pgatour1

HAHAHA, What felonies, I have no idea what you are talking about.

And I know i'm just giving you a hard time, I admitted in the thread though I know nothing about cell phones I was just comparing what I have noticed is better and not.

That's my point BITCH

and it's you're, remember how grammar is needed I mean this should be as fucking good as a college paper, I had no idea what you wanted to say because of the error.

kensteele

Yeah I know, I keep coming into these threads late and ending up having to say alot, probably most everyone's not even reading these. LOL

Sarlacc

I read them, I love learning about stuff like this.

fbazakos

oh wow.

i was up north hunting all weekend. i'll have to set the record straight for all you tonight.

siggy. i will try to explain a few things later, i know your work in broadband fixed wireless, but things are not exactly the same.

sarlacc23 you have to understand that I do not speak or write down anything that I'm not sure of. that is what i find most annoying about the internet, is people just run their mouths. my eyes are completely on the entire industry. i am just trying to help, but you can ignore me if you chose, or ask me not to communicate with you and i will respect that. i cannot help that all the facts and data point to a certain place. if you would like, in the future, i can simply just post up the facts and data, and allow everybody to form their own opinions ... would that be better? i just don't want to come across in the way you are portraying me now, that is not who I am or why I spend time out of time here.

SiGGy

Fotis I wish you would stop and listen...

I don't work in fixed wireless. It's just one of the products we chose to market that I showed you.

I have tested 10+ vendors that are non line of sight man... we have ran a few markets with non line of sight broadband. Do a seach for my username and FREE broadband internet in texas. You'll see I was letting folks sign up for it... (b.t.w it was a non line of sight roaming product) 8Mb downstream 2Mb up...



As I said, I could probably show you a few things...

Shit man, not even 4 weeks ago I had a test cell site setup where I ran tests bi-directional over 70 test modems going between cells. UDP upstream and downstream. TCP up and down. Using custom apps I wrote. All of the modem were mobile and automated via my code. NTP time sync'd via GPS. Using my code in both Linux and Winblows.

And yes doing handoffs between cells. I invited Ken to come check it out. heh. Mobile IP isn't anything new to me man LOL

Just coincidence we did it in KC this time.

I'd get more into details but I signed a NDA. Like all of the other tests I have done. Probably why I didn't mention any of it last time we met.

fbazakos

no no, i fully understand. i'm not sure why you took my first comment the way you did.

i'm sure there are many aspects of what you do that I have no idea, and you could show me many things. i am not surprised at this, there are many more people that work for my vendors, their training companies, and even the people that built the standards who are more knowledgable that both of us combined times ten.

and yes, you told me about this the last time i was in KC. it is very impressive, and if you can deliver that kind of throughput on a nationwide system, let me know. that is on the roadmap for 3G data, it's called 3G3X ... of course you knew about that.

i made that small comment because (unless you now work for PCS in 3G1X-RTT data engineering) what I do and how it works isn't what you've seen.

i hate to point something out erroneous about what you just said, but what are you trying to say about handing off between cells. of course you can handoffs between cells. either you misspoke ... or ... not sure how you are relating SIP and MIP with a cell site handoff...

let me explain the call flow so it will make sense. i don't have it, i'll sleep either way tonight, just if you're interested. maybe you can make 15+ vendors ...

i'll get more into it later tonight. don't roll your eyes at me, i'm not some kid that is just rambling. :p

SiGGy

Actually I do now

No joke, took another job.


I meant handoffs meaning it keeps your mobile IP tunnel going between cells so your IP doesn't change. Every vendor had a different mechanism to handle this i tested.



I just like messing with ya Hey I do it to everyone, so don't feel singled out

fbazakos

So are you in PCS now or not?

Oh, and I don't feel singled out, but I am gonna hand your ass to you in after the football when I get back on here at set the record straight

If you did get into 3G data in PCS, then you are about 3 years BEHIND me ... which seems evident ... because in 3G1X you never have an IP change between cells on the same switch.

but don't worry, i'll take you to SCHOOL in a bit :p AFTER the football game...

SiGGy

Doubtful,

I have been up in PCS's data technology along with mine, since we have bene working with the vision data team since we started at sprint 3 years ago :P

And yes, I just took a job /w vision data.

Anytime you want to go to town discussing SNA/QAM modulation/Error/bit per hertz/Mobile IP/error correction bits/phase array antennas/beam forming/antenna patterns... I can go on all day

I'm game

and then we can move to the IP layer. And how the products handle it. AAA servers, mobile IP for cisco. I've worked with a ton of products. I will not say my knowledge is strong in any of them specifically. But I have a good knowledge of all of them.

Pick a subject, not something specific to your stuff, and bring it on

Rather do it in person, lets wait until you get into town. That way I can be sure your not a google/book expert

peace out, I'm out for the night now anyway... (so if you do reply be patient until tomorrow)

kensteele

Hehe.

vuduvida

I enjoy reading posts like that also... good info kensteele!

fbazakos

I was actually concerned about the same thing. But out of respect, I wasn't going to accuse you of anything. ... not sure why you would say that about me, have I given you reason to think so?

What is it that you do now, specifically, just out of pure curiosity ... and congratulations by the way.

'course, I live and breathe this stuff, so if you are admittadly not strong, than perhaps we can keep it to an overview to keep things easier on yourself i haven't just been "working with other teams" or just starting a new job. but you know all this so I'm not sure why I have to explain this to you.

Anyways, why don't you clarify what it is that you are trying to say about keeping a IP address between cells. Let's start with that.

i'm in disbelief that you suggested what you did. I have a complete working knowledge of the 3G1X data system. I'm not sure I will get over it before my visit next week. Cell->BTS->MSC->PDSN->HA->AAA->POP ... there is MIP in 3G1X for you big boy. wanna know how it works with a motorola IOS switch, motorola EMX switch, nortel MTX switch, Lucent 5E switch, Lucent PCF, Nortel Ski Supreme/Shasta, Motorola AN, Commworks PDSN/HA/FA, Bridgewater/Ericsson ... all of it.

Also, 3G1X reuses IP, they didn't reinvent the wheel, only what they had to in order for it to work. No point in discussing IP layers. The RP tunnel is the only revelant layer, of course you knew this you just mentioned IP layer because ...

i'm not claiming to have an all encompassing knowledge of wireless data, but 2G and 3G CDMA data, you better be "STRONG"

don't front. there is a reason why I am not changing jobs.

kensteele

Get over UNTIL your next visit. After all, what else are we going to talk about when you come down to boring Kansas City....except GO GO GO GO CHIEFS CHIEFS CHIEFS CHIEFS CHIEFS CHIEFS !!!!!!!

Queens suck, Ill be in the dome on 12/20 for that game. Wanna go?

fbazakos

Siggy doesn't hang with us as much, so he doesn't know the rules about talking shop. All I want to do is after work.

Where are you seats for the game? Wanna come up to my box seats???

fbazakos

Well I hope you switched between cells. Seeing as how a PCS cellsite has maybe a 15-30 mile range out in the non-populated areas.

Of course, I said MSC's ... which stands for Mobile Switching Center. You cannot handoff between MSC's using simple IP. Since sprint does not offer mobile IP for 3G1X, therein lies your first error in this comedy of errors.

So like I said, you definately dropped on the handoffs on MSC borders. The 3G1X connection would have to reinitialize, grab and IP from the new pool. The entire RP tunnel would be torn down as a result, and not many applications can survive those lower layers being torn down. VPN, of course is a simple example.

Also, were we able to determine if sprint offers unlimited 3G data for a price as you claim? Tough to use the phrase "unlimited vision" to this effect, because they have bundled a few services under the same name ... 3G data doesn't appear to be a part of it.

fbazakos

Your application and data test set encompasses perhaps 5% of what we observe during 3G data call testing.

I will start a new thread here so everybody can benefit and understand the cdma200 network architecture, standards, etc. But everything you mentioned above does not in any way test how the 3G works. All the end to end protocols and IP services and testing therin (as you mentioned) are good for one thing only, to test the customer experience. But to optimize, improve, engineer, and build one of these, you need to understand MIP (RFC 2002), IS-2000 (Air I/F), IS-2001 (IOS between BTS & MSC), IS-41 family, RADIUS (RFC2338/9 to the AAA), RLP (IS-707). You need to watch FER, but what about Ec/IO, Rx and Tx power on your device, sevice options, Forward and Reverse fundamental and supplemental channels ... too much to explain here ... look out for a new thread.

Sure you want to test a customer experience. We do it to ... that's what legal wants to see, what can we claim and the customers can see. So you bust out your laptop and do a speed test on 2wire.com ... try to squeeze more througput by changing protocols ... like it matters.

Don't feel bad ... Telephia hasn't figured it out either. But we'll help them.

mikeymobiles

you guys are nerds...

fbazakos

bars do not mean hardly anything on a cell phone. there is no standard, it is a crap shoot.

if you want to get some information out of your phone, go into the test mode, (for that LG VX6000 it is Menu 0, then six 0's for the security code, go into field tests, the test screen) ... you can look at Ec/I0 (interference) and Rx Power ... you pretty much need to be at >-15 for Ec/I0 and >-100 dB for Rx power in order to be able to make a phone call. Cell phones on the PCS frequency have a particular issue with interference in buildings, so your sprint phone may be seeing the pilot (ie: showing you bars) but not able to process a phone call. of course there are a million other reason like channel element blocking, or switch capacity issues, but i'm just giving you a BIT more info to look at than the bars.

fbazakos

Well I guess that first part there makes me right, and Siggy and sarlacc23 both wrong. Not that I really care, just don't accuse me of being wrong when what I'm saying is correct.

I mentioned nothing about the quality or coverage about the sprint network in this thread. Sprint PCS does not have Mobile IP. I have repeated myself many times. Siggy is confused as to what it means, because he think MIP means a handoff between cells. For 3G1X-RTT that is not the case. Once you guys understand that, I will tell you about MIP w/DMU or static IP's ... as service that only Verizon Wireless offers at this time. We can get into a seperate discussion about sprint coverage and quality, but I have been talking about network ability and service offerings. There is no tricks or anything on my part. I am limited in sharing my knowledge and experience with you all, but it goes way past the press releases and marketing propoganda that sprint send you, ken. There are major infrastructure differences between the two systems. The performance numbers, both finacialy and network, do not lie. Sprint does not compare. Why is sprint going after at&t for business customers? Why not go after Verizon? Sprint PCS is being beaten (along with the rest of industry) across the board by Verizon wireless. The Sprint PCS footprint is smaller, the quality is less, and it just pisses you off. You took the job -- don't blame it on me. But then again, this thread isn't about performance.

kensteele

Nerd might not be the exact word....

He's fishing for info; Siggy, best not give up too much.

Sprint has unlimited vision for data cards. That's a fact, it's on the books, and it is public; and it's better than Verizon's [plan] because it will hold an unlimited data call all over the Midwest all up and down I-35 and across I-90.

fbazakos

Well we might have a poser on our hands. That's about it. Just wondering what the guys new job is. I KNOW the technical part of the discussion.

Out of curiousity, what is the cost for unlimited 3G data from Sprint? What if I don't have a PCMCIA card? What if I drive more than 5 miles off either side of those interstates? What happens to my 3G data call when I pass Albert Lea heading south and hand off the an Iowa RSA? What happens to my call when I head west of Fargo, ND on I-94 ... and I can make digital phone calls, but not use vision?

They are pretty much rhetorical, because I already know the answers ... do you?

Honestly answer those questions, and you don't have to buy lunch from the last time you LOST a bet with me regarding cellular services :P

kensteele

Thanks for reminding me I owe you lunch for Verizon launching that POS service they call PTT just days before Labour Day 2003.

KCPreki11

Do you have 3 different numbers? How does Sprint allow you to have 3 phones on at once?

mikeymobiles

u need 3 numbers...looks like adam is a business man..

SiGGy

1st and furthermost. Customer experience is what matters, how the system handles IP/UDP. If the IP layer is shit, I don't care what the RF system is capable of.

Also it may just be a layer II system also.

UDP bandwith testing is the only way to test for aggregate throughput. For a realworld experience.

if you have a car that does 200mph on paper, and then only does 140mph in the real world. Do YOU think the customer care if you keep telling them it does 200mph on paper?

RADIUS and AAA have nothing to do but authentications to for roaming IP.... move on. your digging for Acrnoyms here...

BTS is I assume you base station. Nice acronoym to toss in.

When it comes down to it. How it handles IP is all that matters. UDP will show your aggregate throughputs. TCP/IP will not.

Dude you gave me a acrobyn fest. And no real world experience...

here's some things that matter in real world RF data testing. That you (cough cough) forgot.

SNA/SNR (signal to noise ratio). Which you cannot get from the phone. (mabye with some spec manual I don't have in a hidden menu) SNA is probably the most important thing, next to watching your QAM constelation.

FER I assume is your error correction bits. And that changes depending on the vendor you are using. And really doesn't mean anything. As they are error correction bits, and watching your QAM consteltation will give you an idea if you are getting good sybols.

You have really just dumped some acronyms and RFC's out...


What QAM is Verizon using? What size channel are you using 2.5Mhtz 5Mhtz? How many contention channels? can you have collision on your concention channels? All of those matter for your data xfers too. Whats your bits per hertz come out to be?

Can your product handle different QAM modulations? is it fixed? Is it based on SNR?

What does a phase array antenna do? Why is it helpful?




Sorrry but how the system handles multiple users, and real world traffic is really the only test that matters when it comes down to it. All of the RF stuff is usefull for finding things that interfere. And the RF is only 1/2 of it, how the system handles IP which is what it will be doing is very important. A lot of rf errors will mean a lot of TCP retransmission. I.e. problems in both areas.

802.16 and 802.20 are worth reading about if your going to dump RFC information to me. Look like your a good google guy.
Hell anyone could search and paste the stuff you did.

Real world operators know SNA/SNR/QAM/contention information/degree antenna/antenna pattern.

I didn't see any of that in your post. As I said... doing this in person would be way more fun I bet.

soopa

So what your saying is... I could hop on I-90... 1 mile from my house..... and drive all the way to your house...

AND BE ONLINE THE WHOLE TIME WITH SPRINT?!

now thats cool.

SiGGy

I sure hope your not talking about me Mr. Acronym. :pokestick:

I have posted real world info needed for setting up a system.

soopa

thanks for clarifying what i already said

SiGGy

Guess I should have used a different acronym than QAM, so ignore it please. LOL, last vendor we tested had some other crazy form of modulation. I get them all mixed up in my brain.

Anyway, I'm eagerly awaiting answers.

SiGGy

RF is 50% IP is other 50% man.

I can only test 50% while im driving to and from chicago And it was a legit test. Sprint claims 144kb I saw it. Including IP headers.


You were in disbelief. Then tried to qualify real testing, or additional testing.

This was real, what counts is what the user sees. My analogy in the large post is dead on.

The #1 problem with wireless data is how well it handles IP, not RF. I can show you many vendors who have RF that will blow your mind. And do things you probably never imagined. But their handling of IP is shit. So regardless that the modem is getting 120db of signal. And the RF is perfect. It still doesn't work...

I tested one vendor who did beam forming to the customer (so to speak). And it gave a 18db gain! But it performed the worst for IP tests.

So all of our RF engineers loved it! But the reality is, it didn't work.

I'm done poking at you now. I think you'll see I have actually done work a little more in debth that you imagined. I only mention the UDP/IP tests, because really they are all that count. And in all honesty all I can test on the PCS service at the moment.

kensteele

Absolutely...yes you could.

SiGGy

yes, it is. I was shocked it worked as good as it did. (the entire point of this thread, lol, now it has changed to just fuck with Fotis)

I turned it on thinking for sure it wouldn't work. LOL, I was dead wrong.

kensteele

Oh and I might also add, with your phone on a car charger/car kit, you can make a voice call and stay on the phone call the entire way, too. All on the largest all-digital nationwide PCS network.

SiGGy

I saw just messing with ya, since you were in disbelief with this one.

I'm not a RF guy, but unfortunetly since we have a lack of folks to do stuff I had to be the "all in wonder" for my skills sets in the past few years.

I'm a big UNIX SA. And that's what I'll be doing for Vision too...

No RF/tweaking...

I'll handle everything that goes on the phone that isn't a voice call. And is not RF related for vision. So in a way i can focus more on what I really want to do. While the RF side does interest me it's not something I would want to do in the long run...

Seems you like it, to me even with all the setup/tweaking I have done with it. It's still not my cup of tea. The last few tests we did the vendors came and made sure their equipment was setup perfectly. Many 20hour days. One vendor even had a calibration cable that went to the antenna. So the systems self calibrated! pretty cool. Anyway, sorry if I blew a gasket wirth ya. Just was playing along...

I can show ya the PCS buker and PCS NOCs this time if you want vs. what we had left of the broadband NOC.

Anyway, peace out

fbazakos

Well you should probably stop, because you obviously aren't involed in 3G1X data.

But like I said in my previous post, I am writing up something for you that I will start in a new thread. I threw some things out there to see how you'd respond.

Your response is how I was able to determine your knowledge about 3G1X data.

I would prefer to not waste time in here, but I'll get into it a bit, and the go back to my write up. I'll declare it copyrighted and then you can run around the web looking for that information to see if it came from my head, or if you're going to make the mistake of calling me a liar for a third time.

Customer experience does matter, thank you for repeating me, but you don't waste your time engineering around something you don't control 90% of. What do I mean? Well the internet of course is a shared medium that is a complete wild card. You have to have some internal test point, before the POP. Did you do this in your testing? At what point in the 3G1X data network is this device? I'm willing to bet you did not do this or even think of it. In the end, you have to deliver performance numbers that customers can verify ... do you design and engineering around that???

It is also a waste of time looking at data that you cannot control. UDP, IP are all carried over from regular internet type traffic. I'm not an RF engineer, there are other people that look at antenna arrays and configurations ... but the RF transport is the same that is used for the voice calls. nobody went around realigning antennas, boosting power, etc.

The parameters that I mentioned, which you horribly mis-identified, are what can be controlled, and are what somebody like myself looks at to orchestrate the development of this type of network. Somebody did this for Sprint, obviously it wasn't you.

Oh, here is some BASIC CDMA information since you are getting into the business now, so you don't embaress yourself (again) at work. Channel size is fixed in CDMA --- 1.25 Mhz. There are about 120 available Walsh codes (hence the name CDMA -- code division) on a 3G1X carrier. There were about half of that available on 2G carriers. This is how the vendors sold sprint on them doubling the capacity by going to 3G ... course now they have siggy to explain why it doesnt exact work like that. In a 3G1X data call you take one walsh code (just like a voice call) and set that up as you fundamental channel (FCH) that gives you the initial 9.6Kbps. As more channel elements are available, you can burst up to 144 Kbps, by adding supplemental channels (SCH), which incidentally take up another walsh code. So when 3G3X comes out in a few years, you're sharing three 1.25 Mhz channels among your users. Then we will see a large increase in throughput. I'll fully explain this in the new thread, just to give you something to shove into those empty pockets in your brain. :P

fbazakos

You and Siggy have a fundamental misunderstand of Sprint's 3G data network.

Sprint is running Simple IP.

Sprint CANNOT handoff from one MSC to the next.

Verizon is running Mobile IP.

Verizon CAN handoff from on MSC to the next.

Point being, if Soopa were to get in his car with a Sprint 3G data device, and a Verizon data device, and drive southbound to Florida (let's assume for the sake of this post that both carriers have complete coverage all the way), the following would occur:

1. At some point, Soopa would hit the last cell site that the Sprint MSC in Albany controls. He would handoff to a New York City MSC. Because IP addressing is handled in the MSC (at the PCF) the call would drop because the new cell (new MSC) would assign a new IP from it's pool.

2. The same thing occurs with Verizon. But Verizon has implemented a Commworks (now UTStarcom) Home Agent (HA) that pulls the IP assignment away from the MSC. So you can handoff between systems, and keep you call going, along with the same IP address. Fact of the matter is, I get the same IP address anywhere I connect in the country (static IP).

So the Verizon call would stay up, but the Sprint call would drop everytime Soopa handed off to a new system (MSC).

Again, I will explain this to you in my new thread. Which just keeps getting longer and longer, since you all keep making uninformed posts.

Before you come back to me and tell me I'm wrong, make sure you understand the following 100%: What is Simple IP and Mobile IP to the 3G1X world. What does MSC mean.

Now you have gone and confused poor Soopa. He probably looks like a deer in headlights right now

fbazakos

Why mess around with the "largest all-digital nationwide PCS network" when you can have the "Largest and Best Network Nationwide"



Wow I hate marketing. Only in America. I feel bad for wireless consumers.

fbazakos

Well I was in disbelief that you would actually insinuate on here that I'm surfing google for my information. Especially when you know for a fact that I'm buried up to my neck in exactly what this thread is talking about. I'll throw it back at you, but I'm not going to publicly question your integrity, that wasn't very nice.

You know the rules about talking shop, but we can definately take a little tour, not a high priority though. I'd like to get hammered, then go in there and puke on their HLR ... that would piss off about 15 million people. If you're up here ever I'll take you into all the MSC's ... I'm sure I'll be taking Ken for a tour in December. Our NOC's are spread out in other cities around the country so I don't have any pull ... not that they are anything special. It's the MSC's where the magic happens

kensteele

You would just love it if the Verizon data network was superior to the Sprint data network. But it's not. Better go back and check out your sources, you might get some surprises about Sprint. Anyway, I might have given away some things.....by telling you something you didn't know. I love how you try to prove something by making an assumption and then backing the assumption up with a laundry list of facts. I love how you try to prove that Verizon is better than Sprint by quoting a laundry list of technical facts. 9 vs. 8; M3 vs M2, 5 loops vs 4 loops, $9 billion vs. $8 billion, CCCx3 vs CCCx2, EVDV vs EVDO.

Since when do I have to be a professor of 3G fundamental mechanics in order to understand the basics? So we don't know what were talking about and you do, eh?

Well Adam is not confused, he read it right here. Siggy drove the entire way...and he stated his experience. So maybe we're doing something you and your Verizon buddies just simply don't know about. See? I told you we got it going on over here at Sprint. Hehe.

So maybe you are right and maybe the entire Sprint network is just one big MSC or whatever you call it and no handoff is necessary. You need multiple MSCs cause you're patchwork network you purchased from all those deadbeat carriers needed to be sewn together.

Ok, j/k on that last one but I bet you Sprint is using Mobile IP and you entire theory is therefore shot to hell. Wanna bet that lunch on that?

SiGGy

I was just speaking from my experience with it from that trip.

LOL, I don't think anything we did/said made soopa look like that.