Quoting myself because of the time limit on editing. When you make a system to compensate for shortcomings of a platform to keep up with the competition, then you are already 2 steps behind.

Lets face it...Acura did not come out with SH-AWD because it wanted to be a Subaru competitor...Acura came out with the system to help relieve the severe understeer of its Accord platform. It did this to keep up with RWD cars in its class. And what is the result? Yes, SH-AWD is a brilliant idea and the execution is cool. However, you end up with a car that is several hundred pounds heavier than the competition with relatively poor fuel economy and modest power output. So, acceleration numbers are down...and you end up with a car that is last in acceleration, heaviest in class, but handles pretty good (but is not class leading in this either). What do you expect?

C&D and most other magazines focus on sports car handling and acceleration, not on telemetics (where Acura is class leading), safety ratings, or interior quality. This is where the CONSUMERS come in. Most consumers (me included) love Acura for the reasons mentioned in the previous post, not its Nuringburg (sp?) time nor its track credentials. (I used to own a 2003.5 M3...and even that thing is truly not track ready...so what is the point?)

My opinion.

 

Prior to your post above (and after your previous one), I was also going reference the TSX being a ton better than the C300. While I'm certain I'd get a TSX over the C300, I wasn't too certain that it'd be the same vs the C350.....that is until the debut of the TSX V6. (Some time spent in a C300 had me yearning for my some drive time in my 07 AV6.)

While the TSX may not have the sporting edge of the E90, I definitely think it's now more than a worthy alternative to the C-class, A4 and maybe even the IS (to some degree anyway). Honestly, I cannot wait to see a TSX V6 vs C350 vs A4 3.2 vs IS350 test....although I fear the TSX's lower pricetag may exclude it from said comparo.

PetesTL: , there is more to the BMW than just having the badge. The seat time I spent behind the wheel of several E60 versions (sadly excluding the M5), does justify your statement IMHO:

"You can definately see it in the details....the trim, insulation, moldings, fasteners, etc. So what you are paying for in essence is not only the badge but all the little nuances, details, and the idiocyncracies in owning a fine German automobile."

While drinking the kook-aid too quickly is inadvisable, a sip or two is warranted.

 

Tig, nothing against you bro, we agree on lots of stuff, the point is that the Accord is highly regarded, just as the 3 series, becuase of their leading platforms but for different reasons. I don't believe there is bias against Acura, only that there is without a doubt a rwd bias in the segment, which is only fair if all the class was intended to be pure sports cars, that's not the case. The TL is that Accord platform, so yeah it doesn't fit the segment's mold by chasis, but it still competes there, and doesn't mean it shouldn't compete elsewhere. Acura models will overlap for now.
If you didn't get my point of the TLS, then you don't really get the point. There are a number of cars in the segment that don't beat a 335i in any performance aspect, but they are still there and the TLS will match the 335i in any of them, other than straightline. There are a number of cars in higher segments that can't compete with a 335i in any performance aspect, but that doesn't mean they should move down. The point is it doesn't need rwd to be sporty, and can compete in higher classes becuase other than not being a pure sports car it does eveything else better, just like a higher classed car does. I don't see how platform determines where a car is placed in class. It doesn't make sense to me that a TSX competes with the C300's and 328's, but than a completely different model is needed to compete against the C350's and 335's, LOL, who came up with this? If the TSX sucks in that class than it sucks, but that is the car for that segment.

The TL SH may be looked at as being in a lower class than the 535xi and E350 4matic, but they are ideal competitors and are specifically the same kind of car, just brand variants. No one would argue if the RL competes there, that's obvious, and the TL SH is much more like another RL model than an upgraded TL because it is it's replacement. The RL will be moving up segment so there is no doubt that the TL competes with those cars, just that the TL does it at a more affordable level.

 

Tigmd99, winstrolvtec is talking about the TL-S setting a lap time 2 seconds faster than both the 2nd gen G35S 6MT and the IS350 at Willow Springs Racetrack. This test was conducted by the famous Keiichi Tsuchiya. In one of the Best Motoring episodes, the G35S has been shown to be just as fast as the 335i at Tsukuba. What does it mean? Well, it's up to you to decide since every track is different. Being faster at Willow Springs doesn't mean it's also faster at Tsukuba, and vice versa. But what we can safely conclude is that, the FWD, Accord-based 3G TL-S can hold its own against its more power RWD competitors on race tracks. One could only imagine how good the car would be if it were equipped with SH-AWD or simply RWD.

 

Pete I disagree with you totally, Infiniti looks just like Nissan interior wise and Lexus does not spend the money Toyota does, further more 60% of Lexus lineup is based on a Toyota counterpart. Lexus craftsmanship is there yes but so is the RL's I think anything built in Japan is crafted better than built here. Infiniti has the V 8 and rwd's but are still losing to Acura were it matters "sales". Give Acura credit for producing new vechicles in this econmy and there obviously was something Pete that you enjoyed over the comp which made you choose the TL.. IMHO Tier 1 is suceptive and everyone has their favorites,for example German car fans do not percieve Lexus as Tier 1.

 

^^^Agreed, I think Acura doesn't spend the money to distinguish itself becuase there really is no need to. Honda builds a great product, everyone agrees, so why mess with a good thing. They have a very smart, conservative approach to the market, dare I say maybe the smartest. For those who want a pure sports car, when Acura intends to launch one is when we will get one, but that is not the purpose of it's current lineup, so why does everyone downgrade them based on that, it's not like Honda can't build one, just look at the success of the NSX and S2000. Here's a guess, because of stupid, biased, unobjective magazine comparisons that cloud the general public perception, which just so happens to be the reason this thread started in the first place. If you think it's bad in here, check out autospies and other general automotive forums, people legitimately want the brand to die, but I like that because all that attention, good or bad, means they must be doing something right. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is sales (good point Mikey), and they can't be as bad as everyone thinks, otherwise we wouldn't be here having this diccussion.

 

Hey there,

First of all, who really cares about what a mag wrote about the TL? It's bathroom reading!

I must say all of you make very valid points and I admit, I'm new to all this but in the end, its the sales numbers that matters and since the TL is doing decent during a crappy economic cycle, I would say it's quite a success!

We have to look and comparable cars to draw a conclusion so a TL and a BMW 5 might not be the best comparison or it might.

We say beauty is in the eye of the beholder but so is overall value. IMHO, with my budget, the TL offered more, more space for my tall body, I knew the dealer and it's located 3 minutes from home so other considerations were taken as well.

Have a good day!

 

Pete, my old pal, I generally love your posts but I have to call pure unadulterated BULL**** on this one. If by "nuances" and "idiosyncracies" you mean controls than no one understands on the dash or the incomprehensibility of i-drive, then I'd say you've nailed it, otherwise I go back to my original premise...BULL****.

>>> My previous BMW 545i had an onboard computer so complex that it took 1-2 full days just to update the software!<<<

And then, let's keep our fingers crossed that it continued to work by the time you drove it home. Newsflash. The electronics in a TL are every bit as complex....they just work (a novel concept to some German offerings). Last time I checked, the purpose of a car was to remain operable as close to 100% of the time as possible. "Attention to detail," Quality parts," etc. are all hallmarks of Japanese manufacturers. If the iconic German offerings were so obsessed with detail and the quality of construction, why would their machines arrive at the consumer with myriad more defects than their Japanese counterparts? All you have to do is look up JD Powers new car satisfaction index to verify what I've said. And then, after delivery, why do the iconic Germans require so much more servicing than the equivalent Japanese vehicle? (Again, this can be verified in numerous ways) Face it, the German's have been getting by on pure snob appeal for a very long time. Change the badging on an Acura or an Infinity and the MSM car rags would be gushing all over themselves. Don't drink that cool-aid dude...it's just total BS.

 

 

Let's give some credit where it's due, their chassis' are rock solid, great brakes and feel, exceptional ride quality considering how sporty the nature of the suspension, and some of the worlds best performance oriented engines, in the highest trims naturally. I'm not trying to take anything away, but outside of mostly that, they suffer in just about every other area. The normal stuff like BMW's twin turbo six is nice, but not that crazy, and the MB 3.5 is screaming for an upgrade, it's a shame that is going in the new E class. Simple, if you buy the Germans low grade stuff you are getting robbed, you want a fine German engineered exotic luxury sports car, buy a 7 or S, even better, an M or AMG, expensive, yes, but a little more justified than spending $65k on a 535 or E350, or $55k on a little 3 series or C class. You are just paying for the super car platform, which is fine, but the problem is you are not getting the super car, IMO that's just posing or a wannabe mentality, not just from the buyer but also by the manufacturer. Some might argue that you will never be able to use what you pay for in a car, like an M, or any other really high end performance vehicle, but that is another discussion altogether. When it comes to the normal everyday German stuff, they are no better than the Japs, some may argue that they build a better sports capable vehicle or platform but the Jap couterparts are just overall better cars.

 

Really, who the hell cares what the rags talk about? The fact that the magazine pits three incomplete cars against a TL SH-AWD, and it is right there with the, "performance," sedans - and they cannot stand it - is silly.

Okay, some people are not used to the grill. Big fucking deal. I love it, it sets the car apart in a great way. The overall styling of my SH-AWD makes every (yes, I typed... every) other car look dated.

Let's not even talk about features. And not just features. I mean features that will work reliably, every time. How many other OEM talk about that? ... I didn't think so.

Don't kid yourself, the TL SH-AWD is the new bar, and Acura is its own biggest competitor.

 

well put

 

the car mags can't be taken too seriously. I find *some* of the articles to be right about some things, and wrong about others. ultimately, so much about a car is subjective that it all depends on who writes the article. I also firmly believe that the car mags MUST be in bed to some extent with the manufacturers. C'mon - do you really think the car mags make ALL thei rmoney just from advertising??? or do you think someone at BMW says something to the effect of "if our 3 series WINS against the TL and the G37 in the next comparo" maybe a check will show up at your door for $$$$. and we'll make sure you get another M5 and M6, and M3 for "long term" test mules....

aka - BRIBES....

c'mon - that's how the world works. our politicians are crooks, our business are all crooked - the car dealers sure as hell are crooked - you think the car *magazines* are somehow 100% legit??? or course they are biased. they can't lie about objective facts like curb weight, or tire sizes...but the "gotta have it" factors - WTF is that for???

if you value handling finesse above EVERYTHING - you would pick the 3 series. i would suspect that if you put a TL against the 3 series - and took them both out on a really twisty road and the ONLY factor you cared about was steering feel, cornering, and having "fun" then the 3 wins. of course, if you were ONLY going to do that, I wouldn't take either of them. I'd take my Porsche....

for an "all arounder" car - I think the TL is a hardcore competitor.... I think this article put too much focus on driving feel and sportiness vs. being an all arouind sedan. once again - they know the result of the comparo before it ever begins, and they just write it / compare them to get where they want to go.

these magazines are fun to read in the crapper....but sometimes, the "stuff" written on the pages is smellier than the "stuff" in the bowl...

 

By that logic VW & Toyota should win all comparision tests. as they have the most cash on there books. I dont think even the rest of auto makers can even combined matched them. They didnt even invited a toyota product aka Lexus.
There are only 4 to 5 mainstream magazines/websites left. few millions dollars of advertizing budget is not a big deal to buy all of them.

 

Well, you gotta understand that, sometimes, even if you have the most cash, if your cars are really not up to par...then there's not much you can do.....

 

So, Acura is the only honest car manufacturer?? You guys are too funny....

 

Kool-Aid comes in different flavors.

 

^^ hahaha

 

Classic "blind enthusiasm"...or just pure utterly bias opinions....

 

I don't think anyone claimed that Acura was the "only" honest manufacturer, that's hardly fair. Is it blind enthusiasm or is it just enthusiasm for different reasons? Considering that, it would lead many to believe that you happen to display a stronger case for ones blind enthusiasm or biased opinions. Anytime you want to wite more than one sentence you come back, we like to listen. Enjoy your Kool-Aid.

 

Actually, i have written more than one sentence in THIS very thread...i guess that reading is not your strong point??

 

Way to post the obvious, I guess elaboration is not yours.

 

I just read the article...it seems like they complain a lot about the 328i too but somehow it won...because it feels better...lol....the comments for the TL are the obvious ones - too many buttons and lacking some steering feel, but other than that, it's seem to be pretty solid, and somehow it's ranked last. The acceleration numbers for the G37, TL, and A4 seem to be much slower than before. The G37 tested before was running in the mid 13's trapping well over 100mph, but this time it ran a 14@100mph only. The TL as we all know ran a 14.8@97mph before. The A4 2.0T Quattro ran a 14.4@94mph before, and only 15.1@92mph this time? The 328i on the other hand, obtained its best time this time around. That really makes me wonder....

 

It's funny to read this thread with people here thinking that Acura builds better cars than BMW and Mercedes, C/D must have a bunch of idiots working for them and none of them seem to know much about cars according to you guys.
Actually you guys replying to this thread seem to be the real experts, maybe some of you should apply to the car rags as reviewers, we would all be better off if you did.
I'm also sure if you you could have a BMW, Mercedes or Acura that you would all take an Acura right?
Please...........
I love my TL but I also understand that it is just that,

 

It is like the coffee-canned Honda Civic talking smack to a Porsche owner at a stoplight....

 

Let me speak for myself and for the record I can afford just about any car I want, not that it means anything, I prefer to keep a low key with no flaunting, intentonal or not, BMW and MB are not doing that for me. I bought my TLS no money down and pay just shy of $700 dollars a month, don't you think I could have leased almost any BMW or MB I wanted? Feel free to call me out on anything you want, I've got proof for miles. As a matter of fact, my two colleagues cars, the 535xi and MB 350 4 matic, both leased, cost slighty less monthly than what I pay for my TLS, call me cheap, but I am being sensible, and at least I will get a return on my "depreciated asset" of at least $5k come time to trade in when the 6MT arrives. I wouldn't talk just to talk when I doubt you could afford so much as a brand new TL SH-AWD, which is what I am referring to (no disrespect to the FWD), but I would reccomend you do when you can, becuase it is one of the best cars ever made, FOR THE MONEY.

By the way, BMW & Driver writers and editors put in the magazine what their boss tells them to put, it's media marketing or another form of news, and we all know that's bullshit. I wouldn't be here if it was a 335i, but it was a 328i, you have got to be kidding me if you buy into that.

 

I know that i am misunderstanding what you wrote, but are you calling me out and saying that i don't have the money to afford your precious TL???!!

HINT: click on my signature link to see what i drive. Hell, even my Sienna minivan has a MSRP same as your precious TL-SHAWD!! And yeah, ALL of my cars are paid off.

 

Tig, I didn't want it to get to this type of pissing contest, it's pointless, I respect yours and everyone elses opinions even if we disagree, but I wasn't referring to you. Sounded to me like Sonor Kid was trying to qualify many of the opinions here, how could I resist?

 

What you can afford or what you pay per month to drive your TL has nothing to do with my comments, BMW and MB build better cars than Acura to this point in time, that was my point.
The new TL is a great car, most likely the best car Acura has ever built but it isn't a BMW.
It's amazing to see your in depth knowledge of how the car magazines operate, at 26 you must have vast experience in this area, I'm sure BMW pays them to write favorable articles as does Honda or any other car company when they review something positively, please......
You state the TL SH-AWD is one the best car ever made for the money, really?
How did you formulate this? What criteria did you use?
I have a beautiful 2001 CL type S completely modified, a 2008 TL base and a brand new 2009 Honda Pilot EX-L w/res, so I can afford the new TL if I so chose to buy one and who knows I just might.
If I do I won't take offense to the fact that maybe there are other cars that may be better than mine, always something better out there unless you can afford the best.
From what it sounds like you can afford the best but choose to drive the TL, kudos to you.

 

Actually, he does not own his car...the bank does....

 

That's true, good point!

 

No offense man, and none taken, but this is what kind of did it for me. You are a smart dude buying Honda and Acura, you didn't buy them cause you felt they offered you more overall for the money? Not to say cars are not better, but are they worth the extra money to justify the better? Not in all cases. I won't buy an E350 4matic or a BMW 535xi, with the current offerings of Acura in the new TL SH-AWD, nor would I buy the RL for that matter, not saying I would buy it over an M5 or an E AMG, if I was looking for that, big difference.

 

Tig, I could pay off my car, but it's not my style, for the same reason I put no money down, I have my reasons, but I can't give away my financial secrets. Your cars are paid off cause there old, so the Sienna has an MSRP of $42k?, so then you do see what I mean when I say that Acura and the TL offer a huge bargain.

 

Huh?? My G500 is 2004...is that old?? My Sienna is 2008. My TSX is 2009. All old???? Sienna had MSRP of $42k as is the case with the Honda Ody. BTW, NOTHING can beat a minivan in practicality...and well worth the price of admission. If you don't know what you're talking about, then please refrain from commenting....

 

Likewise, and it was a joke.

 

Joke = Otherwise, your comments will be regarded as dumb.

 

It's for my amusement, not yours or really anyone elses, otherwise, ask me if I give a shit.

 

If it is for your amusement, then why post it on a public forum?? That would be just dumb to do. And no, this is not meant as a joke to you.

 

But it sure as hell is funny.

 

Two things along these lines.

Patrick Bedard who wrote the test report was a team driver for Jaguar factory racing & also drove in at least two Indy 500's. He may not be the greatest driver in the world but he is better then anyone in this thread.

Second, if you put 50 TL's & 50 BMW 3 series on a lot. Let 50 people take & keep any car they want. At the end of the day how many TL's will be left?