Doom878

Run what you brung. Like fists.

scholtew

That Hendo knockout was unreal, and I loved the superman punch at the end that will shut Bisbings mouth for a while.

Dr. Colorado

Bruce Lee would end up so severely beaten it would be laughable. Pay attention to the evolution of MMA and you will quickly agree that the current crop of fighters are amongst the most superior athletes of any discipline. Royce wouldn't stand a chance fighting without a gi against Rush or Spider. The sport, and believe me MMA is a sport and not some freak sideshow, is evolving by leaps and bounds as we speak.

Speaking from my experience training in martial arts, being well rounded with excellent striking, takedown skills, and ground game is truly a feat to accomplish. Last night I boxed, tonight I have muay thai, thursday is full contact sparring. That's a pretty busy week for someone who doesn't even roll (do jiu-jitsu). Athletes like GSP and Spider excel in multiple aspects and can bring it on their feet or on the ground. Somehow I don't see Bruce getting out of a rear naked choke with his lightning fast fists.

Doom878

Rick,

Why don't you just go to an MMA school? You won't be a master at one art but you'll have experience in most of the arts you mentioned including wrestling.

Yumcha

Again...comment from a casual fan. I always maintained that a MMA fighter becomes a jack-of-all-trades...master-of-none sort of athlete. And from the fights I've watched (and again, just a few)...all of them at some point becomes a lunge-tackle and hug-each-other-and-punch-on-the-ground game. Every single one.

So, back to my original post that you responded to here, a martial artist like Lee would just have to stay vertical and be quick enough to avoid a person running at him to take him down and should be fine, no?

STL+3.0CL

That knockout was huge! The initial right put him out, then his head SLAMMED into the mat followed by a full weight superman forearm slam to his face. I would of loved to of seen Bisbings face as he watched the replay of the knock out. Cuz you know he had no idea what happened at all.

Oh, and the GSP - Alves fight was my favorite from 100. Tremendous respect for both fighters after that one. GSP was about to go into cardiac arrest, and alves face was about to swell shut.

JBlueCLS6

iTrader: (2)

There is a possibility to keep it standing however 90% of fights eventually hit the ground... Bruce Lee stated himself something along the lines that someone who trains wrestling and boxing for 1 year each could probably take him.

Back then Bruce Lee probably never thought martial arts would evolve to the point where he would need to learn take down defense etc...

Yumcha

^ Not sure about Bruce's exposure to the entire stream of Oriental martial arts...but, judo's main credo was the concept of taking down the opponent, no?

JBlueCLS6

iTrader: (2)

Judo involved throws and sweeps however you were in no immediate danger on the ground as it did not focus on grappling and submissions... Also Judo did not have the quick shoots as say a Greco Roman wrestler... A Judo practitioner generally always presses up against the other grabbing the gi or the belt, I'm certain Bruce would always like to keep a good distance and would be very aware of what was occurring and thwart of a Judo practitioner so that he can employ his strikes.

TzarChasm

Again, they are a master of martial arts, it's just not a single named martial art. It's the martial art of MMA. One dimentional fighters get their asses handed to them in MMA. Bruce Lee was good at Wing Chun, but was he the very best at each of it's forms? I highly doubt it.

Doom878

From my understanding Bruce used to teach jiu jitsu. Not sure if it was close to the Brazilian style that we're all familiar with but I don't think he was clueless on the ground. It would be very difficult for him not to end up on the ground given UFC's rules.

As for takedowns, it seems that wrestling moves seem to be the preferred techniques although you will see some hip tosses once in a blue (likely from Karo). The hugging while standing is clinching which actually is a big muay thai component. If those guys didn't know how to defend that, you'd see more fights of a guy getting kneed to the nose and face while the winner was holding down his head. When you get an idea and actually learn why some of the fights seem redundant, it opens up your eyes to the tons of strategy used in a fight.

scholtew

I have been a UFC faithful for many years now, way back before the TV show, and before it became popular, and I have to say Bisbing is one of my most hated fighters of all time. He gets all this hype, but he has never really done anything, all of his "big" wins have come via judges decision, and that's not much of a win IMO. Henderson is a world class fighter and said at one point before the fight that Bisbing is not in the same league as he is, and this fight proves it. I really hope Bisbing will think before he talks in the future, because I'm sure he is pretty embarrassed after what happened to him at 100 given all the shit he talked leading up to the fight.

On another note though, we have more than a few title holders in the UFC right now that look unbeatable, and I am really not sure what Dana White is going to do about it. No one can beat GSP right now and no one can even touch Anderson Silva, the guy is an animal. Even when the Ice man was champ and knocking out everyone he cam into contact with, there was still a line of dude who thought they could take him. I don't think there is currently a line to fight GSP,Silva or Brock right now. So what do you do, go to other companies and look for fighters that could maybe last more than a round with any of these three guys. UFC fans, any thoughts??

Dr. Colorado

My dojo is MMA and the majority of students compete in amateur or professional events. Some do exclusively standup, some do exclusively ground, a lot compete in MMA. While I can perform a half dozen or so submissions (forearm bar, single and double arm bar, rear naked, etc) and have experience in neck clinching, I have always been concerned about injury. BJJ is so sporadic and random at times that I felt "less in control" at preventing injury.

If I can't operate or inject botox I would be up seriously f-cked LOL. That's why I have focused on standup but your point well taken and I will be the first to admit that my fight game is incomplete.

Furthermore, having sustained concussions from getting kneed in the chin I am well aware of the risks involved in muay thai as well. Just seems like there's a lot more random injuries among my teammates who compete in BJJ.

Again, I am cutting you slack because you are a casual fan no offense. If you had personal experience neck clinching, throwing and dodging elbows and knees, working on overhand and underhand hooks, and doing single and double legged takedowns you would appreciate the skill involved as many in this post do.

Spoken like a true cognescenti. We spend hours in advanced muay thai working on neck clinching, elbows, knees, because in competition the fight often evolves towards this end.

Yumcha

So, essentially, the most efficient form of fighting is muay-thai combined with wrestling/submission techniques...? Since, from the responses, knowledge of karate, kungfu, and related don't seem to factor into a successful fighter...?

Dr. Colorado

Muay thai offers the flexibility of front kicks, roundhouse kicks, sweeps and a variety of punches with the punishment of elbows and knees.

Our sensei specifically instructs us to throw "hook" elbows when we're in close to open a cut above the opponent's eyes which if executed properly will result in a TKO.

The majority of "streetfights" are not in some parking lot where you can move all over the place with lots of room but often in a bar, bathroom, or some other closed space where you'll be in tight with the opponent. It is in this setting that elbows and knees are invaluable.

The octagon also forces a closed tight setting where muay thai may be more effective than say tae kwon do or jeet kun do which requires some distance between opponents IMO.

Of course, GSP is a blackbelt in I believe shotokan but has implemented some serious muay thai skills into his repertoire. Believe it or not GSP was invited to compete for the Canadian olympic wrestling team. That's pretty nuts and is indicative of his athleticism. A lot of MMA fighters were former NCAA and even Olympic wrestling competitors or national champions, i.e. Lesnar and Couture.

Yumcha

^ and

Ah, got it...!

So, one more question then: if the Octagon was enlarged, would a non-grappling-trained fighter have a chance against a muay-thai/wrestler type...?

TzarChasm

It ALL factors in. Being really good at any one thing is bad, being pretty good at several things is good. Unluss you are Brock Lesnar, who'se fighting style is goon, you can't be one dimentional or you are going to lose. Period.

Dr. Colorado

Doubtful since the majority of fights go to the ground.

That's what makes MMA so compelling.

TzarChasm

They have a chance now, anyone who can swing an arm has a punchers chance at winning a fight.

The problem is enlarging the ring dosn't really matter because you still have to be within an arms range to hit someone.

So my answer is no, a one dimensional fighter is still going to lose most of the time in a close combat fight. The fiction of Bruce Lee (and other organized martial arts) is you could just kick someone and send them flying away from you, if they came back you could do it again. The reality is a kick may not stop the guy, and if you are a one trick pony, you are in a lot of trouble when you have used up your trick.

TzarChasm

That and the rock sizzors paper of it all. People who have great standup can beat a guy who is merely good at standup and ground but get creamed by someone with really good ground, but a really good ground guy has trouble against someone with good hands and good takedown defence. all hypothetical of course, but it seems to be that there are constantly guys that can beat certain types of fighters, but lose to other types of fighters.

bent09

iTrader: (1)

GSP and Silva have some sort of weakness (very little) but Brock looks like he will Marc Colman for a while (bring in bob sapp ).

Everyone is 1 punch away. I really think Alves can beat GSP he looked extremely timmed.

What I don't want to see is they start these compromised weight class fights. It is only a matter of time till Silva, GSP, and Brock meet someone who rings their bell. I don't want to compare it to the old WWF but remember how popular Goldberg was with the win streak?

Doom878

I believe GSP trains with the Canadian wrestling team weeks up to a fight. And about the injuries. Rolling with my 300lb bro-in-law (I was like 210) got me hurt and he wasn't going all out. Those BJJ classes (I've done some in my old gym) get furious. Everyone's cool but it is dangerous. And what the hell did you call me, Rick?

Yum,

I learned a lot by watching UFC reruns. UFC Unleashed on Spike provides a lot of good fights. Just Tivo them and you'll be an aficionado in no time.

bent09

iTrader: (1)

scholtew

I absolutely agree, the fact that everyone is one punch away from loosing their title makes UFC very exciting to watch. Brings me back to that Krocop fight, where everyone was so damn excited to see this dude and he got head kicked(page out of his own book) in the first round for one of the most insane knockouts I have ever seen. You can you tube it and watch his leg bucked under him when he falls.

I just kind of miss the classic rivalries that there were years ago with the great champs IE Huges vs. Trigg and Lidell v. Coutoure. Now its allmost as if we have these dominant champions and a slew of fighters just below them in skill level waiting to get knocked out.

chinoz

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/bal...urn=nba,176709

how long does Shaq last against Lesnar?

Doom878

I knew Shaq trained but dayam 10 years. He trained hard the whole time? He was kind of fat for a while although in better shape this past year. Those long limbs are very prone to submissions. Obviously Brock would kick his ass since Shaq isn't of age anymore. This of course won't happen until at least next year when his NBA contract expires and he doesn't re-sign.

TzarChasm

Yes obviously a 37 year old could NEVER win in the UFC.

Daniel Jeffery Henderson (born August 24, 1970)

Shadzilla

^^^ 37 is nothing, hell Couture won the heavyweight title at 43.

bent09

iTrader: (1)

Brock would wipe the floor with him... not that I am a fan but I think Brock would rush him right out of the gate

madcaps

iTrader: (1)

My thoughts on UFC 100.

I thought the first fight should of went to Alan Belcher and not Yoshihiro Akiyama, Belcher won 2 of the 3 rounds, plus for a judge to give a 30-27 score to Akiyama was absurd.

Dan Henderson knocking out Bisping was awesome and I don't care what anyone says about that second hit being unnecessary because it was anything but. Bisping shut the f**k up and go back to the UK you limey bastard!

GSP was being GSP by getting in there and dominating a young great fighter, its refreshing to see a fighter stick to his game plan and listen to his trainers during a fight. Of course it would have been nice to see it end sooner by k.o. or submission but he won and that is all that matters. Also, you gotta love GSP's trainer, he talks to him like he's a little kid, whatever it takes to calm him down I guess.

I hate Lesnar, period. No class, no style, and pure douche. I was really disappointed in Mir, being the Jiu-Jitsu artist that he is, it seems like he could have done more to get out from under the big meathead or would've not put himself in that position in the first place, but you live and learn I guess.

So all that blood came from Danzig? Damn my friend has trained with him numerous times, I wish I would have seen that fight, I love the blood.

All in all UFC 100 was kind of mediocre and anticlimatic but the highlight to me was Bisping getting knocked the f**k out like I'm sure it was for a lot of people.

Doom878

You forgot one small minor important detail. Dan all his life has been wrestling and fighting and training. Shaq has to practice basketball, play basketball, recover from bball injuries (he had a lot), do his movies, do his 10 million other businesses, rap about kobe, etc etc. Dan is an exception to the rule of age as is Couture and very few other fighters. Shaq's age hinders his already lack of experience.My point was that if Shaq was younger, at least his athleticism would somewhat help what he lacks in experience.

TzarChasm

I was just making a point on the age comment, you were wrong, its ok to say so.

I didn't forget anything. You may have an OPINION on Shaq's being able to fight, but well, you know what they say about those. You have no idea at all how hard shaq has been training, and the fact that he can still play a serious sport while Lesnar cannot, says a little bit about his athleticism right there.

JBlueCLS6

iTrader: (2)

Alan Belcher did NOT win that fight against Akiyama... I scored it 29-28 as did Fight Metric

http://fightmetric.com/fights/Akiyama-Belcher.html

Doom878

Re-read my post. Where did I say that being 37 means you can't win in the UFC as you posted. What was I wrong about? I think you didn't fully read what I posted. Of course I know who Dan Henderson and Randy Couture are. I'm only talking about Shaq.

What was I wrong about? Just an opinion as you cleverly stated. I said Shaq isn't of age anymore meaning he's not in his age primewise which means more likely to lose. Obviously you took the age thing personally, gramps. :wink:

Sure he's athletic playing NBA. Again you missed my point that the athleticism he had 10 years ago was greater than the athletecism he has today. Wasn't he better 10 years ago though? Look up his stats. If you think he trains hard enough in his spare time to beat Lesnar by all means bet away. I didn't say he wouldn't compete with Lesnar, I opined that he would definitely lose to the UFC heavyweight champ. Nor did I say anywhere nor even think that a 37 year old can't compete in the UFC.

chinoz

Isn't Shaq the one that usually shows up to camp fat and out of shape? I doubt he trains as hard as most of these MMA fighters.

Shaq also can't throw a punch.. we've seen that first hand in the NBA. Just look at that swing and miss on Brad Miller.

bent09

iTrader: (1)

I concur....although he should have gotten bonus points for street fighter VEGA move by bouncing off the cage super man punch...

That was awesome.

Doom878

Brad Miller>Brock Lesnar

TzarChasm

When you say things like he OBVIOUSLY cant win because of AGE, the implied thought behind it is you think he is either too old or too young. Don't blame me for not understanding your craptastic writing skills.

And once again, I don't see why Shaq couldn't compete. The fact that he still plays in the NBA means he is in pretty good shape, and if you think because he missed one punch at a moving target means he cant punch then you obviously don't watch a lot of MMA.

Unlike you, (because you obviously would know)I have no idea how good Shaq could be, but the fact that you have written him off because of spurious logic seems an aweful lot like the people who wrote off Lesnar because "he's just a wrestler".

RMATIC09

Rick, Yum, your comparing apples and oranges.

Bruce Lee was NOT an MMA fighter.

There are THOUSANDS of pages of notes on Bruce Lee's philosophies and ideas and STANCE/FOOTWORK. He was a street fighter. In his later development he broke away from traditional martial arts and developed Jeet Kune Do.

You can argue till your face turns blue that JKD is a "philosophy" and not an art, however, as mentioned before there are dozens of books of Bruce, outlining, sketching, and describing the stance and footwork of JKD (based on Western Boxing, fencing...i.e, strong side forward, half beat footwork, etc).

Comparing Bruce to fighters in the Octagon is folly. Bruce did not believe in rules , as there are no rules in the street. He was a small man, of course, with lightning fast reflexes and extreme power (due to his ability to properly shift his body weight).

Throw Bruce in the UFC and make claims? Bruce would never get into an octagon and play by "limitations" and if he did happen to be there - you can bet your ass he would stick his finger in someones eye, rip it out, and eat it, rip off some nuts, and call it a day. I don't care how big some of these guys are - Bruce's footwork was and will remain for a very long time - at an unprecedented level.

What makes fighters great? Their timing, distance and rhythm - all of which comes from good footwork.

And while I am not denying the credibility of some of the amazing MMA fighters out there - for what it's worth - his comment about "jack of all trade-s master of none " is DEAD ON.

The majority of your average MMA athletes - are just not very skilled - the percentage of amazing MMA athletes compared to the whole sport is very small.

A master is one who knows more and more about less and less. Practicing a different martial art every night will make you well rounded - yes - but will make it very difficult to become a master at any one of those arts specifically.

It's just body mechanics and muscle memory. Half the arts contradict each other in a traditional MMA school - you teach a man 1 punch and tell him to throw it 10,000 times and you teach another man 10 punches, and he throws each of them 1,000 times each - you bet your ass the guy who only knows 1 punch will throw it quicker, with more accuracy, and more power. It's all he knows.


You put anyone in a rear naked choke and let it sink in and they will have trouble getting out of it . In the street however, things are different. Good luck and have fun rolling all over concrete, curbs, glass, the threat of friends coming to stomp you out while your going for those submissions.

And the martial arts that often get overlooked in MMA - like silat/kali - guys who are so crazy that they will let you take them to the ground just to pull out a knife 2 inches long and shank you 20 times before you realize you just got gutted. People don't fuck around in the street, and how you train, is how you fight.

You teach an MMA guy to clinch, grab, tie up, etc - that's what he's going to do - he may be able to check kicks and throw some great punches and kicks with amazing power , but have fun checking a bat or maybe a pipe. And when you clinch and the knife or switch blade runs across your face, then what?

woot - sorry for the rant - note* this is not directed at anyone person, just a general vent on how I feel about MMA vs applicable street fighting and the very popular Bruce Lee vs MMA fighter argument.

Dr. Colorado

Well if you're bringing weapons into the equation than having a firearm trumps anything you mentioned. If you're talking about bringing a knife or bat into the equation then the pepper spray in my pocket or the 9 mm Sig on my waist will put you down faster than you can blink. The fact of the matter is that most streetfights go to the ground. Bruce was great but I'd take GSP over him if they were brawling in a bathroom stall. JKT is a standup art and is good for situations where you have a lot of open space.

Your point about multiple opponents is well taken. Against multiple opponents BJJ wouldn't be the best approach.

During class, our sensei teaches us to counter opponents with knives or even kendo style swords so your statement about not handling weapons is misguided and ignorant.

My BJJ sensei awoke during the night when he heard an intruder enter. He rendered the burglar unconscious with a rear naked and kept him subdued until the police came so again your statement about real world application from MMA is incorrect.