JediMindTricks

1. as for titles and trophies, i'm a strong believer in that those are team titles and shevchenko's milan teams have been stronger, especially in champions league. henry's arsenal teams never made it past the quarterfinals until, what 2005?

so just because sheva has more titles than henry doesn't necessarily make him a better player.

i mean raul has won more trophies than both henry and sheva, but i don't think anyone would factor in the number of trophies won to argue that raul is a better player than both.

2. sheva did win european footballer of the year, but honestly, henry was jipped in 2003 and 2004 when his arsenal team went undefeated. (he did finish runner up in fifa world player of the year twice)

michael owen won the european footballer of the year in 2001, but nobody will put him near 15 of henry at the moment.

3. as for the goal-scoring record, i'd say it's a wash, really. but here's the kicker. remember, henry started off as a winger. he never scored more than 10 league golas in a season until he came to arsenal.

but both players started professionally in 94/95.

in 94-99, when sheva was at kiev and henry at monaco and one season at juventus (as a winger), sheva wins the goal scoring: 94 (166 app) to 31 (157)

from 1999-2007, when sheva was at milan and chelsea and henry at arsenal (now playing as a striker), henry wins: 226 (364) to 187 (347).

but i'm going to still call it a wash because there are SOO many other factors that come into play when considering goal-scoring rates such as both were their clubs' primary penalty takers, henry took free kicks but also took corners so wasn't able to be on the receiving end of those, sheva played in a defensive-minded serie a, how many shots on goal per shots?, how many minutes have each played? etc.

so i'm gonna call it even.

really stats can only take you so far, and stats will make you believe what you want to believe.
---

but let's talk about skills and talent.

really, the only CLEAR advantage shevchenko has over henry is heading.

to me, the main advantage henry has is that he's the better playmaker and creator. not only does he score goals, but he also creates goals. 24 league goals and a record 23 assists in 2002-2003. unbelievable.

both players have loads of pace, but henry is faster. when in his prime and healthy, henry was the most elegant player i this era of footballers.

but they both have great movement off the ball and are clinicial. i'd say sheva is a better finisher than henry though.

both are versatile and have shown they can play as a typical #9 or as a support striker.

it's really close. i really don't know who's better. but it's not that big of a margin either way.

(and for the record, in my book, ronaldo in his prime > both henry and shevchenko)

JediMindTricks

ah too late to edit.

but let me finish by saying this.

i've had this discussion with a random londoner at a bar a few weeks ago. and here's why i wanting to sheva's better than henry.

club-wise, i think it's a wash.

but international level, sheva literally carried the ukraine team on his back through qualifying and to the second round of the world cup.

during zidane's brief retirement, henry did not play well for france during wc qualifying. and we'll see now if he can be the one to carry france to glory post-zidane.

herbalist

i'll agree with a lot of what you said JMT.

1. i've always thought of Sheva having more pace than Henry. that being said, i've never seen them line up against each other in a 100m dash.

2. both players are great finishers but its Sheva's touch around the goal, espacially with his head, gives him the advantage.

3. Sheva is a big game player. He is the man when he plays on the biggest stages. I don't think the same could be same of Henry.

when its all said and done, Shevchenko will go down as one of, if not the best European strikers in history. IMO, Henry has a bit more to do to have his name added to the debate.

don't make me bump the Andriy Shevchenko thread...

JediMindTricks

fair enough.

well i doubt that they they've lined up in a 100m dash, but i'm confident in saying that henry is faster.

and yes, you brought up a good point in that sheva has come through in the big moments. and henry has yet to do that while leading a team. but i believe that even if both players ended their careers today, henry will still be considered one of the best strikers of all time.

gocubsgo55

You're crazy. Call me biased, but just take a look at what Henry has done in the Prem with who he had around him. Chavchenko can't even get a set starting job at Chelsky.

I shed a tear thinking about it, looking back at my old TH14 videos...

JediMindTricks

like i said in my previous post, sheva's always had a stronger team in milan than henry's had at arsenal.

but don't discredit what shevchenko's done in serie a, which is reknowned for its defensive-mindedness.

and in fairness to sheva, he did have a bad season at chelsea. but i'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt because many world class players have come to the epl and struggled their first season.

and he did play a different position as he dropped back into the midfield and played mostly as a support striker for drogba. even drogba has said that without shevchenko doing a lot of the gritty work and picking up ball in the midfield, he wouldn't have had a lot of the space and opportunities to score so many goals.

gocubsgo55

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K0VtVWyxzQ&NR=1

Made me tear hearing some of the announcers' calls, brought back some memories. Goosebumps...

And with that, the Arsenal that dominated the late 90s and early 00s is officially done.

Viera, Pires, Bergkamp, and now Henry. I have the latter 2 jerseys packed up in a box now as a tribute. When I get older, they'll go up onto the wall of my house some day, and I'll recall the joy they brought my youth and the pride to my team

moonraker

ya, we kind of knew he was going to put a young team... and although it might suck in terms of not advancing or doing that well, i think its a good move to develop the youth. but i am slightly biased since my buddy drew moor from fc dallas just got a call up to the team for the tourney! so f'n pumped right now. played with him for 6 years and now he gets to try and get a cap on the national stage for the first team (played u20s a couple years ago). ya know whats funny is he played striker for all our school teams and set all kinds of scoring records, but played D for club team, college, and now MLS. thought that was funny

JediMindTricks

awesome! tell him i said good luck!

yea, we all knew it was gonna be a young team since our priority has to be the gold cup. but when bob said about 8-12 players will carry over to the copa squad and with the likes of dempsey and gooch saying they want to play in both tourneys, i think a lot of fans were hoping to have a stronger squad.

but this is will be a good experience for these guys because most of the players are too old for the u-21 and not quite there for the senior squad. so it'll be a good learning experience since some of these guys are gonna be on the u-23 that will try to make the olympics.

i think bob saw the argentina roster and just got scared...

JediMindTricks

USA 2 - 1 Mexico!!!!

(awesome, i just passed 3,000 posts! )

Ruserious

iTrader: (2)

USA USA USA USA!!!!
80% of the Fans at the stadium were Mexicans though....
USA USA USA USA!!!!

JediMindTricks

but i would bet that 23% of them are really "americans"

BstonBruin

I didn't get a chance to watch the match today...I was at an air show all day. I heard Feilhaber had quite the goal...he is going to be one excellent talent by the time '10 comes around. Its good that he didn't accept to join the Austrian national team. Its funny reading the last names of the US roster, Feilhaber...Ching...Bocanegra....Bornstein..

JediMindTricks

america is the melting pot.

and yea, the feilhaber goal was awesome.

and this was a huge win for us because i can't remember the last time we beat mexico after trailing and not playing so well.

as for benny again, he will be an interesting player to see because i've always thought we needed a central midfielder that can really connect the defense to forwards, create and attack. sometimes we've had to use landon in that spot, but landon needs to be in the upper third instead of box to box.

john o'brien was that guy and in my opinion could have become the best american player ever. but he's always been injured.

i remember before the gold cup, there was a lot of hope of feilhaber becoming the american fabregas. i sooo hope that is true.

BstonBruin

I just saw Feilhaber's goal...wow to me it shows some real maturity, beyond his years. 7 out of 10 times you see people just drooling over a shot out of the air like that and then missing it way over the net. He really took that shot so calm, and just tried to place it in the left upper 90. Truly commendable imo. Fabregassss. Can't wait to see the Argentina - USA game!

For the first time I'm really getting excited about this national team.

FastAcura

Finally it's official, Miro Klose goes to Munich. I don't even think he'll be starting...Good for Werder that they got some money for him, but now they need a replacement.

JediMindTricks

about time...talk about a LONG process.

what was the transfer fee?

so bayern's got klose, podolski, toni, makaay, and santa cruz? and they've also bought ribery and ze roberto resigned.

i guess makaay can start looking for a new home.

EDIT: nevermind. just saw that it was reported for 10m pounds. who can werder get now?

gocubsgo55

I wanted Ribery to come to our squad as a solid LM who would be as versitile as Ljundberg. Now the talks surround Malouda coming from Lyon, and some duo from Ajax (if Anelka falls through; Anelka is Wenger's primary target) so much for our "Young Guns" movement...

FastAcura

No idea who Bremen are gonna get now. They've been looking at Carlos Alberto from Brazil, but him and Klose are totally different type of players, but I think Klaus Allofs will find someone before the season goes under way.

JediMindTricks

i think arsenal were priced out of ribery. no way wenger's gonna spend 17m pounds for him.

frankly, i don't see how you lose with malouda though. experienced, still young (26-27), and he's a goal-scoring lm. but he might be out of range too since his rate is around 15m pounds also.

the youth movement is still intact with arsenal: cesc, denilson, diaby, adebayor, vela, bendtner, djourou, etc are all still VERY young.

the ajax duo that were being mentioned were babel and huntelaar. babel has been wanting to join arsenal for awhile but just said he'll play next season for ajax and then look to transfer away. he's kind of a poor man's henry. he's still only 21ish.

huntelaar is the guy i would want if i were wenger. he's a bit different than the normal arsenal strikers because he can play as an out-and-out striker. he's supposed to be ruud's heir. arsenal have enough support strikers, and they need someone that can just finish in the box and get the "messy" goals.

anelka would be an interesting choice, and an ironic one since henry was signed to replace him. still only 28, he's got world class talent, pace, and experience. and he's been revitalized at bolton and after returning to the france team. but he's still lazy, got a big ego, and it'll be interesting to see if wenger really does decide to take a risk on him again.

at least if he does, he'll stop scoring wonder goals against arsenal

JediMindTricks

http://www.rangers.premiumtv.co.uk/p...062514,00.html

damarcus beasley signs for rangers.

i think this is a good move for him. rangers is a "big" club and he'll play in the champions league. though he probably would have preferred the epl, this is a better move than staying at manchester city.

gocubsgo55

Yeah . Big Sam is gone so hopefully the Reebok won't be as painful this year.

Anyway, money is something Arsenal have never really used to win, rather scouting out young talent. Anelka is choice #1 according to the sources, which really pisses me off. I feel Malouda would allow for Theo Walcott to move up to his true position, along with RvP and Ade.

JediMindTricks

true, but arsenal did pay a lot for reyes and walcott. but yea, wenger's philosophy has been buying young and cheap and selling at the right moment. you have to give him credit. all the stars and veterans he's sold - vieira, overmars, petit, anelka, etc - have been at the right time and they've never duplicated the form and success that they've shown for arsenal.

walcott's still a work in progress, and he must be disappointed to see henry leave because he's been saying how much he wants to learn from him. it's bendtner that i'm intrigued about.

i think i'd go in with rvp and ade as your starters but start walcott and bendtner for ever carling cup match.

gocubsgo55

Ade, along with Senderos and Hleb are the 3 iffy's every Arsenal supporter cringes at when they hear either in the starting 11. Adebayor has the potential for greatness: height, the legs, and good presence. Unforunately, he hesitates far too often and tends to over or under shoot, depending on the situation. Walcott will get some starts this year. We might be seeing some of the even younger guys like Vela and Larrson come in for the CC. Anyway I didn't want to make this the "Arsenal Transfer Market Thread", just sharing my passion for my club.

On a side note, the funny thing is I am on my laptop right now watching the Cubs game, with an Arsenal t-shirt on

JediMindTricks

so now the rumor is wenger wants obafemi martins. good choice imo. he's younger than anelka too.

gocubsgo55

Woke up to read this:

http://home.skysports.com/list.aspx?...e&f=rss&clid=4

There is always talk of different people going here and there. The Sun reported that Eto'o was coming to Arsenal, no way, although there is real interest in him apparently.

I would love Martins personally. As for Eto'o and Anelka, Chelsea have interest in both of them, and they've already put a bid in for Malouda as well.

JediMindTricks

i never believed any of the rumors of arsenal buying eto'o because he's just too expensive.

i thought the possibility of eto'o being involved in a swap for henry was more plausible.

JediMindTricks

sooo...

usa 1
argentina 4

i was going nuts after eddie johnson's pk. then crespo equalizes 2 minutes later on a cheeky chip from riquelme's fk.

i go into halftime thinking our B team is holding it down against the best team in the world.

then the blood bath begins and argentina score 3 straight.

oh well...i think any realistic u.s. fan would have expected this scoreline. heck, i was expecting 4-0.

but man argentina are fun to watch. quick one touches, one-twos. great runs. i hope our guys learned a lot today.

herbalist

here's an interesting Adidas ad if you haven't seen it already

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wfpm7FrdQyI"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wfpm7FrdQyI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

not really an ad i guess

JediMindTricks

yea i saw that. i'm impressed that reggie bush can juggle.

at beckham punting the crap out of that ball.

herbalist

becks burned bush on that one play

JediMindTricks

it looked like it but i'm sure reggie gave that to him.

it was cool when he took a fk while reggie ran a route and caught the ball.

MikeCLS6

the USA vs. Argentina outcome was expected....not shocked at all

JediMindTricks

not at all.

but i thought our guys played better than expected up until the 60th minute when olsen was subbed out for gaven. olsen was playing very well, and gaven just sucks now. no hustle, no confidence, confused.

and argentina wasn't really at their best either. veron and riquelme looked to be clashing and running into each other at times.

but here are some things i took from the game:
1. as much as i like keller and what he's done for us, i think his hopes of still being our #1 should be dashed away. he can still play, but he's too slow now, and his reaction time is too long. howard must be our #1. then hahnemann and guzan should be given their run for the #2 gk spot.

2. if the whole purpose of playing in this tournament was to see which of fringe players deserve a look at 2010 and qualifiers, then i think this match did its job. eddie gaven and taylor twellman should not be considered anymore.

3. conrad and demerit played ver well in the back. and as big a gooch fan that i am, i am thinking maybe this is the better partnership.

4. argentina really got going when messi switched to the left to match up against wynne. bornstein was holding his own against messi. i think bornstein was more marking him and not allowing him to get the ball. where wynne was in a lot of 1v1 situations with messi. but wynne was really overmatched. simek?

5. anyone notice how mapp was just owned all night by zanetti. i think that's where i saw the clear difference between an experienced world class player and an mls star.

JediMindTricks

liverpool making big moves.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...pe/6239286.stm

1. looks like liverpool will finally land fernando torres for a whopping 26.5m pounds.

2. diego forlan will replace torres at athletico madrid for 14.5m pounds.

3. luis garcia may be headed to athletico madrid for 4.5m pounds.

4. gabriel heinze may be moving to liverpool.

it seems the inevitable is finally happening. but a few quick thoughts.

1. these epl clubs are throwing cash left and right. 26.5m pounds for torres. 16.5 for bent. 9.75 for ashley young. i still cannot understand how arsenal only got 16m for henry. heck, even athletico are paying 14.5 for diego forlan!

2. i dunno what it is about torres. but i think he is so overrated. and that's the same sentiment i get from friends that live in spain. apparently, everyone except spain thinks highly of him.

3. wayne rooney is given the #10 shirt for man.utd!

moonraker

yea, should be interesting should torres finally leave. i remember reading when man utd was interested in him. hell, the top 5 teams in the premiership practically were interested in him. but yea, he's not "proven" enough for me yet. sure, he's good, but for that kind of money he needs to be GREAT.

also, sidenote, i'm starting to notice that liverpool is bringing an entire spanish contingent over as the article pointed out... reina, rafa, xabi, now torres, etc

and on the other side, man utd are building a strong portuguese speaking contingent... ronaldo, nani, anderson, asst coach quieroz etc. just thought that was funny.

then chelsea has the rest of europe, shev (ukr), ballack (ger), robben (holland).

oh, and i think about henry the only reason the fee was low was because of his age/injury prone-ness recently? that's all i could think it would be.

iamhomin

I was thinking the same thing. A lot of the EPL signings are overrated and some players are WAY overpaid. Interestingly though, there are enough underpaid players to negate these awful spendings..

JediMindTricks

from reports, henry contacted barcelona in may about a possible transfer. so barca knew he wanted to come, and arsenal knew he wanted to leave. apparently, barca first offered only 13m pounds because heck, they knew they were gonna get him. arsenal wanted 24m. and since this was a "forced" transfer, i think that's why the fee was so low.

then you have to consider factors like age and an injury-filled season. so in that case, i can see how arsenal got so little.

yea, liverpool are building an armada.

it's kinda like how ac milan have lots of brazilians and inter have all the argentinians.

JediMindTricks

yea i dunno what it is with epl teams willing to pay SO much. phil mcnulty had an interesting article about how epl teams are willing to pay a premium for english talent.

bent (16.5m), ashley young (9.75m), owen hargreaves (17m), etc.

Lister00169

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/st...442670&cc=5901

Is this guy for real??? What nerve Lampard has that he is worth more than Andriy Shevchenko?!

I mean 15 million pounds is a great contract and I just don't see how he could go for any more than that given his recent performance.

I say let the Spanish and Italian clubs over pay for this guy.

As you can tell, I am not a fan of Frank