bungln

took my 2010 tsx (65k miles) in for the oil comsumption test and while talking to the service guy he mentioned that the K&N air filter I have installed will make my car use more oil. I've used K&Ns in all my cars for years and have never heard this. I"m not a mechanic but I'm also not dumb and can't figure out how an air filter will make my car burn oil. Has anyone else ever heard this?
GB

ceb

A properly motivated dealer can tie any failure to the use of any aftermarket part. On the VW and BMW boards we used to play "six degrees of Kevin Bacon" to see which failure can be tied to which modification. We tied aftermarket tire valve stem caps to catastrophic engine failure.

In this case one may be able to tie the different filtration to increased oil pressure which leads to increased consumption.

I have no way of validating if that makes sense but it did tie the failure to the mod in one degree.

ssjoeboe9

<p>lmao.. that's awesome!</p><p>..but no.</p>

BROlando

This isn't even a K&N oil filter? Its an air filter they're claiming causes oil consumption?

I can't really think of any reason why it would. Have you asked for the tech's explanation? Is he maybe claiming that the filter lets more dirt through, and that causes more engine wear?

Or were you mistaken in what you heard? Maybe he was talking about the oil that you use on the filter pleats being burned and showing up on whatever monitor they use for the oil test? That would be valid.

You'll likely never reply....but I think there may be some misunderstanding.

bungln

I"m using a K&N air filter not oil filter.
When I asked him how he came to that conclusion his reply was "it just does". I knew he was covering his ass so when they deny me he'll have something to fall back on. Now I do realize this was just a service manager not a tech but it was pretty laughable that he would think I would buy that.

bungln

why would you think that? not replying?

ceb

You've got to remember that the answer doesn't need to make sense except in the pea sized dealer brain.

It is funny figuring out what hare brained reason the dealer will come up with to deny warranty service.

Unfortunately, there is a valid reason for that. Most dealers have been burned too often by customers who break something and then try to blame it on a manufacturer's defect.

If you break something (or your mod breaks something) then "man up" (or "woman up") and pay for the repair. I broke a trim piece in my GTI a few years back trying to get it off. I went to the dealer, asked to buy a new piece and advice on how to reinstall it (by that time I had retrieved my parking sticker from behind the cubby) and they ended up selling me the piece at cost and put it in for nothing.

ceb

K&N sells oil filters under their name, leveraging on the air filter reputation to make customers think that they are getting some sort of long life product. The oil filter is actually just a rebranded mass market filter (Fram, I think) and nothing special. Consumers are much better off sticking with the Honda branded one which is better quality and usually cheaper.

xtcnrice

<p>Depends. The A01 filters (which have likely discontinued) were made by Filtech and are known to be of good quality. The A02s incorporate many cost-saving measures in the design, and is&nbsp;made by Honeywell (essentially Fram).<br />UBB Message | | Bob Is The Oil Guy</p>

thoiboi

<p>I lol'd at &quot;six degrees of Kevin Bacon&quot;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>also OP.. you're going to STEALERSHIP and they're trying to deflect blame to something 'out of their control' and you seem surprised..? </p>

projektvertx

iTrader: (2)

This. Beware of of the A02. There is a reason I stockpiled the A01 filters.

BROlando

OP is saying that the service manager linked oil consumption to his K&N air filter. Not oil filter.

BROlando

Lol my mistake for misjudging you. 95% of these type of threads die as soon as someone asks the OP a question. Or OP posts once and disappears into the night forever.

Kudos for replying!

ceb

Whoops. I guess it will take more than "one degree" to link the air filter to increased consumption, but we can do it.

Let's see. K&N filters let in more air and dirt. That affects the air/fuel ratio. yada, yada, yada.

ssjoeboe9

<p>1. K&amp;N let's more air in</p><p>2. More fuel is necessary to keep stoich ratio</p><p>3.Causes higher internal engine/oil temperatures</p><p>4. Viscosity of oil changes at high temperatures</p><p>5. Causes ringland failure due to oil viscosity change</p><p>6. Burns oil at higher rate</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>What do I win??</p>

thoiboi

bacon

opboarding

1. K&N filter provides a few hundred extra horsepowers.
2. More power = getting on the gas more.
3. Resulting in higher engine noise.
4. Loud noises stress out chupacabras.
5. When stressed chupacabras seek out engine oil to drink at night.
6. Engine "burns" oil.

ceb

That sounds EXACTLY like the dealer's explanation...

thoiboi

no bacon for you


you had me until chupacabras... I know my dealer NEVER lies to me.. but if they ever mention chupacabras... I'm outta there!

iCrap

dealer logic..... I still can't believe the service manager at my dealer told me my car was supposed to have a dead battery after not driving it for 2 days.
Uh, not it's not you fucking retard....

ceb

The dealer was right. To add to opboarding's post above, when the chupacabras are not stressed, because your car has been parked and quiet for a couple of days, they resort to drinking battery acid, thereby depleting your battery.

briq456

So since the dealer is saying its K&N's air filter which caused the issue, even though there is a TSB and a warranty extension from Acura for the exact issue you are having, have the dealer contact K&N and have them pay for your repair per their warranty:

Engine Protection Limited Warranty
Unlike many companies, our warranty for O/E replacement air filters and intake systems does extend beyond the replacement of a defective K&N part. For the original purchaser of the product, our warranty covers any engine damage or related costs incurred as a direct result of the use of a properly installed and maintained K&N O/E automotive replacement air filter or intake system on the specific vehicle for which the product was designed to be used by K&N. This includes reasonable vehicle repair costs directly related to an engine problem caused by the failure of a K&N product. Furthermore, we warrant that using our product will not result in a vehicle warranty denial. K&N will not be responsible for any indirect, consequential, special, contingent, or other damages not listed above.

We will promptly reimburse the consumer for the cost of the repair if a service provider denies warranty coverage as a result of a K&N product or claims that a K&N product has caused harm to your engine or vehicle. In order to receive reimbursement, we require each of the following:

The consumer must provide a written statement or repair order from the dealership or service provider in which the dealership or service provider blames the problem or warranty denial on a K&N product.
The service provider or consumer must provide K&N with all allegedly damaged parts. Many states have laws that require a service provider to retain all parts replaced during a vehicle repair, unless given consent to dispose of the parts by the consumer. K&N will pay the shipping cost to recover these parts.
The consumer must provide proof of purchase of the K&N product along with cooperation in helping us investigate the claim.
Once these steps have been completed, K&N will contact the service provider and collect evidence to support their claim. In the event we are not provided with sufficient evidence, we reserve the right to reject the claim and will use our best efforts to assist in establishing your rights toward the service provider under warranty or other provisions.

We strive to exceed consumer expectations. Customer service can be reached at 1-800-858-3333.

ceb

There are enough loopholes in that warranty to drive a truck through.

The consumer must provide a written statement or repair order from the dealership or service provider in which the dealership or service provider blames the problem or warranty denial on a K&N product.

Not going to happen. In order for the dealership to deny warranty service they merely need to say "a mod or performance part has caused or contributed to the failure."

At that point, you're stuck. You can go to Acura corporate (which in this case would probably work) and if they side with the dealer then your remedy is small claims court but you're never going to get a written statement that a specific product caused the failure.


The service provider or consumer must provide K&N with all allegedly damaged parts. Many states have laws that require a service provider to retain all parts replaced during a vehicle repair, unless given consent to dispose of the parts by the consumer. K&N will pay the shipping cost to recover these parts.

You'll get a paper bag full of greasy piston rings

The consumer must provide proof of purchase of the K&N product along with cooperation in helping us investigate the claim.

And of course everybody keeps their bill for the air cleaner.

Once these steps have been completed, K&N will contact the service provider and collect evidence to support their claim. In the event we are not provided with sufficient evidence, we reserve the right to reject the claim and will use our best efforts to assist in establishing your rights toward the service provider under warranty or other provisions.

In other words, this warranty only works if the dealership cooperates with us. What are the chances of that?

BROlando

I'm still wondering if the dealer meant that if they were to do a exhaust gas test to check for oil consumption, the K&N air filter's oiled pleats may falsely indicate a higher amount of HC.

The filter has oil on it. The oil gets sucked into the engine and burned. For an exhaust gas test, you *may* see a higher amount of HC.

?? Idk how else to quantify what the dealer is claiming.

ceb

Let me expand on this a bit.

If the dealership denies warranty service (for any reason, including the phase of the moon) and the manufacturer backs them up, then you have two choices - pay to have your car fixed or wait with a broken car and sue the manufacturer.

There is no requirement for the dealer or manufacturer to put the denial in writing or to clearly identify why they are denying your claim (although they'll have to have a valid reason in small claims court or arbitration) so you will not get a statement that identifies the aftermarket filter as the reason for the failure.

If you choose to pay for the repair, then the dealer certainly won't be under any obligation to list the filter as the reason. The WO will just list the items repaired.

K&N and all of the other aftermarket people know this so they can give you all sorts of warranties because they know that you have a snowball's chance in hell of being able to comply with the requirements.

The aftermarket people will cite the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act that prohibits manufacturers from denying warranty claims based upon the mere presence of a substantially similar non-OE replacement part.

There are two problems with that argument. The first is that the act effectively excludes all "performance parts" as they are not "substantially similar" - they are intended to modify performance by definition. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, there is no built in remedy except to sue the manufacturer on your dime.

What the Act has done is keep manufacturers from denying warranty coverage merely because you went to Autozone and replaced the OE Bosch bulbs with the identical Osram or Sylvania bulbs.

In a way, the manufacturer has made it easier for manufacturers to deny warranty service on cars with performance mods because all they need to do now is to show that the part could have caused or contributed to the failure and that it was designed to modify performance.

In this case, the K&N filter is advertised as increasing performance. It also adds the oil which is not on an OE filter. Accordingly - assuming that they can tie the air filter to increased oil consumption - they would prevail under the MM Act.

However, unless there is something glaringly obvious that we are overlooking, the techs at Acura (not the dealership) will recognize that there is no nexus and they will direct the dealer to provide the repair under the TSB.

My advice? Once the dealer denies the warranty service, write a registered letter to Acura and ask them to direct the dealership to comply with the TSB.

tvac

I've been running a K&N in my V6 for >50K miles and have noted no increased oil consumption. This is bull crappies.

ceb

Although the subject is K&N OIL filter, but the body of the post says air filter.

Just to clarify - the dealer was complaining about your AIR filter?

PeterPort

Just got my notification in the mail that my warranty was being extended. My car has never used a lot of oil, but now that the mileage has gone up, I have had to add more between oil changes. I do a lot of city driving, so my MM makes me change the oil very often, (I average an oil change every 3400 miles) I used to go almost the whole service interval without having to add make up oil. Lately, I have noticed that I have had to add more oil between changes. (a quart every 1000-1200 miles) I always use expensive full synthetic, either Pennzoil Platinum or Amsoil. recently switched over to 5W 30 from 5W 20.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Odds are the 5W-30 will disappear as fast as the 5W-20.