MLB:Joe Torre might get fired.
#1
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MLB:Joe Torre might get fired.
Boss of old: George Steinbrenner says Yankees must win or Joe Torre likely won't return
Boss of old: George Steinbrenner says Yankees must win or Joe Torre likely won't return
By RONALD BLUM, AP Baseball Writer
October 7, 2007
NEW YORK (AP) -- Win or else! That was George Steinbrenner's message to Joe Torre before the New York Yankees played the Cleveland Indians on Sunday night.
With the Yankees trailing 2-0 in the best-of-five, first-round playoff series, Steinbrenner reverted to the blustering boss of old and said Torre likely wouldn't return as manager unless New York reaches the AL championship series for the first time in three years.
"His job is on the line," the owner was quoted in Sunday's editions of The Record of New Jersey. "I think we're paying him a lot of money. He's the highest-paid manager in baseball, so I don't think we'd take him back if we don't win this series."
Torre was hired before the 1996 season and led the Yankees to four World Series titles in his first five years but none since. New York last reached the World Series in 2003, wasted a 3-0 lead against Boston in the 2004 ALCS, then was eliminated by the Angels and Detroit in the first round the last two years.
"You're not surprised by whatever comes down the pike," Torre said. "You don't always get used to it, but you understand if you want to work here -- and there's a great deal of upside to working here -- that there are certain things you have to deal with. We've had ultimatums during the season, early in the season. This obviously is down to a game we need to win, and you'd like to believe everybody's trying to pull in the same direction."
Torre has led the Yankees to 12 consecutive postseason appearances, winning 10 AL East titles and two wild-card berths. His 1,173 regular-season wins are second among Yankees managers behind Joe McCarthy's 1,460.
"If we don't perform, it shouldn't be a reflection of his abilities. The reflection should be on us, not on him," pitcher Mike Mussina said. "I don't think you can ask any more from somebody who's dealt with every circumstance that has come up, from injuries to people not playing up to their abilities or scrutiny or everything, and he's stood tall and got us in the postseason every year."
In the final season of his current contract, Torre is being paid $7 million. He hasn't decided whether he would want to return but has seemed open to it in recent weeks.
"It's too early for me to address that because, you know, the most important thing for me right now is winning Game 3," he said.
Torre matter-of-factly answered questions for 12 minutes about 2 1/2 hours before game time. He found out about Steinbrenner's comments when he arrived at Yankee Stadium.
"I choose not to read the papers and stuff when we don't do well," Torre said. "I jump in there when we're doing well."
Steinbrenner didn't comment as he walked into Yankee Stadium. He changed managers 20 times from 1973-95 and nearly fired Torre after last year's four-game elimination. Torre had a humorous response when asked whether his job would be safe in the Yankees did come back.
"Till the next series, right?" he said.
"You have seen managers who have been here before me. I don't think any of them have been on easy street as far as the day-in, day-out operations here," he said. "So whether I think it's right, wrong, fair, foul or whatever is really not the point at this point in time. I'll save all that stuff for later on when there's really nothing left for me to do here."
New York plays have long been accustomed to Steinbrenner's pointed remarks.
"Obviously he speaks his mind at any time," general manager Brian Cashman said.
Steinbrenner also criticized umpire Bruce Froemming for not stopping play when insects invaded the field during Game 2 in Cleveland on Friday. Rookie reliever Joba Chamberlain threw two wild pitches that allowed Cleveland to tie the game in the eighth, and the Indians went on to win 2-1 in 11 innings.
Froemming called it "just a little irritation." Steinbrenner profanely dismissed Froemming's explanation.
"He won't umpire our games anymore," Steinbrenner said.
The 68-year-old Froemming -- the longest-tenured umpire in major league history -- is retiring after this season. The Yankees complained to baseball commissioner Bud Selig.
"(Selig) just said, 'That's in the umpires' hands.' ... It was terrible. It messed up the whole team, (Derek) Jeter, all of them," Steinbrenner told the paper.
A little more than an hour before Game 3, Froemming stood by his decision.
"George is entitled to his comments," the umpire said. "Nobody complained about it. Neither manager, nor the players. They put the spray on 'em, 30-40 minutes they were gone. So, it was a non-issue. We have worse situations with rain and cold in the spring."
Steinbrenner also predicted Alex Rodriguez will remain with the Yankees. A-Rod has the right to opt out of the final three years of his record $252 million, 10-year contract after the World Series and become a free agent.
"I think we'll re-sign him," Steinbrenner told the paper. "I think he's going to have a good run the rest of the (postseason). I think he realizes New York is the place to be, the place to play. A lot of this (postseason) is laying on his shoulders, you know, but I think he's up to it."
The 77-year-old Steinbrenner, who has appeared to be more frail in recent years, said he will make the decisions on Torre and Rodriguez.
"I have full control," Steinbrenner said.
AP Baseball Writer Mike Fitzpatrick and AP Sports Writer Jay Cohen contributed to this report.
Boss of old: George Steinbrenner says Yankees must win or Joe Torre likely won't return
By RONALD BLUM, AP Baseball Writer
October 7, 2007
NEW YORK (AP) -- Win or else! That was George Steinbrenner's message to Joe Torre before the New York Yankees played the Cleveland Indians on Sunday night.
With the Yankees trailing 2-0 in the best-of-five, first-round playoff series, Steinbrenner reverted to the blustering boss of old and said Torre likely wouldn't return as manager unless New York reaches the AL championship series for the first time in three years.
"His job is on the line," the owner was quoted in Sunday's editions of The Record of New Jersey. "I think we're paying him a lot of money. He's the highest-paid manager in baseball, so I don't think we'd take him back if we don't win this series."
Torre was hired before the 1996 season and led the Yankees to four World Series titles in his first five years but none since. New York last reached the World Series in 2003, wasted a 3-0 lead against Boston in the 2004 ALCS, then was eliminated by the Angels and Detroit in the first round the last two years.
"You're not surprised by whatever comes down the pike," Torre said. "You don't always get used to it, but you understand if you want to work here -- and there's a great deal of upside to working here -- that there are certain things you have to deal with. We've had ultimatums during the season, early in the season. This obviously is down to a game we need to win, and you'd like to believe everybody's trying to pull in the same direction."
Torre has led the Yankees to 12 consecutive postseason appearances, winning 10 AL East titles and two wild-card berths. His 1,173 regular-season wins are second among Yankees managers behind Joe McCarthy's 1,460.
"If we don't perform, it shouldn't be a reflection of his abilities. The reflection should be on us, not on him," pitcher Mike Mussina said. "I don't think you can ask any more from somebody who's dealt with every circumstance that has come up, from injuries to people not playing up to their abilities or scrutiny or everything, and he's stood tall and got us in the postseason every year."
In the final season of his current contract, Torre is being paid $7 million. He hasn't decided whether he would want to return but has seemed open to it in recent weeks.
"It's too early for me to address that because, you know, the most important thing for me right now is winning Game 3," he said.
Torre matter-of-factly answered questions for 12 minutes about 2 1/2 hours before game time. He found out about Steinbrenner's comments when he arrived at Yankee Stadium.
"I choose not to read the papers and stuff when we don't do well," Torre said. "I jump in there when we're doing well."
Steinbrenner didn't comment as he walked into Yankee Stadium. He changed managers 20 times from 1973-95 and nearly fired Torre after last year's four-game elimination. Torre had a humorous response when asked whether his job would be safe in the Yankees did come back.
"Till the next series, right?" he said.
"You have seen managers who have been here before me. I don't think any of them have been on easy street as far as the day-in, day-out operations here," he said. "So whether I think it's right, wrong, fair, foul or whatever is really not the point at this point in time. I'll save all that stuff for later on when there's really nothing left for me to do here."
New York plays have long been accustomed to Steinbrenner's pointed remarks.
"Obviously he speaks his mind at any time," general manager Brian Cashman said.
Steinbrenner also criticized umpire Bruce Froemming for not stopping play when insects invaded the field during Game 2 in Cleveland on Friday. Rookie reliever Joba Chamberlain threw two wild pitches that allowed Cleveland to tie the game in the eighth, and the Indians went on to win 2-1 in 11 innings.
Froemming called it "just a little irritation." Steinbrenner profanely dismissed Froemming's explanation.
"He won't umpire our games anymore," Steinbrenner said.
The 68-year-old Froemming -- the longest-tenured umpire in major league history -- is retiring after this season. The Yankees complained to baseball commissioner Bud Selig.
"(Selig) just said, 'That's in the umpires' hands.' ... It was terrible. It messed up the whole team, (Derek) Jeter, all of them," Steinbrenner told the paper.
A little more than an hour before Game 3, Froemming stood by his decision.
"George is entitled to his comments," the umpire said. "Nobody complained about it. Neither manager, nor the players. They put the spray on 'em, 30-40 minutes they were gone. So, it was a non-issue. We have worse situations with rain and cold in the spring."
Steinbrenner also predicted Alex Rodriguez will remain with the Yankees. A-Rod has the right to opt out of the final three years of his record $252 million, 10-year contract after the World Series and become a free agent.
"I think we'll re-sign him," Steinbrenner told the paper. "I think he's going to have a good run the rest of the (postseason). I think he realizes New York is the place to be, the place to play. A lot of this (postseason) is laying on his shoulders, you know, but I think he's up to it."
The 77-year-old Steinbrenner, who has appeared to be more frail in recent years, said he will make the decisions on Torre and Rodriguez.
"I have full control," Steinbrenner said.
AP Baseball Writer Mike Fitzpatrick and AP Sports Writer Jay Cohen contributed to this report.
Last edited by S14 n Tsx; 10-07-2007 at 06:34 PM.
#2
mmmmmm....
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edit: It's really sad to see that he might be done for good. He has been loyal to yankees and he done everything he could to help the team to reach it to another WS. "Torre has led the Yankees to 12 consecutive postseason appearances, winning 10 AL East titles and two wild-card berths. His 1,173 regular-season wins are second among Yankees managers behind Joe McCarthy's 1,460. " What can you expect more from him? those are some crazy numbers, 12 consecutive postseason?? and he is about to get fired? give me a break...
#3
mmmmmm....
Thread Starter
I have nothing against Roger Clemens, but he is no near what he is used to be. I don't understand why they put him on the roster? I think people give him way too much credit to this guy. Yes, he is the one of the greatest player in all time, but he ain't young anymore.
3-0 now...
![Why Me](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/whyme.gif)
![Yuck](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/yuck.gif)
#4
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
Yeah I don't understand how they can't be loyal to him, Bobby Cox had similar numbers, 10 consecutive division titles and even after not making the playoffs, the Braves still have confidence in him.
But to be honest I never was really that big of a Torre fan. Don't flame me, I just thought his numbers aren't a reflection of his managing skills, I think its the players that made him look like a good manager. Don't forget the Yankees have always been a veteran group of players with plenty of team leaders, and with Mariano Rivera as your closer he barely has to manage.
But to be honest I never was really that big of a Torre fan. Don't flame me, I just thought his numbers aren't a reflection of his managing skills, I think its the players that made him look like a good manager. Don't forget the Yankees have always been a veteran group of players with plenty of team leaders, and with Mariano Rivera as your closer he barely has to manage.
#5
mmmmmm....
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Eoanou
Yeah I don't understand how they can't be loyal to him, Bobby Cox had similar numbers, 10 consecutive division titles and even after not making the playoffs, the Braves still have confidence in him.
But to be honest I never was really that big of a Torre fan. Don't flame me, I just thought his numbers aren't a reflection of his managing skills, I think its the players that made him look like a good manager. Don't forget the Yankees have always been a veteran group of players with plenty of team leaders, and with Mariano Rivera as your closer he barely has to manage.
But to be honest I never was really that big of a Torre fan. Don't flame me, I just thought his numbers aren't a reflection of his managing skills, I think its the players that made him look like a good manager. Don't forget the Yankees have always been a veteran group of players with plenty of team leaders, and with Mariano Rivera as your closer he barely has to manage.
The perfect example to this similiar situation would LA lakers. I don't know if you pay attention to NBA or not, but when LA had kobe and shaq, they weren't playing so well. They had all the talent they needed but still couldn't win it, but who fixed this problem? phil jackson.
I still think that yankees should keep joe around and make 1-2 year contract to see how things turn out. There is no reason to dump him at this point.
btw, they are winning now. yes!!! 8-3.
#6
Baseball playoffs are a crapshoot..especially the 5 game series.
No sane individual would judge the merit of a manager (or player) based on that small of a sample size. Torre's teams have dominated in nearly 2000 regular season games, always outpacing the league and usually winning the division.
The Yankees can win or lose game 3 or win or lose the series and it really is no reflection of his quality.
No sane individual would judge the merit of a manager (or player) based on that small of a sample size. Torre's teams have dominated in nearly 2000 regular season games, always outpacing the league and usually winning the division.
The Yankees can win or lose game 3 or win or lose the series and it really is no reflection of his quality.
#7
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It's not Torre's fault that the Yankees' bat went dead for games 1 and 2. The No. 1 offense went completely dead. They were what, 1 for 20 with RISP? Torre isn't the one swinging at those nasty sinkers from C.C. and Carmona.
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#9
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Originally Posted by S14 n Tsx
They won the game 3 so let's see how this goes. I hope they win. ![Wish](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wish.gif)
![Wish](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wish.gif)
#11
I dunno about gong with Wang in Game 4.
History has shown that in this era of the 5 man rotation (the last 25 years), pitchers going on 3 days rest in the postseason struggle mightily. Like 6.50 ERA or something. It is always better to just go with your #4 and just pitch your #1 for Game 5.
Gotta win two games anyway...might as well have your ace on full rest for Game 5.
History has shown that in this era of the 5 man rotation (the last 25 years), pitchers going on 3 days rest in the postseason struggle mightily. Like 6.50 ERA or something. It is always better to just go with your #4 and just pitch your #1 for Game 5.
Gotta win two games anyway...might as well have your ace on full rest for Game 5.
#12
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Originally Posted by NetEditor
They have a real shot at forcing game 5. Wang will start on short rest, and he pitches much, much better at home than on the road. He'll be on a short leash. If he falters, Mussina will back him up -- not a bad position to be in since Moose pitched much better in late September after skipping some starts in late August/early September.
Last edited by S14 n Tsx; 10-08-2007 at 01:29 AM.
#13
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Originally Posted by Pull_T
I dunno about gong with Wang in Game 4.
History has shown that in this era of the 5 man rotation (the last 25 years), pitchers going on 3 days rest in the postseason struggle mightily. Like 6.50 ERA or something. It is always better to just go with your #4 and just pitch your #1 for Game 5.
Gotta win two games anyway...might as well have your ace on full rest for Game 5.
History has shown that in this era of the 5 man rotation (the last 25 years), pitchers going on 3 days rest in the postseason struggle mightily. Like 6.50 ERA or something. It is always better to just go with your #4 and just pitch your #1 for Game 5.
Gotta win two games anyway...might as well have your ace on full rest for Game 5.
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George is oftentimes (if not always) as obnoxious, brain-dead, and self-entitled as the casual, spoiled Yankees fan. When he makes comments like the ones above, it really shows how little understanding he really has for the game. The manager's role is to give his ballclub the best chance to win games and position itself for a successful postseason run ... and during the past 13 years, Torre has more than proven he is capable of doing this.
Steinbrenner is senile ... when his ego gets in the way and he dabbles too much in the team, it's always counterproductive.
Steinbrenner is senile ... when his ego gets in the way and he dabbles too much in the team, it's always counterproductive.
#16
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Originally Posted by PillsburyChoboy
George is oftentimes (if not always) as obnoxious, brain-dead, and self-entitled as the casual, spoiled Yankees fan. When he makes comments like the ones above, it really shows how little understanding he really has for the game. The manager's role is to give his ballclub the best chance to win games and position itself for a successful postseason run ... and during the past 13 years, Torre has more than proven he is capable of doing this.
Steinbrenner is senile ... when his ego gets in the way and he dabbles too much in the team, it's always counterproductive.
Steinbrenner is senile ... when his ego gets in the way and he dabbles too much in the team, it's always counterproductive.
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Originally Posted by S14 n Tsx
well, game 5 would be at cleveland so Wong would not be playing at home.
Originally Posted by S14 n Tsx
eh? M. Mussina is pitching Game 4, not Wang.
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Originally Posted by Pull_T
I dunno about gong with Wang in Game 4.
History has shown that in this era of the 5 man rotation (the last 25 years), pitchers going on 3 days rest in the postseason struggle mightily. Like 6.50 ERA or something. It is always better to just go with your #4 and just pitch your #1 for Game 5.
Gotta win two games anyway...might as well have your ace on full rest for Game 5.
History has shown that in this era of the 5 man rotation (the last 25 years), pitchers going on 3 days rest in the postseason struggle mightily. Like 6.50 ERA or something. It is always better to just go with your #4 and just pitch your #1 for Game 5.
Gotta win two games anyway...might as well have your ace on full rest for Game 5.
Pettitte, who I think is the true ace especially in the post-season, would start Game 5.
#20
Bent = #1
Originally Posted by Eoanou
Yeah I don't understand how they can't be loyal to him, Bobby Cox had similar numbers, 10 consecutive division titles and even after not making the playoffs, the Braves still have confidence in him.
But to be honest I never was really that big of a Torre fan. Don't flame me, I just thought his numbers aren't a reflection of his managing skills, I think its the players that made him look like a good manager. Don't forget the Yankees have always been a veteran group of players with plenty of team leaders, and with Mariano Rivera as your closer he barely has to manage.
But to be honest I never was really that big of a Torre fan. Don't flame me, I just thought his numbers aren't a reflection of his managing skills, I think its the players that made him look like a good manager. Don't forget the Yankees have always been a veteran group of players with plenty of team leaders, and with Mariano Rivera as your closer he barely has to manage.
The Braves don't spend nearly as much as the Yankees do though..
#21
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Originally Posted by NetEditor
![what](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/what.gif)
edit: you are right, wang is pitching tonight.
#22
Originally Posted by NetEditor
I don't think I'd want to put my season on Mussina right now. Wang will be on a very short leash. Torre will pull Wang if he even looks bad but is performing OK. I think the strategy will be for Wang to throw four innings, then hand it over to Mussina.
Pettitte, who I think is the true ace especially in the post-season, would start Game 5.
Pettitte, who I think is the true ace especially in the post-season, would start Game 5.
Ideally, you never have to put your season on the line with your #4 starter, but unless you get a couple of sweeps in the first two rounds, you have to. If the ultimate goal is to win the World Series, you can't rely on short rest to get you by for a month with just your top 3.
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I don't buy Mattingly as being a good manager ... what has he done in the past decade to suggest otherwise? He's just been Torre's lap-dog ... a glorified bench coach for the most expensive team in MLB (recall that Don Zimmer was a considered a "great" bench coach for essentially snoozing next to Torre all season long).
Giraldi has the pedigree (many successful managers were catchers), the actual experience (successfully "managed" an overachieving Marlins team), and the respect from the NYY players, organization, and even NYC media. But he seems to be strong-headed in his approach and would probably clash with Steinny, who wants a obedient puppet like Mattingly.
Mattingly seems to just sit there, clap his hands occassionally, and look pensive. Sure he's a Yankee hero. Sure he's a "big name." But he has zero managing experience and has gained a lot of misplaced credit for being a "great" special instructor/hitting coach in the past ... for a monied franchise that happens to have a boat-load of All-Stars and MVP candidates who were great hitters BEFORE Mattingly.
Steinbrenner's edging toward the 80's-90's territory here. Too much hubris and excess and sense of entitlement which made the Yankees mock-worthy for nearly a decade. Obviously, the Yanks can never be a "bad" team since their payroll will keep them afloat and mistakes can be easily corrected/removed. But the more he dabbles, the worse off the Yanks are. He should just leave things alone and go back to eating his pudding in Tampa Bay.
Giraldi has the pedigree (many successful managers were catchers), the actual experience (successfully "managed" an overachieving Marlins team), and the respect from the NYY players, organization, and even NYC media. But he seems to be strong-headed in his approach and would probably clash with Steinny, who wants a obedient puppet like Mattingly.
Mattingly seems to just sit there, clap his hands occassionally, and look pensive. Sure he's a Yankee hero. Sure he's a "big name." But he has zero managing experience and has gained a lot of misplaced credit for being a "great" special instructor/hitting coach in the past ... for a monied franchise that happens to have a boat-load of All-Stars and MVP candidates who were great hitters BEFORE Mattingly.
Steinbrenner's edging toward the 80's-90's territory here. Too much hubris and excess and sense of entitlement which made the Yankees mock-worthy for nearly a decade. Obviously, the Yanks can never be a "bad" team since their payroll will keep them afloat and mistakes can be easily corrected/removed. But the more he dabbles, the worse off the Yanks are. He should just leave things alone and go back to eating his pudding in Tampa Bay.
#28
Some day I need to get a Yankee fan to explain to me why they love Don Mattingly so much.
He had like 3-4 super seasons, then was pretty average for about a decade...never making the postseason. Then the Yanks rip 4 titles in 5 years as soon as he retires. I just don't get it....he was a good pro, but Yankees fans act like he's an all-time great when he was really just a poor-man's Will Clark.
He had like 3-4 super seasons, then was pretty average for about a decade...never making the postseason. Then the Yanks rip 4 titles in 5 years as soon as he retires. I just don't get it....he was a good pro, but Yankees fans act like he's an all-time great when he was really just a poor-man's Will Clark.
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Originally Posted by Pull_T
Some day I need to get a Yankee fan to explain to me why they love Don Mattingly so much.
He had like 3-4 super seasons, then was pretty average for about a decade...never making the postseason. Then the Yanks rip 4 titles in 5 years as soon as he retires. I just don't get it....he was a good pro, but Yankees fans act like he's an all-time great when he was really just a poor-man's Will Clark.
He had like 3-4 super seasons, then was pretty average for about a decade...never making the postseason. Then the Yanks rip 4 titles in 5 years as soon as he retires. I just don't get it....he was a good pro, but Yankees fans act like he's an all-time great when he was really just a poor-man's Will Clark.
The NYC hype-machine (tends to make mountains out of molehills) certainly helped by fawning and falling over each other in hero worship. The Will Clark comparision is actually quite appropriate for both had similar career trajectories (great first several years followed by injury-plagued, power-sapped seasons where their name value exceeded their actual production on-field). If Will the Thrill had been a Yankee, he would've been EXTREMELY popular and considered an all-time Yankee great. And if Don was a Giant, he would've been considered a solid pro who's route to the HOF was derailed by injures. It goes to show how media influences and shapes popular opinion.
In any event, Mattingly never really shouldered the blame for the NYY mediocrity during his career ("we need more players like him!") and when the Yankees began their streak of success, Mattingly transitioned more into a tragic figure ("if only he was healthy ... he deserves this!") than anything else.
#31
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Originally Posted by PillsburyChoboy
I don't buy Mattingly as being a good manager
#32
Originally Posted by GIBSON6594
I think Torre is a great coach but a terrible manager
#33
Originally Posted by Pull_T
Some day I need to get a Yankee fan to explain to me why they love Don Mattingly so much.
He had like 3-4 super seasons, then was pretty average for about a decade...never making the postseason. Then the Yanks rip 4 titles in 5 years as soon as he retires. I just don't get it....he was a good pro, but Yankees fans act like he's an all-time great when he was really just a poor-man's Will Clark.
He had like 3-4 super seasons, then was pretty average for about a decade...never making the postseason. Then the Yanks rip 4 titles in 5 years as soon as he retires. I just don't get it....he was a good pro, but Yankees fans act like he's an all-time great when he was really just a poor-man's Will Clark.
even Mattingly in his prime could touch A-rod today.
I see A-rod breaking "the juice machine" i mean Bond's record.
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