
