ross7777

ross7777

Stew4HD

I had a GS350 for a while. Traded my '12 TL for one. I didn't it was a lot better than the TL, it did cost a lot more. The seats in the GS350 F-Sport were the best.. the seats in the RDX remind me of those

Sounds

For what it's worth (which isn't much, granted) I saw a video interview of a spokesman from Honda America (corporate guy, not a dealer salesman). He was talking about how the ZF 9HP has been greatly improved, both in software and hardware. Sounded like they were well aware of the issues from the past.

EDIT - I forgot to mention that he was specifically talking about the new Passport, almost as if there have been additional tweaks to the ZF 9HP.

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irishbrahmin

Stew4HD

I realize the RLX doesn't sell well. It's a fine car but it sits in the middle of the premium and upper end luxury. It's too bad. The new RLX is really nice looking but they sell so few that it's a wonder they bother to make them.. There is a huge price difference between the RLX and those you mentioned, especially comparably equipped to the RLX

ross7777

ross7777

Stew4HD

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant the seats in the Advance RDX remind me of the seats in the GS. Not the same but similar in way they fit me and adjustability.

Tom2

That's an adjustable setting in the MMI system. But I turned it off on my Audi. I can't figure out why anyone would want to see the back-up camera after you're moving forward, but I guess some people do. But why???

PWMDMD

Yes, I have and while it's Acura's best attempt they sell less than 2000 per year. That means the RLX is hardly setting the tone for the rest of the brand. Most people have never SEEN one in the wild let alone been inside one. I don't even think Acura has been pushing the idea that they are luxury - I think the idea is entirely based on the idea that Toyota made a luxury brand and so people assume Honda did the same thing. The real difference is Acura sales do not justify a large R&D budget or high-end premium materials. Lexus uses superior materials compared to Toyota. Lexus builds their cars with a different mentality than does Toyota with different tolerances, etc. The result is a noticeably improved car.

It appears to me not only does Acura not go above and beyond Honda in R&D or materials or sourcing components but they appear to penny-pinch the entire process. I get it...it's hard to justify spending more on cars that do not command luxury prices/profits when there are models that only sell 2K-10K units per year.

PWMDMD

Lexus still sold 3x as many GSs as Acura sold RLXs - neither one is sales leader but I have to think the RLX is a loss leader too.

Lexus sold 2x as many vehicles as Acura last year - 298K vs 159K.

ross7777

PWMDMD

As well defined as Jon Ikeda thinks the Acura brand is...I think in reality it's in limbo. Consumers do not know what to make of Acura...they think they're a performance brand (per the article) but I think most feel they are trying to be a luxury brand like Lexus.

RDX10

Passive aggressive remarks about the missing features people have mentioned aside....

I think the Acura brand tried for a long time to be both sporty and luxury and this blew up in their face because obviously they were neither. So what I think they are now trying to do is become a sort of Japanese Audi.

See the A8 is a nice vehicle but I personally see the Audi brand as this techy brand that is more sports leaning and appealing to younger audiences vs brands like Mercedes which is definitely more luxury leaning. But what I have realized is that in order to do both luxury AND sport, the asking price has to be higher. It's impossible to be both sporty and luxury and have a lower entry price IMO.

Therefore I disagree with what some of you are saying, I do believe Acura has picked a lane (sporty) and is trying to make up for the missing luxury by being techy.

irishbrahmin

ross7777

PWMDMD

I agree...they DID pick a lane...the problem is the average consumer doesn't know it and that's the problem. Too many look at Acura expecting Lexus and are confused by findings watered-down Audi.

FWIW....my last Audi was a 2014 S5 - for the money ($68K) that was a really fun car and light years ahead of anything Honda/Acura has...except for the NSX. Now I realize that's a lot of $$ for a "sports car" that only had 333HP and I was paying an "Audi premium" but that car handled incredible well and was so well put together. If Acura wants to compete in that spacer anywhere close to that space then they need to produce better and sportier cars and to do that they need to convince buyers their cars are worth forking over 10-30K more to buy. That's the hard part...I don't see them being successful against other brands being cheap and sporty at the same time.

Stew4HD

Seems to me that Acura is happily selling in their segment. The MDX and RDX are quite popular and are great sellers... just saying

PWMDMD

They are...

RDX10

I agree, but this is a first generation system. I-drive in BMW back in 2004 was the most awful system on earth. Now it's one of the best. I think by the time the new MDX comes out it should be vastly improved. Changes can't happen in a day right.

But that can also be said for Audi or even Mercedes and a Hyundai or Ford. The mainstream brands have become so darn good that it almost doesn't make sense to pay the extra 10-20k to go premium or luxury. Now the only difference between premium/luxury brands and mainstream brands is refinement and material quality. In the past you'd buy these luxury brands to have the latest and greatest. Now you buy them for refinement.

A 18k Kia has cooled and heated seats and steering wheel, automatic driving aids, navi, backup or even surround view cameras....etc. What it doesn't have is luxury or quality.

It takes years for a brand to change public perceptions. Look at Hyundai and Kia, they have come SO FAR and arguably produce better vehicles than Honda or Toyota and the domestics. I don't see any Acura or Honda with a 5.0 V8. I remember Acura would put out these commercials on the second generation RDX and ILX on a racetrack and it was hilarious because if you've ever driven a 2G RDX you'd realize how actually scary those things are in sporty maneuvers.

Now they returned SH-AWD and showing the current RDX on a track makes sense. You can't take a soft luxury route like they did with the 2G RDX and then try and show it on a racetrack. That's what was confusing people. Hopefully they can continue to get their shit together and this rough time will be a distant memory.

I don't think Acura is trying to be on the same level as Audi or BMW, they are trying to remain a value play. So they are perfectly happy staying watered down Audi. But you are 100% correct, they need to make a compelling case for those people who can afford more than mainstream but maybe not Audi or BMW.

I think the current RDX is the FIRST Acura product in a LONG time to genuinely compete against these more expensive brands. Hopefully the next TLX and MDX follow and they decide to set the ILX on fire and let it fade away.

PWMDMD

I agree with everything you've said BUT it's not like Acura is a new brand. While many car brands have come a long way (Kia, Hyundai, BWX, Audi, etc) it's the fact that Acura has existed for the entire time of their rise/improvement and they have just seemed to fall more and more behind until their most recent efforts. Time will tell if they are going to be able to turn things around but they should've never gotten this far behind.

Stew4HD

FYI, Honda was the first to introduce an "upscale" brand, Acura

RDX10

No I fully understand and agree with you. I can't personally explain what lead them to fall so behind. I do know that in 2007ish they were talking about coming out with a V8 or V10 engine for the RL and NSX. Then the economy crashed and they had to scrap a lot of their plans.

Also Honda is fairly small compared to brands like Toyota, Ford, and VW and Acura is minuscule. They simply don't have the R&D money like Toyota does. I can't say why they waited this long to try and turn it around, but thankfully they finally are.

ross7777

Acura lost their way with the 2009 redesigned TL. That front end was very polarizing. I also think Honda branded vehicles started to become near luxury, especially in the Touring trims.

zroger73

To me, luxury means:

1. All the latest technology.
2. More power than you'll ever need.
3. Premium interior materials such as real metal, real wood, real carbon fiber, etc.
4. A smooth, isolated ride so that I can't feel any imperfections smaller than a speed bump.
5. Bank-vault levels of quietness. I want to hear nothing but the radio. I don't mind a slight hint of V8 engine noise, but I don't want to hear any wind or road noise
6. Flawless fit and finish.
7. Zero squeaks, rattles, buzzes, clicks, pops, creaks, hums, etc.

Acura has most of 1.
Acura is borderline with 2.
Acura has 3 down pretty good.
Acura leans more towards "sport" than "luxury" when it comes to 4, but this has long been a trend with other "luxury" brands as well.
Acura needs to work on 5, 6, and 7.

irishbrahmin

Wow! So well stated!

HotRodW

I won't disagree with any of this, but I would add dealership experience to the list as well. I own/have owned BMW, Audi, Benz, Acura and Lincoln brands, and surprisingly, Lincoln has treated me the best.

acuraada

really? You dont care what the car looks like outside? Hmm....

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acuraada

​​​​​Don't disagree with your definition of luxury here and #7 is even a basic requirement. But I think it's unfair to ask Acura to deliver 100% of these things at a price you would want to pay for an Acura.

PWMDMD

zroger73

I buy Hondas because my goal is avoiding dealerships entirely. I perform my own maintenance and out-of-warranty repairs (and some in-warranty repairs when the cost of the parts is less than the value of my time and the risk of leaving my vehicle in the hands of a dealership exposing it to an increased risk of damage).

Personally, I prefer a brand that needs few to no warranty repairs from the most rude dealer in town than a brand that constantly needs repairs from a dealer that serves Japanese Kobe beef steak dinners while you wait.

This generally keeps me away from BMW, Audi, MB, and Lincoln.

HotRodW

That was me once upon a time, too. My time is far more valuable to me these days, plus having a complete documented service history can make a difference at trade-in time in this Carfax age in which we live. Besides, while some are clearly better than others, there are no fool-proof brands, and reputations/brand history aren't necessarily good indicators of what to expect. I've had generally good luck with all of my cars, but log as many miles as I do and there will be problems. My BMW was a POS from day one, and drove me away from the brand permanently. Our Audi was the most reliable vehicle we've ever owned, needing one minor recall and nothing else but scheduled 10k services thru nearly 90k miles. Most surprisingly, our Rav4's transmission self-destructed right after the factory warranty expired, and it had plenty of problems both before and after that particular incident. Still, statistics don't lie. If I had to recommend a reliable vehicle for my mother, I'd suggest a Toyota without hesitation.

RDX10

Yes Acuras go through an extra process in the assembly line (at least I know that RDX'd and MDX's do) but they definitely don't go as stringent as Lexus.

"Like the first generation model, the new generation is manufactured exclusively by Honda of Canada Manufacturing Ltd. in Alliston, Ontario, Canada. But along with the 2007 RDX, the new MDX was the first Acura model to pass the Acura Quality Line, a special quality control and verification process separate from the other Honda vehicles."

Off the Wikipedia page for the 2G MDX.

anoop

I think in the past they tended to share their platforms with Honda (and even do so now, e.g. with the ILX) and that hurts branding (just as Audi used to be considered a rebadged VW).

Also, many of their tech features are not as well executed. BMW's infotainment is head and shoulders above Acura's, and from what little I have seen, Audi's is as well. With the RDX, if I'm in the middle of a phone call, I cannot check the miles to empty or the trip computer, nor do anything with navigation. Also, with the rear camera, the guidelines don't line up exactly with the car, the camera is practically useless when it's raining, and it doesn't stay on at all when moving forward (which helps alignment). I can go on and on, but I think you get the point. This type of execution is about cutting corners.

irishbrahmin

I can say a lot about Lexus since I've owned over ten of them. First, they're bulletproof. I've bought several with 100k+ miles w/o reservation which had no rattles or problems. The only reason I got rid of them was because of an itch to get something newer. The service experience is second to none (and I'm not talking about the food and lounges). I've had service advisors and shop foreman go out of their way to be helpful, including doing some jobs for free (or comping them). Mercedes, Audi, Acura, and BMW are way behind. Relatedly, in my area Lexus will give you an loaner for anything. Acura, BMW, and MB will not give one for oil changes or other routine service.

anoop

I only have experience with BMW, and I can safely say that the service departments I dealt with at 4 out 5 dealers was BAD. They were bad at scheduling, bad at giving out loaners, bad at updating on progress of the service, and bad at actually fixing anything that was broken. I don't think I will be buying another BMW. It was OK putting up with all sorts of problem when they were the ultimate driving machine, but since the last generation of cars that is gone, so I got fooled once, but never again!

If the UX was out at the time I bought the RDX, I would have definitely given it a try. I thought the RX was too big for me.

ross7777

anoop

That is generally true (they were one of the last to make the switch to turbo and > 6 speed AT), although they did pioneer the hybrid class.

RDX10

I will NEVER own a BMW ever again. Absolutely the worst cars I've ever had. Fooled me twice and it was shame on me both times. I will never buy one again. Absolute garbage. BMW stands for Break My Wallet.