MLB: Alex Rodriguez Used Steroids **Tipped Pitches to Opposing Hitters (page 4)**
#161
Benchwarmer
That's a decent analogy, but it's so hard to compare sports and school. Steroids have different affects on people because people have different abilities. I could shoot every steroid known to man in my body and train for years and I wouldn't be able to hold a candle to any major league player. The answers of a test would give equal results to all.
Let's say that you and I are competing on Wall Street. You pick and choose your stocks and trades based on your own analysis and I choose my stocks based on insider trading knowledge and then I buy up your firm using the money I made. That sucks, doesn't it?
Now applying your analogy, neither one of us could probably find our own asses if we entered a trading room, so insider knowledge would do neither one of us any good. It's all about an equal playing field for those who actually play on that field.
#162
Senior Moderator
GIBSON: See...the benefits of steroids is where you and I differ, which is fine.
But, on your final point there, my argument before was: Let's SAY you are IN the school already. You have the skills to get in. You worked your @$$ off to get in to go with the talent/abilities you have...
You work hard. You get good results. Then, one day, you find out that some individuals in class are cheating their way through school. How does that make you feel? Is your first answer: Hmm, I guess I'll cheat then. Is that what you'd do? I'm just saying that there is a moral and honor code in life. And to me, people like A-Fraud needs to be punished and they deserve ALL the ridicule and abuse tossed their way.
But, on your final point there, my argument before was: Let's SAY you are IN the school already. You have the skills to get in. You worked your @$$ off to get in to go with the talent/abilities you have...
You work hard. You get good results. Then, one day, you find out that some individuals in class are cheating their way through school. How does that make you feel? Is your first answer: Hmm, I guess I'll cheat then. Is that what you'd do? I'm just saying that there is a moral and honor code in life. And to me, people like A-Fraud needs to be punished and they deserve ALL the ridicule and abuse tossed their way.
#163
My Garage
But you aren't a baseball player, so the point is moot. For the 700 or so guys who call themselves major leaguers your analogy doesn't apply and that's where it is relevant.
Let's say that you and I are competing on Wall Street. You pick and choose your stocks and trades based on your own analysis and I choose my stocks based on insider trading knowledge and then I buy up your firm using the money I made. That sucks, doesn't it?
Now applying your analogy, neither one of us could probably find our own asses if we entered a trading room, so insider knowledge would do neither one of us any good. It's all about an equal playing field for those who actually play on that field.
Let's say that you and I are competing on Wall Street. You pick and choose your stocks and trades based on your own analysis and I choose my stocks based on insider trading knowledge and then I buy up your firm using the money I made. That sucks, doesn't it?
Now applying your analogy, neither one of us could probably find our own asses if we entered a trading room, so insider knowledge would do neither one of us any good. It's all about an equal playing field for those who actually play on that field.
I have a hard time on that analogy because of the small sample size. If 10 of the 700 brokers are using inside information, then yes, they should be punished (legality aside, for argument purposes). If 400 of 700 are using inside information, than my view is shame on those not using it. It's a loose reponse because of the allowances and condoning by MLB, but you can see the point.
#164
Senior Moderator
^ Dude...sorry man...but, that's horrible! So, in other words for you: if everyone's doing it, it must be okay.
C'mon man, that's so wrong!
C'mon man, that's so wrong!
#165
Keeping emos out of
No it's not okay to think that if everyone else is doing it then it must be fine. What about the players who never had a hint of steroids drama associated with them, are they not being cheated? How much better would Griffey Jr. stats be if he were on the juice and they helped him to recover from injuries quicker?
#166
My Garage
#167
My Garage
No it's not okay to think that if everyone else is doing it then it must be fine. What about the players who never had a hint of steroids drama associated with them, are they not being cheated? How much better would Griffey Jr. stats be if he were on the juice and they helped him to recover from injuries quicker?
#168
Benchwarmer
Hey, compared to 8 year olds, I'm one hell of a baseball player.
I have a hard time on that analogy because of the small sample size. If 10 of the 700 brokers are using inside information, then yes, they should be punished (legality aside, for argument purposes). If 400 of 700 are using inside information, than my view is shame on those not using it. It's a loose reponse because of the allowances and condoning by MLB, but you can see the point.
I have a hard time on that analogy because of the small sample size. If 10 of the 700 brokers are using inside information, then yes, they should be punished (legality aside, for argument purposes). If 400 of 700 are using inside information, than my view is shame on those not using it. It's a loose reponse because of the allowances and condoning by MLB, but you can see the point.
I think it's more like 104 of 700 were using inside information, and the FBI should come down hard on their asses.
#169
Keeping emos out of
I'm only using Griffey as an example, of course I have no first hand knowledge of who was on the juice and who was not. Surely you must agree that there were some good to great players in baseball who did not turn to steroids because others were using them. How can a true comparison be made between their stats and the stats of someone else who was juiced up? That's one big problem that i see with baseball and the steroid era. How can any stats from that era be believed and trusted?
#170
My Garage
I'm only using Griffey as an example, of course I have no first hand knowledge of who was on the juice and who was not. Surely you must agree that there were some good to great players in baseball who did not turn to steroids because others were using them. How can a true comparison be made between their stats and the stats of someone else who was juiced up? That's one big problem that i see with baseball and the steroid era. How can any stats from that era be believed and trusted?
Were there some clean greats? Sure.
Were some of those greats that everyone things were clean actually taking something? I'd bet anything.
#171
My Garage
I'm only using Griffey as an example, of course I have no first hand knowledge of who was on the juice and who was not. Surely you must agree that there were some good to great players in baseball who did not turn to steroids because others were using them. How can a true comparison be made between their stats and the stats of someone else who was juiced up? That's one big problem that i see with baseball and the steroid era. How can any stats from that era be believed and trusted?
#172
What Would Don Draper Do?
was it the '98 season when mcgwire and sosa were going after the babe's record? that season brought baseball back.
#173
Keeping emos out of
You are correct that the Great Homerun Chase did indeed save baseball from the doldrums encountered when they canceled the World Series a few years earlier but at what price?
#174
Senior Moderator
#175
Benchwarmer
#176
My Garage
Would you take it?
#177
Senior Moderator
Yummy, you're 25 years old. You are married, have 2 kids, and are a solid natural baseball player. Enough to make it to AAA, but you can't break into the major league level. You weren't particularly talented in any other areas of your academic course work. You made baseball your life and depended on succeeding like everyone thought you would. All of a sudden things are not going as planned. You have a nagging leg injury and are stuck in the minors. You're having trouble providing for your family and need money quickly. Quitting baseball and going to work at The Gap isn't going to cut it. Then someone tells you that if you take this injection, it will help your leg heal and allow you to train harder and get into the big leagues. You can make more money and support yourself and your family. All while living your dream and playing baseball.
Would you take it?
Would you take it?
My comeback to you is this: If I loved baseball and my dream was baseball, then living with the consequences of not making it into MLB would have been a setback and risk I took. It would've been something I would be ready for if I did not make it to the Big League.
If it came down to $$$$ and survival of my family, your suggestion to me of taking illegal substances is no better than me going up to my cousin Shaquon or Tyrone to help out with some..."deliveries". What if I got caught? I know it's a no-no already (c'mon, please, the excuse of steroids is not banned is bunk to me: ALL athletes know that doping in pro sports is not allowed - forget what was "written" in MLB rules if we're going into that tangent)...
So, yeah...back to my first part. If I know there's a potential of me not making it? Yeah, I would go bag groceries (please see Kurt Warner of the NFL). Yes, call me a boy scout.
#178
What Would Don Draper Do?
Oooo...bait. You're asking the wrong guy esp. when this guy has next to zero pirated games/movies/music (I buy all of my stuff and what I do have off of "educational" versions, I eventually bought to own on disc).
My comeback to you is this: If I loved baseball and my dream was baseball, then living with the consequences of not making it into MLB would have been a setback and risk I took. It would've been something I would be ready for if I did not make it to the Big League.
If it came down to $$$$ and survival of my family, your suggestion to me of taking illegal substances is no better than me going up to my cousin Shaquon or Tyrone to help out with some..."deliveries". What if I got caught? I know it's a no-no already (c'mon, please, the excuse of steroids is not banned is bunk to me: ALL athletes know that doping in pro sports is not allowed - forget what was "written" in MLB rules if we're going into that tangent)...
So, yeah...back to my first part. If I know there's a potential of me not making it? Yeah, I would go bag groceries (please see Kurt Warner of the NFL). Yes, call me a boy scout.
My comeback to you is this: If I loved baseball and my dream was baseball, then living with the consequences of not making it into MLB would have been a setback and risk I took. It would've been something I would be ready for if I did not make it to the Big League.
If it came down to $$$$ and survival of my family, your suggestion to me of taking illegal substances is no better than me going up to my cousin Shaquon or Tyrone to help out with some..."deliveries". What if I got caught? I know it's a no-no already (c'mon, please, the excuse of steroids is not banned is bunk to me: ALL athletes know that doping in pro sports is not allowed - forget what was "written" in MLB rules if we're going into that tangent)...
So, yeah...back to my first part. If I know there's a potential of me not making it? Yeah, I would go bag groceries (please see Kurt Warner of the NFL). Yes, call me a boy scout.
i thought you were
#179
Senior Moderator
#181
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (2)
I thought this was an interesting article written in the LA Times by Bob Nightengale on July 15, 1995
Anabolic steroids, the performance drugs of the 1980s in football, track, weightlifting and some other sports, apparently have become the performance drugs of the '90s in major league baseball.
"We all know there's steroid use, and it's definitely become more prevalent," said Randy Smith, general manager of the San Diego Padres. "The ballplayers all know the dangers of it. We preach it every year.
"But because there's so much money to be made these days, guys are willing to pay the price now and will pay the piper later.
"I can understand it's a difficult choice for some players. They know it can take five years off their lives, but then they say, `OK, so I die when I'm 75 instead of 80.' "
Just how prevalent is steroid use?
"I think 10% to 20%," Smith said. "No one has any hard-core proof, but there's a lot of guys you suspect."
Said one American League general manager, "I wouldn't be surprised if it's closer to 30%, although most people will say it's about 5% to 10%. We had one team in our league a few years ago that the entire lineup may have been on it.
"Come on, you just don't put on 50 pounds of muscle overnight, and hit balls out of stadiums. I'm seeing guys now who were washed up five years ago, and now they've got bat speed they've never had before. It's insane.
"You can usually pick them out, because eventually they start to get back problems."
There is no testing for steroid use in baseball. No baseball player has ever been suspended for steroid use, and even if a player were caught using steroids, baseball demands no penalty and offers no rehabilitation.
"I'd love to see testing myself," said Chicago White Sox first baseman Frank Thomas, one of baseball's big men at 6 feet 5 and 268 pounds. "If it can be done in every other sport, why not ours? At least it would get rid of the suspicions."
Added Thomas, who said he gained 35 pounds during the off-season, "I went in to see my doctor this winter, and he even asked me, `Hey, are you on steroids?' It's a question people are going to ask, especially (of) the big power hitters, unless something is done about it."
Said Padre all-star right fielder Tony Gwynn, "It's like the big secret we're not supposed to talk about, but believe me, we wonder just like the rest of people. I'm standing out there in the outfield when a guy comes up, and I'm thinking, `Hey, I wonder if this guy is on steroids.' I think we all have our suspicions who's on the stuff, but unless someone comes out and admits to it, who'll ever know for sure?"
Bud Selig, acting commissioner, said the topic was last addressed by owners in a private meeting a year or 18 months ago. The conclusion was that no one had any evidence that steroid use should be a concern.
"If baseball has a problem, I must say candidly that we were not aware of it," Selig said. "It certainly hasn't been talked about much. But should we concern ourselves as an industry? I don't know. Maybe it's time to bring it up again."
Said Kevin Malone, the Montreal Expos' general manager, "I'd like to see some measures taken. The game of baseball is supposed to be about purity and fairness, but if individuals are going around and getting an unfair advantage because of steroid use, we should do something about it.
"You hear the rumors that usage is way up, and it would be nice to know if those are accurate."
The Major League Players Assn., which prohibits random drug testing for any non-drug offender at the major league level, said steroid testing would violate individual rights. Without the consent of the players, there won't be steroid testing soon.
"We've got guys out there willing to risk their lives just for a piece of glory," Dodger relief pitcher Todd Worrell said. "But the problem is baseball's inability to set a policy and stand by the policy. If they set a policy, and stood up to it, it'd be different.
"But right now, there's no policy and nobody out there to enforce it.
"And until we do, we'll continue to have (steroid) problems, finger-pointing and controversy."
"We all know there's steroid use, and it's definitely become more prevalent," said Randy Smith, general manager of the San Diego Padres. "The ballplayers all know the dangers of it. We preach it every year.
"But because there's so much money to be made these days, guys are willing to pay the price now and will pay the piper later.
"I can understand it's a difficult choice for some players. They know it can take five years off their lives, but then they say, `OK, so I die when I'm 75 instead of 80.' "
Just how prevalent is steroid use?
"I think 10% to 20%," Smith said. "No one has any hard-core proof, but there's a lot of guys you suspect."
Said one American League general manager, "I wouldn't be surprised if it's closer to 30%, although most people will say it's about 5% to 10%. We had one team in our league a few years ago that the entire lineup may have been on it.
"Come on, you just don't put on 50 pounds of muscle overnight, and hit balls out of stadiums. I'm seeing guys now who were washed up five years ago, and now they've got bat speed they've never had before. It's insane.
"You can usually pick them out, because eventually they start to get back problems."
There is no testing for steroid use in baseball. No baseball player has ever been suspended for steroid use, and even if a player were caught using steroids, baseball demands no penalty and offers no rehabilitation.
"I'd love to see testing myself," said Chicago White Sox first baseman Frank Thomas, one of baseball's big men at 6 feet 5 and 268 pounds. "If it can be done in every other sport, why not ours? At least it would get rid of the suspicions."
Added Thomas, who said he gained 35 pounds during the off-season, "I went in to see my doctor this winter, and he even asked me, `Hey, are you on steroids?' It's a question people are going to ask, especially (of) the big power hitters, unless something is done about it."
Said Padre all-star right fielder Tony Gwynn, "It's like the big secret we're not supposed to talk about, but believe me, we wonder just like the rest of people. I'm standing out there in the outfield when a guy comes up, and I'm thinking, `Hey, I wonder if this guy is on steroids.' I think we all have our suspicions who's on the stuff, but unless someone comes out and admits to it, who'll ever know for sure?"
Bud Selig, acting commissioner, said the topic was last addressed by owners in a private meeting a year or 18 months ago. The conclusion was that no one had any evidence that steroid use should be a concern.
"If baseball has a problem, I must say candidly that we were not aware of it," Selig said. "It certainly hasn't been talked about much. But should we concern ourselves as an industry? I don't know. Maybe it's time to bring it up again."
Said Kevin Malone, the Montreal Expos' general manager, "I'd like to see some measures taken. The game of baseball is supposed to be about purity and fairness, but if individuals are going around and getting an unfair advantage because of steroid use, we should do something about it.
"You hear the rumors that usage is way up, and it would be nice to know if those are accurate."
The Major League Players Assn., which prohibits random drug testing for any non-drug offender at the major league level, said steroid testing would violate individual rights. Without the consent of the players, there won't be steroid testing soon.
"We've got guys out there willing to risk their lives just for a piece of glory," Dodger relief pitcher Todd Worrell said. "But the problem is baseball's inability to set a policy and stand by the policy. If they set a policy, and stood up to it, it'd be different.
"But right now, there's no policy and nobody out there to enforce it.
"And until we do, we'll continue to have (steroid) problems, finger-pointing and controversy."
#183
What Would Don Draper Do?
Report: A-Rod tipped pitches, juiced while on Yankees
and it gets worse...or better (depending on who you are)
http://www.newsday.com/iphone/ny-spa...,5735889.story
http://www.newsday.com/iphone/ny-spa...,5735889.story
Joe Girardi's pregame news conference began Thursday with a barrage of questions about the latest allegations surrounding Alex Rodriguez and one question about swine flu.
Just your typical day around the Yankees.
For the record: A-Rod did not cause the swine flu outbreak; the question was about whether Girardi is concerned about the disease, given that the Yankees travel a lot. (He is, but the team is taking every precaution.)
Rodriguez was the subject of more speculation Thursday after published reports cited some details from the upcoming Selena Roberts book, "A-Rod."
And making it a totally A-Rod-centric early evening before the Yankees hosted the Angels was the baseball part of the story. Rodriguez played in his first extended spring training rehab game Thursday as he recovers from hip surgery and appears on schedule to join the Yankees before the original estimate of May 15.
Rodriguez went 1-for-6 with a home run and two walks as the designated hitter and then spoke to reporters afterward in Tampa, Fla. He did not discuss the allegations from the book that were reported on Thursday.
In the report, a high school teammate of A-Rod's told Roberts that Rodriguez was on steroids as a high school player and that his coach knew it - an allegation the coach, Rich Hofman, denied.
It also said an unnamed major-leaguer is quoted as saying A-Rod and former Yankees pitcher Kevin Brown were seen together with human growth hormone in 2004. The book, according to the report, also says that two anonymous Yankees said they believed A-Rod was using banned substances based on visual side effects, and that a clubhouse staffer said management had a suspicion that the third baseman may have been juicing.
According to the report, the book also accuses Rodriguez of tipping pitches to opponents during blowouts and that he expected those players to reciprocate when he needed a hit and it would not affect the outcome of games.
"I'm not going there,'' he said of the new steroid allegations. "I'm just so excited about being back on the field and playing baseball. My team has won two games [in a row] up there and hopefully I can come back and help them win some more.''
Roberts' book is scheduled to be released Monday. She is one of the Sports Illustrated reporters who broke the story of A-Rod's failed drug test when he was a member of the Texas Rangers. Rodriguez later admitted to using a banned substance from 2001-03.
"I'm in a good place," Rodriguez said Thursday. "I think more importantly, physically I feel like I'm getting better every day. We've had a great week here. We've worked extremely hard, and I'm just very anxious to do what God put me on this Earth to do, to play baseball.''
Girardi and general manager Brian Cashman would not comment on the specifics of the report.
Compiled from staff and wire reports. This story was supplemented with an Associated Press report.
Just your typical day around the Yankees.
For the record: A-Rod did not cause the swine flu outbreak; the question was about whether Girardi is concerned about the disease, given that the Yankees travel a lot. (He is, but the team is taking every precaution.)
Rodriguez was the subject of more speculation Thursday after published reports cited some details from the upcoming Selena Roberts book, "A-Rod."
And making it a totally A-Rod-centric early evening before the Yankees hosted the Angels was the baseball part of the story. Rodriguez played in his first extended spring training rehab game Thursday as he recovers from hip surgery and appears on schedule to join the Yankees before the original estimate of May 15.
Rodriguez went 1-for-6 with a home run and two walks as the designated hitter and then spoke to reporters afterward in Tampa, Fla. He did not discuss the allegations from the book that were reported on Thursday.
In the report, a high school teammate of A-Rod's told Roberts that Rodriguez was on steroids as a high school player and that his coach knew it - an allegation the coach, Rich Hofman, denied.
It also said an unnamed major-leaguer is quoted as saying A-Rod and former Yankees pitcher Kevin Brown were seen together with human growth hormone in 2004. The book, according to the report, also says that two anonymous Yankees said they believed A-Rod was using banned substances based on visual side effects, and that a clubhouse staffer said management had a suspicion that the third baseman may have been juicing.
According to the report, the book also accuses Rodriguez of tipping pitches to opponents during blowouts and that he expected those players to reciprocate when he needed a hit and it would not affect the outcome of games.
"I'm not going there,'' he said of the new steroid allegations. "I'm just so excited about being back on the field and playing baseball. My team has won two games [in a row] up there and hopefully I can come back and help them win some more.''
Roberts' book is scheduled to be released Monday. She is one of the Sports Illustrated reporters who broke the story of A-Rod's failed drug test when he was a member of the Texas Rangers. Rodriguez later admitted to using a banned substance from 2001-03.
"I'm in a good place," Rodriguez said Thursday. "I think more importantly, physically I feel like I'm getting better every day. We've had a great week here. We've worked extremely hard, and I'm just very anxious to do what God put me on this Earth to do, to play baseball.''
Girardi and general manager Brian Cashman would not comment on the specifics of the report.
Compiled from staff and wire reports. This story was supplemented with an Associated Press report.
#185
Benchwarmer
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