R. White

https://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/...s_in_oil.shtml

Nothing seen on 2.0 T. Something to watch in cold climates.

Madd Dog

China is at the forefront of this complaint. Yes, it bears watching, but, as you said, nothing so far on the 2.0.

losiglow

iTrader: (1)

Ah, good ol' turbocharged engines. I know they've made great strides in the tech and that they are engineered to be as reliable as naturally aspirated. But until all these new turbocharged cars are 10 years old and are still on the road, like the currently naturally aspirated 4's and 6's, I won't be buying one. Real life MPG's aren't much better and the addition of another part (the turbo...) is just one more thing to go wrong. In my opinion, I think the reason automakers are going to turbo's for run-of-the-mill cars is because of mandated EPA requirements. Just like they do with cylinder deactivation and auto start stop - both of which suck.

cruiserchuck

According to my local Acura dealer, another issue with turbo engines is that they put out more heat than naturally aspirated engines, thus requiring you to change hoses, wires, and other engine parts more often. They told me this two years ago, when they were not selling any vehicles with turbo engines. I assume they may be singing a different tune now.

losiglow

iTrader: (1)

Yeah. that's another factor. But I'm willing to bet that any manufacturer that develops a turbo engine is also going to engineer the engine bay to withstand the additional heat. Turbocharged engines definitely produce more heat but you don't routinely hear of components melting in the engine bay. Gotta remember, the manufacturer doesn't want to deal with a bunch of warranty claims if something goes wrong so they're going to cross their T's and dot their I's when it comes to engineering.

My whole beef is the purpose behind this shift in engines, which I also believe drives the outcome of the change. The start/stop system for example. It's harder on just about every drivetrain component of the car to be starting and stopping the engine all the time. But the change wasn't made to extend engine life. It was made to save fuel. Will the system cause an engine, starter, transmission, whatever, to die a bit earlier? Probably. But will it get marginally better mileage which will satisfy the EPA? Yep. Historically turbo's were added for performance. Now they're being added for economy. If it works out, wonderful. But I'm not an early adopter and I believe that these small turbocharged engines designed for economy are intrinsically different than turbocharged engines designed for performance. I could be wrong. I kind of hope I am. I would love to drop weight off the front end and have the option to get a bit better mileage if I don't hit the turbo all the time. We'll see in 5-10 years.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

I'm trying to wrap my brain around the "more heat" claims. Does a 2.0T motor put out more heat than a 2.0 liter normally aspirated motor? Yes, undoubtedly, however, does a ~250 hp 2.0T put out more heat than say, a ~250 hp 3.2 liter V6? I'm thinking no.

losiglow

iTrader: (1)

Common sense tells me yes, simply because the exhaust is recirculated through the turbo whereas it simply exists in a naturally aspirated engine. If nothing else, there would be additional piping that would be hot and precautions would need to be taken with components near that piping. But I have no real life experience with it.

mrgold35

I can see how the exhaust gases can heat the turbo and the area before/after the turbo to a higher temp because of the concentrated restriction into the turbo blades. Factor in the higher avg rpms reached for an I-4 compared to a NA V-6 in driving (more combustion/heat per rpms for turbos). Add in the engine oil used to lubricate the turbo bearing can reach a higher temp compared to engine oil in the crank case. My 08 RDX turbo and 1st Cat was right next to the engine and firewall compared to the cat located further away in my NA engines. I can see how a turbo engine can run a little hotter in the engine bay compared to a NA V-6.

Madd Dog

russianDude

Madd Dog

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

I am an engineer, I've worked for Chrysler, Volvo, and Mercedes-Benz, and "I don't know this". Depending upon the context of the discussion there is no doubt there are zones in the engine bay which can be hotter on a turbocharged engine than a normally aspirated engine, however, on the whole, it is safe to assume turbocharged engines generate less heat per horsepower produced than a normally aspirated engine. Why do I say that? The thing is, a huge percentage of the heat generated by any given engine is from the combustion of fuel; an engine with a lower Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC) will virtually always produce less overall heat (assuming the same fuel type used). Given a 2.0T will typically have a lower BSFC than say a 3.2 liter V6 with similar output numbers, it is safe to assume the V6 will generate more overall heat.

russianDude

I am confused, who cares about more heat or less heat if the turbo engines are very reliable?!

nuke

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

I tend to agree; if there is no difference in reliability between say a 2.0T (which I prefer for low-end torque) and a 3.2 V6 (which I prefer for smoothness and the sound they make), then the choice of which engine will fall to other factors.

crxb

Honda CR-V Affected by Engine Troubles

The automaker says a fix is coming to its top-selling SUV after consumers complain of stalled engines and other problems

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-...ngine-trouble/

samiam_68

I've owned a couple of turbo cars that were rock solid, even though I beat the living daylights out of them. A Supra turbo 3.0 (3600lb) and Forester XT 2.5 (3200lb). Owned both for 10+ years. I am, however, a little hesitant about today's tiny turbos moving tons of weight around - The RDX is 3900lb with a 2.0 engine and CR-V is 3500lb with 1.5 engine. These tiny engines are being run at stress levels close to those of race cars, so I hope the engineering is up to snuff to make them reliable. Race car engines need to be rebuilt every few thousand miles. The same should not apply to consumer products.

Yotrek

russianDude

KeithL

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Agreed, in the case of the new 1.5T and 2.0T Honda engines, the turbos aren't the issue, it is the programming of the direct injection causing the oil dilution problems.

securityguy

I am unaware of the 2.0T having any issues and this engine has been out longer than the 1.5T. All of the issues that I have uncovered are isolated to the 1.5T. If anyone has anything factual to post related to the 2.0T and oil dilution, please do.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

All I have is just what I've read on a couple of Honda web sites. It does stand to reason the 2.0T will have many of the same issues as other direct injection engines Honda and otherwise.

Midnight Mystery

TacoBello

Pretty sure the 1.5T was out in the civic before the 2.0T showed up in the CTR or Accord or RDX.

securityguy

What I have read is that the 2.0T has been out in Europe and Japan years before the 1.5T was introduced into the latest Civic. You are thinking US and you need to think globally.

cruiserchuck

According to this article from Autoweek, Honda announced both the 1.5 and the 2.0 turbo engine in 2013. I assume many more of the 1.5 were sold, since in Europe and Japan, folks seem more interested in fuel economy than we are here in the US.

https://autoweek.com/article/car-new...-engine-family

JustMe...

I just joined this forum due to this issue. I was all set to replace my wife's 2010 CR-V EX-L with the 2018/19 Touring CR-V. I started seeing the issues pop up last year. Lack of heat and oil in gas, mainly in the winter months in colder climates. I live in the Chicago area. Honda was not saying a thing, which had/has me concerned. I really like the 5th gen CR-V and have always liked the RDX. I was surprised at how long it took for the RDX to pick up the new chassis. Since the issue had not been addressed, it may turn out to be a blessing in disguise. I can now get the RDX with the new chassis! My only concern is the 2.0l turbo may have the same issue. Not seeing a mention of it on this forum, as of yet, has me feeling less worried. I'm probably going to hold off until early next year, so I can get a good feel for how the new RDX survives its first winter. Here's hoping for the best!

Madd Dog

JustMe...

Just the direct injection part, which always has potential for some gas mixing with the oil. I'm just hoping they got it right with this one from the start!

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

You beat me to the punch. The direct injection bit is the common denominator in both engines.

Madd Dog

crxb

text from previous link above

Honda CR-V Affected by Engine Troubles

The automaker says a fix is coming to its top-selling SUV after consumers complain of stalled engines and other problems

By Jeff Plungis
October 05, 2018
2.2K SHARES

Kurt Witzig first noticed something wrong with his CR-V—Honda’s top-selling vehicle in the U.S.—when it was just 4 months old. On a cold January day earlier this year, just a few miles from Witzig’s home in Duluth, Minn., his SUV stalled while he was out doing morning errands. Witzig got the car restarted but couldn’t coax it over 20 mph. So he steered the limping SUV to the nearest Honda dealer.

After two weeks of being unable to diagnose the problem, the dealer finally determined that gas was improperly leaking into the oil, Witzig said, though the mechanic still wasn’t sure how to fix the problem. After learning that other CR-V owners with the same problem ended up getting the oil changed, Witzig asked for the same stopgap solution. And finally, frustrated by what he saw as Honda’s inability or unwillingness to fix a potentially serious engine problem, Witzig traded in his 5-month-old CR-V for a Toyota RAV4, taking a $7,000 loss in the process.


MORE ON CAR SAFETY
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Car Safety GuideIt turns out that Witzig isn’t alone. He’s one of nine Consumer Reports members who have reported this problem to us this year. Dozens of other Honda CR-V owners have complained about similar experiences to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. And as Witzig learned when he started researching the issue online, hundreds more have aired their concerns on online forums devoted to Honda owners.

Many CR-V owners were also alarmed to learn that Honda recalled 380,000 CR-Vs and Civics in China in February after similar troubles were reported there. And they were frustrated that Honda wasn’t taking similar steps in this country.

Now, after owner complaints dating back to early 2017 and after repeated questions from Consumer Reports, Honda said in a statement that it is working on a fix. “Honda has been investigating the situation and developing a remedy, which we hope to make available through authorized Honda dealers by mid-November 2018,” company spokesman Chris Martin said. The repair will be covered by the warranty, Martin said, and will also be applied to 2019 model-year CR-Vs before the 2019s go on sale.

But the automaker didn’t say exactly how it would repair the SUVs, how many cars in the U.S. might be affected, whether it would cover all CR-V owners or only those who have experienced problems, or why it took the company so long to acknowledge the situation and identify a fix for American consumers.

The Honda statement also said that it doesn’t consider the problem a safety threat—a conclusion Consumer Reports auto safety experts question. “There are many ways stalling can be a safety issue, so if these cars are stalling, they need to be recalled,” says David Friedman, vice president for advocacy at Consumer Reports and former acting director of NHTSA. “Even if it turns out there’s no specific safety defect, Honda still should take care of their customers and notify them to go to a dealership for a free repair.”

Consumers, including Witzig, are angered by how long it has taken Honda to address the problem. “What really frustrates me is they’re still selling that 2017 engine,” Witzig says. “They’re selling them right and left, and they know they’ve got an issue, and that’s wrong.”


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Oil and Gas Don’t Mix

The engine issue involves 2017 and 2018 CR-V SUVs with Honda’s latest 1.5-liter turbo engine. Honda has sold more than 500,000 CR-Vs in the U.S. with that engine in those two model years. While Martin, at Honda, did not say how many of those cars might be affected, he did say, “The irregular high oil level condition is not as widespread as some internet chatter may imply.”

Honda CR-V owners who reached out to CR and NHTSA often said they believe gasoline is finding its way into their CR-V’s oil system. That’s something that shouldn’t routinely happen, experts say.

John German—a veteran automotive engineer and senior fellow at the International Council on Clean Transportation, who previously worked at Honda, Chrysler, and the Environmental Protection Agency—says that the problem of fuel mixing with oil probably stems from one of two causes: improperly designed fuel injectors that spray fuel directly onto the cylinder walls or the engine not heating up enough to vaporize gasoline left over in an engine cylinder.

Either could cause fuel to mix with the oil, diluting it and making it less effective at protecting an engine’s moving parts, say CR’s car experts. And over time, that could seriously damage the engine.



Gas can sometimes mix with oil in 2017 and 2018 Honda CR-Vs with 1.5-liter engines, possibly causing stalling and engine damage. It could also lead to stalling or loss of power during short trips or low-speed driving, such as in heavy traffic, especially in cold weather. And indeed, many (though not all) of the complaints to CR and NHTSA come from drivers in cold-weather states.

Honda’s recall in China, of certain 2018 CR-Vs as well as certain 2016 and 2017 Civics, identified similar problems, according to a foreign recall report filed March 6 with NHTSA. (Note that Civics sold in the U.S. do not use the same turbo engine.) The report said CR-V owners should take their cars to the dealers to address “an inappropriate fuel-injection setting” that can cause unburnt fuel to seep into the engine oil pan at temperatures of -4° F and below, usually when the vehicles are operated for short periods.

Only a Cold-Weather Problem?

In response to CR’s questions, Honda acknowledged that the problem had been reported in U.S. vehicles, too, saying it primarily affects CR-Vs in “the northern areas of the country during extreme cold weather conditions combined with short, intermittent driving.”

While the problem may be more common in those circumstances, it also has been reported in warmer temperatures. In the NHTSA database, there are accounts from California, Kentucky, Oregon, Tennessee, and Virginia—as well as colder-weather states such as Maine, Minnesota, New York, and Wisconsin. And CR has heard from CR-V owners not just in Minnesota but also in Delaware, New Mexico, and even Texas.

For example, Jithin Daniel, a 30-year-old aircraft engineer in Dallas, noticed gasoline mixing with his oil last winter when the temperature dipped into the 40s. That may be cold for Dallas, but it’s nothing out of the ordinary for the winter in much of the U.S., and well above the temperatures Honda said the problem is primarily limited to.

“People should be able to drive their SUVs in cold weather,” says Jake Fisher, director of automotive testing at Consumer Reports. “They shouldn’t have to avoid making short trips because that doesn’t fully warm up the engine. They shouldn’t have to worry about stalling in subzero temperatures. This may be a rare problem, but it does happen, and when it happens, it should be addressed.”

Why No Safety Recall in the U.S.?

Honda told NHTSA that while its action in China was technically called a “safety recall,” that was simply because of that country’s different regulatory structure.

When asked by CR, the company failed to clarify how or if engines sold in China differ from those sold in the U.S. But Honda did say that it does not believe that the problem affects the safe operation of the vehicle or that it violates any U.S laws or regulations. And Honda told NHTSA that it would probably fix the problem through a “product update campaign” or a warranty extension.

Honda may want to avoid calling it a safety issue in part because of cost: In the U.S., problems covered by safety recalls must be fixed free of charge and companies must notify all known owners about the need for repairs, says CR’s Friedman, the former NHTSA administrator. NHTSA also gets a say in how many vehicles need to be covered and whether the company’s recall efforts are sufficient.

But in the case of product updates, all these details are left to the discretion of the carmaker, Friedman says. Sometimes automakers tell vehicle owners of available repairs only if they complain to their dealers. And even extended warranties eventually expire, while a free repair under a recall never does.

Got a Confidential News Tip for CR?

If so, we want to hear from you.

In a statement to Consumer Reports, NHTSA acknowledged receiving several complaints about the 2017 and 2018 CR-V regarding the smell of gasoline in the passenger compartment and dilution of the engine oil with gasoline. And NHTSA said it has discussed the problem with Honda. But the agency said it hadn’t gotten complaints about stalling or loss of engine power.

But in reviewing the agency’s complaints database, Consumer Reports found two instances where CR-V owners who were complaining of oil dilution in their cars also reported stalling or engine failure.

For example, on April 17, 2018, a CR-V owner in Montana Mines, W.Va., wrote: “Oil dilution diagnosed by dealer after multiple visits, no heat in cold weather, displays and audios going haywire while driving. Stalled six times while backing up on different occasions, safety features not working properly while driving.” (Note that reports to the NHTSA database do not include names.)

Three of the nine consumers who reported oil dilution in CR’s reliability survey also reported either stalling or loss of engine performance.

Honda Delays

Honda appears to have learned about the potential problem in early 2017, but the company has not had a consistent fix for owners beyond suggesting frequent free oil changes, according to complaints from CR’s members and in the NHTSA database.

For example, when CR member Bill Haughton, of Newark, Del., noticed the problem, he said his dealer told him there was nothing seriously wrong with the car. But to be safe, the dealer changed the oil early, when the car’s computer indicated that it still had 80 percent of its life left and well before the normally recommended 7,500 miles of driving. Others have told us or NHTSA that they needed to get their oil changed even more often—every 1,000 or even 500 miles in some cases.

Other vehicle owners have been told to take longer trips that include highway driving to help warm up the engine. Some have had their fuel injectors or spark plugs replaced. One CR-V owner even told us that the dealer replaced the engine—but that the new engine has the same problem.

All that has been frustrating, and concerning, to CR-V owners. Daniel, in Dallas, says he’s had Hondas for years and has trusted their reliability, but now he’s concerned that his engine may not last as long as he had expected. Haughton agrees. “My biggest concern is premature engine failure,” Haughton says. “If you’re lubricating the engine with gasoline, you’re not going to get 200,000 miles out of it.”

In explaining why Honda addressed the problem sooner in China than in the U.S., the statement from Martin at Honda pointed to possible differences between the vehicles and markets in both countries. “Vehicles are more complex than other consumer goods, like mobile phones, and any changes have to be carefully considered in light of vehicle differences, localized consumer preferences,” and each country’s regulations, Martin said.

Another reason Honda may have acted more quickly in China: pressure from social media. Reuters and others have reported that Honda devised a recall plan for the car in China about a month after Honda owners there deluged the company with complaints on Weibo, the country’s Twitter equivalent, and other social media.

What Honda, and Owners, Should Do Now

Consumer Reports has recommended the CR-V in each of the past 21 years, and the car has received high marks in our annual car reliability survey.

Still, there’s no good reason gas should mix with engine oil in a new car, and nobody should have to take that car in for oil changes every few hundred or thousand miles, Friedman says.


Here’s some advice for current or potential CR-V owners:

• If you have a 2017 or 2018 Honda CR-V with a 1.5 turbo engine, watch for the warning signs of this oil-fuel problem. Most important, check the oil frequently to see whether the level seems high, something almost everyone we talked with said they noticed. Also watch for other signs, including stalling, loss of power, a smell of gas in the passenger compartment, and heaters that don’t work well or at all in cold weather.
• If your car is experiencing any of the symptoms above, take it to the dealer. Tell the dealer that you know that Honda hopes to have a fix in November, and you would like the repair done as soon as possible.
• If you’ve noticed the problem for several months, and Honda has failed to address it, consider looking into your state’s lemon law, which could require the company to buy the car back. Haughton, in Delaware, said he is thinking about taking that step. (The Center for Auto Safetymaintains a list of state lemon laws, or you can go to your state attorney general’s website.)
• You could also consider taking Honda to small claims court, though the amount you can win could be limited to your repair cost.
• Note that some 2017 Honda CR-Vs are subject to a separate, unrelated recall related to possible fuel leaks. If that recall applies to your car, get that repair done right away and consider asking the dealer about the company’s proposed fix to the oil-fuel problem at the same time. (To see whether this or any other recall applies to your Honda, or any other vehicle, go to NHTSA’s recall page.)
• If you’re currently in the market for a Honda CR-V, you could consider waiting until the 2019 model becomes available, sometime this fall. Honda said it will have addressed the problem by then.
• If you have a CR-V with the oil-dilution problem and experience stalling or loss of engine power, report it to both Honda and NHTSA. The automaker and the regulator could change their approaches to the problem if they get enough similar complaints. To report a problem to NHTSA, call 888-327-4236 or go to one of the agency’s websites, NHTSA.gov or safercar.gov. To contact Honda customer service, call 800-999-1009 or go to its customer service website.

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Has your 2017 or 2018 Honda CR-V stalled unexpectedly or had other engine troubles?Some owners of 2017 or 2018 Honda CR-Vs with 1.5 liter turbo engines have complained about their cars stalling unexpectedly or losing power, often in cold weather. Others have noticed that the engine’s oil level was high or that the oil smelled of gas.

If you own a 2017 or 2018 Honda CR-V, have you experienced similar problems? Did you talk with the dealer or a mechanic about it? If so, what did they do? We'd like to hear.


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Jeff Plungis

I grew up in Detroit's Golden Age, driving a glamorous, vintage ’65 Olds Cutlass in high school and my college years. Later, I experienced the joys and expense of European engineering through a succession of cars made by VW, Volvo, and Saab. That was before the reliable and spacious Honda minivan. Now I'm covering auto safety, new technology, and corporate accountability for CR from Washington, D.C. Follow me on Twitter @jplungis.

More From Consumer Reports

Colorado Guy AF Ret.

Are the Gen 1 RDX's "Direct Injection?" My guess is no. That is the key to these fuel issues. And, Honda Motor Corp. is not the only car company that is or has had
similar issues with small 4 cyl, turbo, direct injection engines. The anomaly is not new to this type of engine set up.

EE4Life

2017-2018 Honda CR-V: Understanding Oil Dilution

JustMe...

LOL. Nothing to see here... Move along!

EE4Life

Honda released the following TSBs for the 2017-2018 Honda CR-V:

TSB 18-114 - Product Update: 2017-18 CR-V: Software Update with A/C Control Unit Replacement, DTC P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, P0304, or P0172
Applies To: 2017-18 CR-V - EX, EX-L, Touring - Check the iN VIN status for eligibility
https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/...nu/A18-114.PDF

TSB 18-124 - Product Update: 2017-18 CR-V: Software Update DTC P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, P0304, or P0172
Applies To: 2017-18 CR-V - EX, EX-L, Touring - Check the iN VIN status for eligibility
https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/...nu/A18-124.PDF

securityguy

^^^what do these TSB's have to do with oil dilution?

JustMe...

They are supposed to fix the two issues, which are, excessive oil dilution and poor heating performance in the winter.

russianDude